Mike Gendron attacks Eucharistic Adoration

[Nathan_Wagar]

You may be here just to spew your opinion but I hope to learn and grow, in spite of those that just want to argue.

Cool your tone, dude. Apparently you jibe with Church doctrine but haven’t quite sat down and thought of the implications. Do a little research on when the host stops being Jesus. The documents are out there. Now put 2 and 2 together. The host became blessed in the context of the mass. If the host is reserved after the mass, it’s still Jesus. So use your brain a bit more, and stop asking people on the forum to be helpful and do your research for you just so you can shut your brain off, act snide and say “nuh uh.” That problem you’re having about belief? It’s the same one as the people had in John 6. As I stated before, decide who you’re going to believe.

 

[gtrenewed]

Did you bother to read my study The Eucharist IS Scriptural? It offered both scripture and citation of ECF Ignatius of Antioch. Moreover, do you not recall the early church martyrs who died rather than surrender the Eucharist to pagans seeking to desecrate it? If they did not believe in the Real Presence then what were they dying for? Martyrs for the Eucharist - Catholic Answers Forums, Eucharistic Martyrs, & A Modern Martyr of the Eucharist.

Never denied the real presence, please read my posts with thought and not just for debate!

You must not have been paying attention then, because I remember the 40 hours devotions in my parish and I am from pretty much that same era. As for history see Perpetual Adoration from the Catholic Encyclopedia which states that there is discussion of it as far back as St. Augustine, but goes on to say that it apparently wasn’t widespread until about circa the 13th century.

Maybe not but what I remember is the opening of the tabernacle but I don’t remember it as it is done today.

As far as your Perpetual adoration reference, it supports the sparseness of it until the 17th century and that for special occasions only.

 

[Michael_Francis]

[IMG ]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr.gif[/IMG]

Remain charitable in all postings or…

 

[mark_a]

Pray for this man… He is baptized into the Body of Christ and thus is even more subject to judgment (James 3:1).

Sub

He’s a wannabe. He can’t claim the heavyweight title by going after Charles Stanley.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Other than saying that it is logical that since the Eucharist is God in the Mass, we can sit apart from the Mass and worship this Eucharist as God, I have no reasonable defense.

Why do you need more than that? The Eucharist is God. It is God as long as it retains the form. Your peculiar idea of the mass as being a necessary context for the host to remain Jesus, and therefore worthy of worship, is simply not supported by Church teaching.

Our faith and traditions come from the teachings of the Apostles. To see how to carry out these teachings we look to the early church actions since they knew the Apostles. To say that they did not know Jesus as God is clearly contradicted in Scripture directly, i.e. Thomas says my Lord and my God. It may not have been codified in a legal context, but by the Holy Spirit the Apostles knew and taught such.

No my friend. To see how it is carried out we look to the Church. The Church is not “the early fathers plus us.” The Church is an organic bride that has grown and matured throughout the centuries, and our worship will reflect a deepening understanding of the mysteries. Re-read what I said about the nature of dogma, slowly.

When I ask for early church reference I am asking for what the Church once and always believed and that is not being flippant nor simplistic. Your reference to the O.T. showbread is thought provoking but they still did not worship the bread. The problem here with me is in believing in the real presence in the Mass for consumption, I do, and worshipping what is left over.

Why would they worship the bread of the face? The point was to show it as a type of Christ, who we would worship, and how the similar practices of reverence and reserve can be readily seen today, as Christ is much greater than the shadows he fulfills. Worshipping what is left over? When does the host stop being Jesus? I know what the Church says. Do you accept it?

They are not referring to what we call Eucharistic Adoration. Keeping in reserve and adoring here are speaking about worshipful consumption. If we don’t consume, we are to worship as if we are but this is in the context of the Mass.

No keeping it in reserve is not referring to worshipful consumption. It refers to keeping it in reserve. As in mass is over. It’s a lot more simple than you seem to get. Augustine says we adore the host. If the host does not cease to be Jesus as long as it is in the form of bread, then you tell me when to stop adoring? When mass is over? Where do you get that odd idea?

Cheap correction. Let me ask you when Jesus returns will we see a host upon a white horse? The mystery of the Eucharist is little understood and deserves meditation for sure. We used to sit in church to meditate on the artifacts there. The crucifix, the statues, the tabernacle and the stations help to focus meditation. These artifacts though were not worshipped. I know it sounds illogical to say that the Eucharist is God and to question worshipping the Eucharist outside of Mass but that is where I am at. I can meditate on the Eucharist as God outside of Mass but it seems like there is a line I am crossing to actually worship the Eucharist while displayed in a monstronce outside of Mass.

Actually no, it’s a frighteningly valid correction. The host isn’t an artifact. It’s God. And the Holy Father as well as other theologians have written some interesting literature on the “unveiling” of the host at the end of time, when we will see Him as He is. You either accept Church teaching on what the host becomes, or you don’t. You wouldn’t be the first for whom the Eucharist is a stumbling block.

 

[Church_Militant]

Never denied the real presence, please read my posts with thought and not just for debate!

Then I suggest that you do the same to mine. I never said that you denied anything…I simply pointed out that all 3 aspects of Divine Revelation agree about the Real Presence.

Maybe not but what I remember is the opening of the tabernacle but I don’t remember it as it is done today.

That is kinda irrelevant since all it shows is that your memory may be faulty.

Answer me this then, aside from the length of time the Eucharist is exposed, what is the difference between 40 hours adoration and Perpetual Adoration. IOW what is the intent of both events?

As far as your Perpetual adoration reference, it supports the sparseness of it until the 17th century and that for special occasions only.

Regardless, since it’s a liturgical discipline approved by the Church and is greatly encouraged by Popes, Bishops, (including Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen whom both of us can well remember, who spent an hour a day (at least) before the Blessed Sacrament and attributed it with helping him be who he became.)

Note here the following statement from Pope Benedict XVI from SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS The practice of eucharistic adoration:
Adoration and Eucharistic devotion
The intrinsic relationship between celebration and adoration
66. One of the most moving moments of the Synod came when we gathered in Saint Peter’s Basilica, together with a great number of the faithful, for eucharistic adoration. In this act of prayer, and not just in words, the assembly of Bishops wanted to point out the intrinsic relationship between eucharistic celebration and eucharistic adoration. A growing appreciation of this significant aspect of the Church’s faith has been an important part of our experience in the years following the liturgical renewal desired by the Second Vatican Council. During the early phases of the reform, the inherent relationship between Mass and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament was not always perceived with sufficient clarity. For example, an objection that was widespread at the time argued that the eucharistic bread was given to us not to be looked at, but to be eaten. In the light of the Church’s experience of prayer, however, this was seen to be a false dichotomy. As Saint Augustine put it: “*nemo autem illam carnem manducat, nisi prius adoraverit; peccemus non adorando *-- no one eats that flesh without first adoring it; we should sin were we not to adore it.” (191) In the Eucharist, the Son of God comes to meet us and desires to become one with us; eucharistic adoration is simply the natural consequence of the eucharistic celebration, which is itself the Church’s supreme act of adoration. (192) Receiving the Eucharist means adoring Him whom we receive. Only in this way do we become one with Him, and are given, as it were, a foretaste of the beauty of the heavenly liturgy. The act of adoration outside Mass prolongs and intensifies all that takes place during the liturgical celebration itself. Indeed, “only in adoration can a profound and genuine reception mature. And it is precisely this personal encounter with the Lord that then strengthens the social mission contained in the Eucharist, which seeks to break down not only the walls that separate the Lord and ourselves, but also and especially the walls that separate us from one another.” (193)
***

---

The practice of eucharistic adoration
67. With the Synod Assembly, therefore, I heartily recommend to the Church’s pastors and to the People of God the practice of eucharistic adoration, both individually and in community. (194) Great benefit would ensue from a suitable catechesis explaining the importance of this act of worship, which enables the faithful to experience the liturgical celebration more fully and more fruitfully. Wherever possible, it would be appropriate, especially in densely populated areas, to set aside specific churches or oratories for perpetual adoration. I also recommend that, in their catechetical training, and especially in their preparation for First Holy Communion, children be taught the meaning and the beauty of spending time with Jesus, and helped to cultivate a sense of awe before his presence in the Eucharist.
Here I would like to express appreciation and support for all those Institutes of Consecrated Life whose members dedicate a significant amount of time to eucharistic adoration. In this way they give us an example of lives shaped by the Lord’s real presence. I would also like to encourage those associations of the faithful and confraternities specifically devoted to eucharistic adoration; they serve as a leaven of contemplation for the whole Church and a summons to individuals and communities to place Christ at the center of their lives.
***
(Cont’d)*
**

 

[Church_Militant]

Forms of eucharistic devotion
68. The personal relationship which the individual believer establishes with Jesus present in the Eucharist constantly points beyond itself to the whole communion of the Church and nourishes a fuller sense of membership in the Body of Christ. For this reason, besides encouraging individual believers to make time for personal prayer before the Sacrament of the Altar, I feel obliged to urge parishes and other church groups to set aside times for collective adoration. Naturally, already existing forms of eucharistic piety retain their full value. I am thinking, for example, of processions with the Blessed Sacrament, especially the traditional procession on the Solemnity of* Corpus Christi*, the Forty Hours devotion, local, national and international Eucharistic Congresses, and other similar initiatives. If suitably updated and adapted to local circumstances, these forms of devotion are still worthy of being practiced today. (195)

 

[gtrenewed]

It is time for me to leave this thread. I havve been accused of being insulting. I felt insulted and so I responded. Not turning the other cheek for sure, my apologies.

I sincerely came to this thread to learn as I said in my first post. I admit that I feel that saying to a host contained monstrance “you are my Lord and God” crosses a line in my mind, even though I believe it remains the real presence. I say at every mass following consecration, my Lord and my God, to the real presence to be consumed. That seems enough and it seemed enough to the early disciples to obey the command of take and eat, take and drink of the Body and Blood of Jesus.

I submit to the Church and the evolution of understanding but I think it crosses a line. I am not saying I am right, especially since many more who are brighter than me support it, that is why I came here to put forth my thoughts and see what came back. I don’t take exception to anyone who participates in Eucharistic Adoration, I think they are taking advantage of an approved discipline.

I don’t think it wrong to question what one believes in an honest manner intending to learn. A few on this forum have helped greatly leading me home, sadly none on this thread have. Discourse is more than throwing out facts and trying to intimidate with inuendoes and sarcasm. Sadly, I respond with the like. I will continue to meditate on this and look elsewhere for discourse.

 

[yrojas]

I’m so tired of hearing these preachers bash the Catholic Church. Bible only?
Then read it…ALL OF IT. Don’t just pick out this and that. They truly tire me
with their rhetoric. Preach to those who don’t take the time to search for theirselves
and depend on preachers such as this Gendron guy to tell them what they
should believe. These so called “Scripture only” people can’t even agree with each
other…thus over 2,000 “Scripture only” religions.
One Church, one beautiful Church. Ours!!

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

Sad that not only does he, and others like him, deny the validity of prayer before the Eucharist but that the Sacrament is te actual Body and Blood of Christ. John’s Ch 6 uses the word “chew on” not the ordinary word to “eat” and the fact that Jesus insisted on that and did not back off when challenged -some walked away and Peter gave the correct, may we say Catholic answer, to whom shall we go. This kind of anti-Catholic bigotry and efforts to undermine their view of “ecumensm” is unworthy of them. We shall stay with the words of Eternal Life and attend Eucharist and try to imitate the self-gift which ir requires. Including charity toward bigots!. .

 

[Church_Militant]

Guys, I can certainly understand your distress at Gendron’s propaganda, but remember 1st Peter 3: 8] Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.
9] Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.
10] For “He that would love life
and see good days,
let him keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from speaking guile;
11] let him turn away from evil and do right;
let him seek peace and pursue it.
12] For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil.”
13] Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right?
14] But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,
15] but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;
16] and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
17] For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong.

It’s important to remain calm and prayerful when confronted with stuff like this because that is where the Holy Spirit is strongest and nothing is gained from heated responses.

Certainly, Gendron and others propagate lies and misinformation, but one of our very best responses is always the peaceful and assured response with the truth. People see and hear that and it shows them the image of Our Lord in our witness and has great effect. Ultimately Gendron works against his own mission because every time he comes out with some more a-C propaganda, someone like me or thousands of other informed and faithful Catholics do precisely what I and others have done in this thread (and in other articles on my Apocalypsis blog and other good Catholic blogs.) we calmly take the misinformation apart and offer the truth.

People who may be following his stuff see this and (if they are honest) have to ask themselves if he knows what he’s talking about and if not why? Confronting these truths is used by the Holy Spirit to draw them to conversion.

Remember: [BIBLEDRB]Proverbs 11:30[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[maximus]

Ah Mike Gendron, the man who claimed if you catch him in a miss-representation that he would retract it and the once caught would never do it. He is a professional Christian who makes a living by attacking the Catholic Church and who is not particularly concerned about facts.

A prayer group I belonged to back in 2006 put together this book response to a one of his articles and caught him in 3 miss-representations which he refused to retract.

lulu.com/product/paperback/how-catholics-read-the-bible/450690?productTrackingContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/2

God Bless

 

[Church_Militant]

Ah Mike Gendron, the man who claimed if you catch him in a miss-representation that he would retract it and the once caught would never do it. He is a professional -]Christian/-] anti-Catholic who makes a living by attacking the Catholic Church and who is not particularly concerned about facts.

A prayer group I belonged to back in 2006 put together this book response to a one of his articles and caught him in 3 miss-representations which he refused to retract.

lulu.com/product/paperback/how-catholics-read-the-bible/450690?productTrackingContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/2

God Bless

Just one small correction.

 

[bksumm]

I appreciate all the posts…wanner47 your email debate with Mike was excellent. I think skilled Catholic appoligists should continue to charitably engage him in the interest of the truth. His misrepresentations are personal with me. When I converted to The One Holy Catholic Church, some in my family attempted to “educate me” using Mike’s polemical attacks against the Church. I, however, didn’t/don’t find his misleading polemics convincing.

 

[Church_Militant]

I appreciate all the posts…wanner47 your email debate with Mike was excellent. I think skilled Catholic appoligists should continue to charitably engage him in the interest of the truth. His misrepresentations are personal with me. When I converted to The One Holy Catholic Church, some in my family attempted to “educate me” using Mike’s polemical attacks against the Church. I, however, didn’t/don’t find his misleading polemics convincing.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

Trying to have rational discussion with people who are not only anti-Catholic but make a career out of it remind me of an earthy gem of wisdom from the Ozark Mountains. “One cannot win a urine contest against a skunk.”

 

[terrig]

When I was a kid in the 1960’s, we did have Eucharistic adoration. It was usually after a high Mass and the priest would bring out the blessed sacrament. Even then I knew it was Jesus in the form of the host. (This is for the person who said Eucharistic adoration was not done in the 1960’s). As far as I can remember, we didn’t have a separate area or chapel for Eucharistic adoration because the Sacred Host/hosts were in the church tabernacle. If you wanted to do adoration, you just went to the church (at least the church I grew up in). Only after Vatican II, did the Sacred Host get moved to chapels. I guess it’s a good thing since there is no more reverence in churches now. At least in the chapel, we are quiet and able to pray without interruptions. I have been doing Eucharistic Adoration for a few months and there are so many graces one gets from doing this. I reflect on how sad Jesus was when the apostles fell asleep and he asked - can’t you stay awake one hour with me. I believe I am in the presence of Jesus and the feeling is different than when I pray at home. Never I have thought I was worshiping a piece of bread. I guess this is what you call “Faith”.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

When I was a kid in the 1960’s, we did have Eucharistic adoration. It was usually after a high Mass and the priest would bring out the blessed sacrament. Even then I knew it was Jesus in the form of the host. (This is for the person who said Eucharistic adoration was not done in the 1960’s). As far as I can remember, we didn’t have a separate area or chapel for Eucharistic adoration because the Sacred Host/hosts were in the church tabernacle. If you wanted to do adoration, you just went to the church (at least the church I grew up in). Only after Vatican II, did the Sacred Host get moved to chapels. I guess it’s a good thing since there is no more reverence in churches now. At least in the chapel, we are quiet and able to pray without interruptions. I have been doing Eucharistic Adoration for a few months and there are so many graces one gets from doing this. I reflect on how sad Jesus was when the apostles fell asleep and he asked - can’t you stay awake one hour with me. I believe I am in the presence of Jesus and the feeling is different than when I pray at home. Never I have thought I was worshiping a piece of bread. I guess this is what you call “Faith”.

===============================+++++=========

Happy first anniversary on here, Great witness to the Eucharist. We had 40 Hour devotions aas far back as I recall and that was way before 1960. The 24/7 in some churches today is fairly new. used only be in special contemplative convents such as carmelite nuns whose chapel was partly accessible to the public

 

[swamiji]

If this priest O’Brien is a catholic he would not have made a comment like this.Even if he is a catholic, whom we would have to consider seriously. Him or the Pope?If the priest brings down Jesus from heaven, to be immolated at the altars around the world, requires thousands of Jesus, sounds ridiculous.It is not the word of the priest but the word of our Lord makes the big difference.Here the substance itself is changed.It is not like his second coming.

 

[mountaintop]

Do you think Gendron Knows what he’s attacking? Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” :shrug

if the eucharist is only bread did any miricales in the bible ever happen? you are what you eat.