Might Some Protestants Reject Catholicism Because They Feel It Is Too 'Easy'?

[jmcrae]

Are you trying to say that the Catholic church hasn’t changed over the years?

The Church is still and always will be the Body of Christ and the respository of His teachings and way of life. Changes in discipline and the sinful actions of particular individuals won’t ever change that.

If you study the history of God’s relationship with people in the Bible, it emphasizes personal faith more than anything.

What we see in the Bible is God’s interactions with leaders. Abraham was the head of a family, which was the leading family of a tribe - he was like a chief. He and Sarah were not wandering through the wilderness all alone - they had a hundred people with them. All those hundred people were being saved by Abraham’s faith and Abraham’s leadership.

Jacob was Abraham’s heir, he was the chief of the same tribe. His twelve sons became chiefs of twelve tribes.

God didn’t go and speak personally to every member of every tribe - He spoke to the leaders, and the record of God’s relationship with those leaders is what we find in the Bible. Not everyone who made camp with Abraham was talking in person to God; only Abraham was. And Abraham was teaching all those people about God, and showing them what God wanted them to do - that was his role, as a leader.

 

[GodIsGracious]

One of the things that Protestants do not understand is that a Catholic, like a Protestant,
believes that they have the Truth in the Catholic church. To try and convince otherwise it to ask us to commit heresy and be in apostasy. Not good. I have already said that I know that Protestants feel they have the truth, but I do not believe they have the truth. And there is nothing that anyone can say that will convince me of that.

Are you trying to say that the Catholic church hasn’t changed over the years?

There have been some things that have changed, yes. However, it’s basic doctrines and core beliefs have not. Please, don’t try to pull that argument. Won’t work.

Are you saying its impossible to be corrupted, infiltrated by bad teachers?

I am saying that the Catholic church is NOT corrupted. However, individual PEOPLE can be corrupted. You’re trying to equate the people who provide service within the church to equal the church as a whole. That’s not so.

Just as I am sure that being a protestant you don’t want to be associated with Jim Baker or Olsteen. Or maybe you do, who knows. Anyway…

Adam and Eve were created in perfection and certainly didn’t stay this way. With my best knowledge of the early Church, I don’t see this starting in complete unity. If you study the history of God’s relationship with people in the Bible, it emphasizes personal faith more than anything.

I’m not saying not to have personal faith.

You don’t have to look to far to see that this is far from being manifest in members of today’s christian Churches. And I see the Catholic church doing more than its share to fall far short on this end. I am encouraged by the many who have demonstrated at Notre Dame, but I challenge all to step up in faith and answer the call we have been given. Of course I don’t discount myself in this. Why do we fight over petty things, like who’s church is purer?

I’m not fighting. I’m simply stating what I believe.

Is your goal to gain members to Christ’s kingdom, or members under your church?

Gain members into Christ’s Kingdom. But I believe that it is more likely to happen in the Catholic church. I pray for the unity of Christians, in the Catholic church.

Christ said he came to divide, if we are seeking Him and His holiness and Truth, some will leave, and some will be drawn. “If two or more are gathered in His name …” Let us seek Christ and come together in unity.

Correct. You’re not teaching me anything or trying to trip me up. And I’ve stated before, there’s no convincing me otherwise.

 

[Peter_J]

James1982;5230975:

What’s better, being a bad Catholic or a good Protestant?

I think the two of them amount to the same thing

I can’t say I agree with you that being a good Protestant amounts to the same as being a bad Catholic – although I do have to admit that the majority of Catholics would probably agree with you.

Indeed, I’ve seen Catholics go a lot farther than your statement, for example the following, which is a quotation from this very forum:

I guess part of my opinion is that most Catholics that I know, don’t know or follow RCC teachings. Even here a lot of Catholics don’t know what the RCC teaches. I do know quite a lot and way more than most Catholics I associate with.

Well, maybe you do but guess what? Their still Catholic and your not

(That’s from the thread Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??) Needless to say, compared with the attitude expressed in that statement, I like your statement quite a lot.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

QUOTE=GodIsGracious;5235821]SpiritMeadow, there is a lot to our posts and clearly there are things we (you and I) disagree on. I can accept the fact that people find their own truths, but not The Truth, outside of the Catholic Church. That tells me they feel they know more than those whose full time job it is to discern truth. So I find it interesting that you mention “consulting experts.” The expert I consult? The Catholic Church, which is guarded by the Holy Spirit and founded by Jesus Christ. That’s a pretty darn good expert.

Well, I guess I would concede that I don’t claim to have the Truth as you explain it. I don’t know as that is definitively capable of being known on this earth. I believe that I have found truth in my faith tradition, one that comports with scripture and tradition and reason. It is fine and expected that you would believe there is no truth outside the RCC. I can see truth there as well as other denominations. It should not surprise you to realize that others have a full time job discerning truth who are not in the RCC. They are every bit as wise as those theologians and biblical experts with your Church. And mores to the point, many of those Catholic experts are not in agreement with Church doctrine all the time. The catholic church universal is guarded by the Holy Spirit, I would agree. Would you really claim that the HS resides nowhere but within the walls of your institution? The HS is there to guide, not compell however, and humans being what they are, error is always possible.

Truth doesn’t change, it stays Truth. Even a logician will tell you that. This is why I know Protestant churches don’t have the truth. Further, just because a whole bunch of people practice something that is against the Catholic Church’s teaching doesn’t mean the Catholic Church should bend to the will of the people. To me, that’s like saying God should accept people for anything they have done. And we know the Jesus does not teach this.

Ultimate truth probably doesn’t change, but our understanding of truth is changing every day and every century. We learn more, realize error in thinking, revise, reform and correct. We hopefully continue to add to a clearer understanding. As Paul said, “know we see as in a mirror dimly.” I don’t know why you conclude that this somehow eliminates any Protestant denomination. The old argument that because it’s popular the RCC can’t adopt is a straw argument. Nobody claims that any Protestant differences are the result of popular decision. They are the result as you would expect of proper and thorough exegesis and analysis of existing documents and theory. And I submit that Jesus taught exactly what you claim he did not. Everyone is to be accepted as God’s beloved. Jesus said God makes the rain to fall on both the evil and the good, indicating that his love was not limited. And I believe God does accept everyone for anything they have done. It is called forgiveness I believe.

I don’t know how else I can explain that if I were to admit or even believe that Protestants have the truth it would be denying Christ. It would be saying that the Catholic Church isn’t the only one with the truth - which is what you are saying. I’m saying it is the only one with the Truth. And that is why if I said or believed or admitted that Protestants have the full truth is denying Christ. Now, I WILL say that I know that Protestants themselves believe they have the truth, but that’s not saying that I believe they have the truth.

You need not explain further. I don’t think your church requires that you reject everything that is non Catholic however. And I think it has said that itself on many occasions. I think your belief that the RCC is the only one who has truth is not doctrine, but your faulty belief, perhaps engendered by a few over zealous types here. As to the full truth, now I suspect you might be on firmer ground with your faith. But as I said, no one expects you to believe that your church doesn’t have truth. I am always at a loss why if you believe your church has truth, why it is somehow necessary to believe that others do not. Why must there be an enemy? Is it too awful to believe that God has graced others beside the RCC?

All of that being said, there are some things that I don’t necessarily like about what the Church teaches. I too believe this more to a marriage than breeding - which is one example I used. Where I’m coming from is this: Christ started His Church on Peter. He promised He would be with us to the end of the age. He promised that it would be protected, “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” I will trust the Holy Spirit before I trust some other man made institution. Which is what protestant denominations are.

The danger to me would be in believing that God doesn’t have the right to give his grace as he wishes and that any institution is somehow not man-made. As I said, I don’t understand this rabid need to vilify one side in order to feel good about one’s own. That seems to be the way of the ultra orthodox. It is not for the rank and file RC to be sure, but seems part of the ultra conservative package. I find it devisive, and not entirely understandable. Blessings,

 

[SpiritMeadow]

In Protestantism, there are no resources to guide you on what might be grave sin, or where to go for help. You can make an appointment with your pastor, but he is a busy man with a family, and you don’t like to bother him with your embarrassing little problems.

First it is unwise to speak of Protestantism. That is lumping a lot into one basket and you surely will be in error no matter what you say. As to the Episcopal Church: We have all the resources you have. We have a catechism, a bible, and tradition, all speak to issues of sin in various places. Your claim has no basis. We of course know exactly where to go, to our priest. We have public confession every Sunday and we can have a private confession for the asking. Your self-serving remarks about him being busy are just silly and can’t be taken seriously. You attempt to belittle the process apparently. My problems are “embarrassing and little” while yours are what?

With the Catholic Church, there are printed Examens in almost every pamphlet rack, and Confessions are available at least every Saturday, and the priest is there waiting for you

 

[guanophore]

And of course you know tens of thousands of godly, brilliant men and women reject RCC doctrine as abhorant and incapable of leading a man to true salvation. That is a sad and sobering thought.

Indeed it is. What is even sadder is that some of them call themselves Catholic.

But…regarding being too hard or too easy, I see it as easy in the sense that you do not have to have the Holy Spirit enlightening or energizing you at all to practice the religion of the RCC.

Such a statement reflects your ignorance of the Catholic faith.

You just do it, and you can do it over and over again. You do not need to be regenerated, you do not need to be saved (indeed you can never know if you are saved in the RCC system) But of course, you never measure up to the standards. You just keep trying.

You sound very much like a person who was bapized Catholic, but never understood the faith. Perhaps you were poorly catechized? What you are describing here is “a form of godliness without the power therof”. This is not Catholic.

That takes us to the fact that it is also hard…but for a different reason. It is hard because until you see the truth about the atonement and the finished work of the cross, paying for your sins, you cannot be born again, even if you are baptized a hundred times and take mass every day

I agree that one cannot “see” until one apprehends the truth about the atonement.

However, the Apostles taught “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. Baptism is not to be repeated. Also, no one 'takes Mass". The Mass is an entry into the suffering and deliverance that Jesus accomplished for us on the Cross. We receive Him, we don’t “take” Him. He offered Himself. We accept and participate in His sacrifice.

…in my humble opinion.

Having just read a collection of your posts on various threads, I find you anything but humble. You seem to have a great deal of prejudice toward Catholics, and arrogance.

 

[RevDrNorth]

In Protestantism, there are no resources to guide you on what might be grave sin, or where to go for help. You can make an appointment with your pastor, but he is a busy man with a family, and you don’t like to bother him with your embarrassing little problems.

In Protestantism, or at least in the forms that I’m familiar with, you have these little meditation booklets that you take home with you, and you’re on your own with it - there’s nothing going on at the church to help you, if the building is even open during the week at all, other than the business office, for booking funerals and weddings, etc.

We have to be careful about generalizations. I could just as easily say Catholicism is easy without commitment since the churches I have visited have about half the congregation come after service has started and leave before it is completely finished. They attend no bible studies or anything else spiritually edifying until the next Mass at which they spend around 45 minutes (come late leave early). No fear because without any real commitment they just make sure they get their ticket punched and follow the rites of the church and get last rites when they die. Whereas evangelical Protestants require life changing commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This includes not just making a profession of faith but living it through developing depth to one’s spiritual life. Evangelicals are deeply involved in developing a prayer life and fervent daily personal scripture reading that is re enforced by weekly bible study at church and sometimes other groups away from church. It makes Christianity a part of your life not just a Sunday ticket punching event.

See all above if true to a certain extent but are generalizations. I think we need to be careful.

PS A Protestant would say they do have something to guide them…the Bible. Then you would say how do you interpret it…we have many theologians who have assisted in clear logical, historical, and original language based interpretation. Where there are differences you use discernment. I do that and consult different Systematic theology texts. God gave us a mind to use. Heck there are disagreements between Catholic theologians. Look at the study notes in the NASB compared with other Catholic writings. Some of the notes make appear to suggest the bible is not accurate. The bible is the infallible, inerrant Word of God.

I have a great deal of respect for the Roman Catholic Church. It has huge faults as do non Roman Catholic Churches. We can learn from one another. That is why I have many books by Catholic writers as well as Protestant and own and have used the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Peter_J]

We have to be careful about generalizations. I could just as easily say Catholicism is easy without commitment since the churches I have visited have about half the congregation come after service has started and leave before it is completely finished. They attend no bible studies or anything else spiritually edifying until the next Mass at which they spend around 45 minutes (come late leave early). No fear because without any real commitment they just make sure they get their ticket punched and follow the rites of the church and get last rites when they die. Whereas evangelical Protestants require life changing commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This includes not just making a profession of faith but living it through developing depth to one’s spiritual life. Evangelicals are deeply involved in developing a prayer life and fervent daily personal scripture reading that is re enforced by weekly bible study at church and sometimes other groups away from church. It makes Christianity a part of your life not just a Sunday ticket punching event.

See all above if true to a certain extent but are generalizations. I think we need to be careful.

I agree, very careful.