Militant Religiosity

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The point of my original question was not going to war–but smoothing our daily social interactions by practicing a little self-control and humility in the public square.
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Sorry I guess I kinda followed the thread drift. However there is a reason we often call ourselves “Christian Soldiers”, and we, here on earth, are referred to as the Church militant.

Again, referring to G.K. Chesterton’s quote about doing things poorly, the problem is people are more concerned about doing the job perfectly, and since they find that difficult, the job gets left undone.

I come from a large family. Throughout our small town we had a reputation for arguing amongst ourselves. We did a very poor job of getting along, and many people found it entertaining to hang around with us just to watch us interact. But we are now adults, and we still love to get together, there are NO huge family spats.

Compared to some families I know that “got along” much better than we did, but now that they’re adults there are brothers and sisters who won’t speak to each other.

My own sister-in-law once said that she was horrified at how two of us brothers could be shouting at each other, turning red in the face, veins popping out of our necks, then 5 minutes later we’d both hop in the car to go fishing. Now she envies how we all get together with little or no bad feelings, yet her own brother and sister haven’t talked to each other for years.
 
Black Jaque:
…I come from a large family. Throughout our small town we had a reputation for arguing amongst ourselves. We did a very poor job of getting along, and many people found it entertaining to hang around with us just to watch us interact. But we are now adults, and we still love to get together, there are NO huge family spats.

My own sister-in-law once said that she was horrified at how two of us brothers could be shouting at each other, turning red in the face, veins popping out of our necks, then 5 minutes later we’d both hop in the car to go fishing. Now she envies how we all get together with little or no bad feelings, yet her own brother and sister haven’t talked to each other for years.
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I think perhaps you’ve touched on the two extremes. Being brutally honest and aggressive in defending one’s interests/position/beliefs can be a form of selfishness that alienates, not reforms most listeners. Conversely–witholding all reaction, being “politically correct” and/or swallowing the bad behaviour, bad judgment and slights from others can also serve to build walls between people and distance individuals from each other.

I guess it is the perpetual challenge of human interaction to find that healthy blend of honest discourse and exchange of ideas/values balanced against accepting the fact that no two people are always going to see eye to eye on how to handle a given dilema (even if they’re both Catholic!). I think sometimes it comes down to being able to honestly say–I’ve explained my position, I understand yours, but we’ll have to agree to respectfully disagree on this matter.
 
Island,

Actually I would say the biggest mistake in an argument is to get into it thinking that you’re going to see the other person “give up” and say “you win”.

As long as you approach it that way you’ll be fine. If I cream someone in an argument I don’t expect them to cry uncle. I just let them walk away. I expect the same courtesy when I’m getting creamed.

That’s the way many of these threads go. They boil for a while, then fade away. I honestly do not feel hostile towards anyone - but maybe I should be watching my back?
 
Island Oak:
I had an interesting conversation with someone of a more mature generation than myself about current practice/observance of religion–particularly in public places/society. She noted that in previous generations, people participated actively (and more routinely) in their faith, but almost never discussed it outside of their own family or faith community–considering it to be rude and/or an inappropriate topic in social, much less professional settings. She went on to conclude that the current phenomenon of people “aggressively” and publicly declaring their beliefs and moral imperatives is just another indication of the decline of polite, civil society and the pervasive self-absorbed, self-centered culture in which we live.

It was a new perspective for me–particularly since it came from a very devout, life-long Catholic lady, but I think she may be on to something.
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I definitely agree with your friend! The societal degradation began in the 60’s when Kruschev boldly told Kennedy that they, implying communists would take this country over without firing a single shot. I don’t even think Kruschev knew how prohetic that statement was. Liberalism has pervaded every facet of our society attacking the core values and morality on which this country was founded. They are a clever and tenacious bunch with the patience of Job using that which we hold dear against us. Through the guise of freedom they have seduced the majority into accepting such atrocities as of Roe Vs Wade, gay liberation, and the ‘it takes a village’ concept. Resistance is viewed as malcontented bigotry. We Christians are told we suffer from some hideous phobia if we oppose the liberal agenda. We are reduced to silence or worse yet apologizing for our values accepting culpability as being part of the problem in so much as we refuse to get with the program. Truth, dignity, integrity and honor are no longer fashionable having been replaced by an allegedly far greater ideal: political correctness. That my brothers and sisters in Christ is an oxymoron. It’s time we Christians recommit ourselves to being fishers of men. Our children are worth the effort.
 
I don’t think that past generations had to deal with the technology of this one, which has brought us such easy accessibility to news that informs us daily of the secular attack on faith. In the past, if the Protestant in the neighborhood across town from you spoke poorly of you religion, you might never hear of it, or if you did, it would be passed from many sources. Now, we need only turn on any cable news channel, log on to any internet service, or just overhear talk radio during the drive to work to hear how contentious our world has become. I see it more as a defensive move than an offensive position.
 
Also, I grew up in a large Italian family back before the “revolution” of the sixties, when families were still intact and the many members formed an extended group, sort of like a little family “army”. There really was no need to talk about your faith because everyone you knew was all the same. I think that the devastation of the nuclear family has had an enormous impact on that sense of solidarity that families could take comfort in.
 
You gals seem to value compassion and warm fuzzies more than you value truth.
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I guess it depends on what you want to accomplish. If your goal is to feel that you’ve done your duty as a Catholic to chastise someone who has not followed the tenets of the faith, then taking her to task and making her feel “uncomfortable” when she’s already miserable and has acknowledged that she is going against the church by using ABC is consistent with your goal. Your conscience is clean and you’re good to go. Problem is, she’s not, she’s actually worse off. Who are you to be more concerned with? Again, she knew the truth, that’s why she was confiding using ABC. So, it’s not a matter of valuing compassion and warm fuzzies over the truth. It’s a matter of being concerned about someone who’s at the end of her rope and trying to help her, instead of yourself. There were several better ways to have handled the situation without condoning her choice.
 
There were several better ways to have handled the situation without condoning her choice.
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I agree totally. As long as you’re not condoning her choice. Just because there are several better ways does that mean we should condemn the poor woman who didn’t use one of the betters ways?

Sometimes people do not have a knack for tact. Some people are like a bull in a china shop. So the lady stuck her foot in her mouth? Is the damage done so deep that it is irreversible?
 
To the example, I would agree with Black Jacque in that to merely sympathize with the woman is to enable her sin. The very reason she brought it up was beause she is feeling nervous, perhaps guilty about committing this sin. A response that merely seeks to deaden her troubled conscience so that it doesn’t torment her anymore is no act of charity. But neither is beating her on the head with a copy of Humanae Vitae.

I think, as usual that there are gross errors on both sides of the spectrum. The ‘old way’ of keeping your faith to yourself and never talking about it in public is, IMO, a major reason that the baby boomers rebelled against true christianity. They saw it lived out by their parents in a way that was intolerably dualistic. Catholic on Sunday and prayer time, but indistinguishable from the rest of the world the rest of the time. The other side is self-righteousness, which is ALSO the nominal adherence to christianty while discarding core truths (Golden Rule, all have sinned, etc).

As usual, the right thing to do is mighty difficult.
 
I remember listening to Father Corapi tell his story. He said that he was so low, that the only thing that kept him from suicide was that in those days he was taught that all people who commit suicide go to hell, and he was afraid of that.

Nowadays we consider that cold and harsh to teach that suicide is a mortal sin. But calling a duck a duck and a spade a spade certainly saved Fr. Corapi’s life!
 
Black Jaque:
Sometimes people do not have a knack for tact. Some people are like a bull in a china shop. So the lady stuck her foot in her mouth? Is the damage done so deep that it is irreversible?
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Well, since you asked.

The do-gooder decided it was her Christian duty to relentlessly ask this woman about her sex life. Her lack of tact extended far beyond a foot in the mouth episode. A co-worker initiating ONE CONVERSATION gave this other woman, in her mind, liscense to bring the subject up again and again. She informed our co-worker that she shouldn’t consider herself welcome to partake in the sacraments until she was finished using birth control pills. Being that they attended the same parish, the condemened co-worker felt very awkward about even attending mass–even without receiving communion–as this other woman was highly involved, sang in the choir, was on the liturgy team, etc and was quite chummy with the pastor. She ran into the co-worker while at mass, which became her last time at mass, because the co-worker asked, while standing in the gathering space, if she had decided to stop using BCP as she shouldn’t be there otherwise. (Which isn’t even true.) She stopped attending altogether and did not feel worthy enough to go to reconciliation (or that is how she put it to me). As a result, the youngest baby was not baptized. The whole family stopped going. All out of this “Christian woman’s” version of defending the truth. Her attitude continued to be that “we” (the Church) don’t need any “fake Catholics” hanging around…

I don’t think anyone who cannot seemingly find a scrap of charity when ‘instructing’ others in the faith should be doing any teaching. We need to remember that those Catholics who live outside the Church in disharmony are suffering a form of estrangement. And before estrangement happens, usually there is a disappointment. A disappointment in which they feel their needs or expectations aren’t being met or addressed by the Church. However flawed their logic, they are very wounded and hurt souls who ask questions in their heart such as, “Why would the Church want me to risk dying to have another child when I already have three to take care of? Why doesn’t the Church understand how terrified I am of another baby suffering with birth defects? Surely there should be an exception when we have trusted God and this is what He gave us? Didn’t He give me my will to discern what I can handle, and I know that I risk my family’s security if we have another child with financially devastating needs?” We have all heard the questions. Many estranged Catholics act angrily. The Catechism speaks that anger is merely a mask for sadness. An angry Catholic is a very sad one. Instead of snapping at these people about what Church doctrine is–which by in large they already know–we might look at the root of their fear or worry and answer with some insight into the beauty behind our Church’s traditions and teachings. We might think carefully about what would most likely open their hearts to being able to fully hear the truth. No, listening with empathy does not include condoning. Agreeing with sin will never bring true comfort to any lost soul. But relating to them, actively listening, identifying their concerns and responding to those particular concerns with charitable, truthful answers is much more effective. We always need to have the spiritual good of the other person first and foremost in our mind. This does not mean “creaming” them and treating the discussion as an “argument.”

Even in the confessional, the focus is not upon our sin, it is upon God’s MERCY for us. And because God is so intangible to many of us, we often glimpse our first recognizable mercy from the gentle and devout Catholics among us. Just as a young child is more apt to come to his father and admit his wrongdoing if he does not fear being beaten in return, so are we more willing and less fearful of coming to God if we know His mercy and gentleness.

Ignoring charity and excusing a lack of tact or compassion is a serious mistake. Smug self-righteousness or hostility toward sinners striving to make sense of their faith does not win souls. Chastising people with fear of hell or alienating them by making them feel unwelcome might inspire some guilt and confusion, but never a true conversion. If the informed Christian cannot be charitable, maybe they need to go remove the log in their own eye before confronting another about their particular sin.
 
Black Jaque:
I remember listening to Father Corapi tell his story. He said that he was so low, that the only thing that kept him from suicide was that in those days he was taught that all people who commit suicide go to hell, and he was afraid of that.

Nowadays we consider that cold and harsh to teach that suicide is a mortal sin. But calling a duck a duck and a spade a spade certainly saved Fr. Corapi’s life!
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Fear of hell is healthy, but it should not be a weapon used in supposedly trying to convert wayward souls. Hell is a reality. We must also not forget our charity when teaching, listening and instructing others.
 
Island Oak:
I had an interesting conversation with someone of a more mature generation than myself about current practice/observance of religion–particularly in public places/society. She noted that in previous generations, people participated actively (and more routinely) in their faith, but almost never discussed it outside of their own family or faith community–considering it to be rude and/or an inappropriate topic in social, much less professional settings. She went on to conclude that the current phenomenon of people “aggressively” and publicly declaring their beliefs and moral imperatives is just another indication of the decline of polite, civil society and the pervasive self-absorbed, self-centered culture in which we live. have encountered on these boards a very absolute, almost militant strain among some posters. They justify their approach by declaring they are armed with “the truth” and routinely dismiss any disagreement as defensiveness or with some other assault on the character or faith life of dissenting posters. Perhaps it’s merely an over-reaction to the in-your-face exposure of sexuality, materialism, self-gratification, etc. that has also permeated our society. Anyone have thoughts to offer on this issue?
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I never found it necessary to publicly proclaim my religious beliefs until I moved to an area where Catholics are attacked publicly by other Christian denominations. Until that time, my experience was much like the lady you spoke to - to be in your face about religion was considered rude.
 
Princess_Abby…right on!👍

Scare tactics are not the way of evangelizing. I recall as a naive
7th grader, a girl literally chasing me around the hallways between classes, telling me that I could never get married in the Catholic Church unless I make my confirmation. This was 1970. I was so scared I would end up alone and that my Church would not let me back in. I had stopped going to Catechism class because of issues my father was having. Back in the day, you did as your parents told you, and dealt with it. I did go mass when a neighbor invited my sister and I.

I did get married in the Church, and the first thing I asked the priest was…I am 23 and haven’t made my confirmation…will I be allowed to get married in the Church? He said, “Who told you that nonsense? Of course you can get married in the Church!” I told him the story and realized that the “fear” kept me away…as did Princess_Abby’s co-worker. The fear that I was somehow “less than” a “real” Catholic because my dad was having some issues. None of it was true…that girl that tormented through middle and high school was blowing smoke. I have since been deprogrammed of that “holier than thou” “scare tactic” mentality. No one on this earth as “HUMAN BEING” knows who is going to heaven or hell…and no one should “BULLY” anyone into a religion/fath/doctrine based on FEAR.

The choir singing, church involvement, do-gooder is just a dog and pony show. She wants everyone to know what GOOD CATHOLIC she is. If I were there, I would have told her “as a Catholic”…leave that woman alone, mind your business. I would then have “quietly” suggested that the woman who is having problems to visit her physician, get copies of her medical records…and make an appointment with the parish priest IN PRIVATE (with her husband) to discuss this issue. Whatever the outcome “is no ones elses business”…and I’ll tell that busy-body so. If the woman goes up to communion, as is accosted by the busy body as to “why”? I will tell her, “lady…the inquisition is over, mind your business”.
 
To my mind, what people don’t respect are boundaries. It isn’t only Catholics in Society that fail to recognize them.

A brief, untopical conversation in line at the grocery store (“How’s the weather? Gee, this line is long!”) does not give a person license to make comment on the other line waiter’s children (“Why do you have so many? Do you plan on having more?” and the like) and their number, grocery items (excepting, “Excuse me. I was thinking of trying this. Could I please ask your opinion?”), clothes, how the person pays for his or her groceries (credit card, debit card, food stamps or LINK card), and certainly not his or intimate life.

Becoming the co-worker or colleague of person does not give the person right to the other’s personal information. If asked, one should state blandly it simply isn’t a matter for discussion.

Ditto dinner parties. Politics, religion and sex have always been considered boorish at the dinner table.

Until people are such good friends that they have known each other a good length of time, and allowed a reasonable length of time to develop and mature the relationship, these are not topics from discussion on either side.
 
lol, come to my school, tell everyone not to talk about politics, religion or sex, and they’d be like, you’re kidding, right?

In this day and age, you can’t afford not to talk about them. I think sex is always off-limits, and you shouldn’t force politics or religion down someone’s throat. But they can’t be swept under the rug anymore. People need to be educated and be able to ask questions.
 
I have to say I hate militant religiosity. It scares a lot more people away than it scares them to their senses, is what I have seen on campus (no, I don’t have any facts, it’s just what it seems like to me). There’s a time and place for everything, and that includes the title of this thread.

You may act Catholic, and if somebody asks why you do/did such and such, then you can tell them honestly. Like I went to ASL lab, then went to Mass, then came back, explaining to my friends why I missed some of lab when they asked. My asl teacher only caught a part of my conversation, that I was gone, and he asked where, and I said to Mass, it was a holy day.
That’s fine, because they asked.
Also, if somebody is making a mistake, like one of my “friends” told me this morning that she wasn’t a virgin anymore, that she loved her boyfriend, you can encourage them to make the right decision, so I encouraged her that she could stop and then wait the rest of the way until she was married. She said she was going to do that, and I hope that’s true (she’s Catholic).

But don’t stand in front of the student center and yell loudly that we’re all going to go to hell. Too many people dismiss that, or think they’re too far gone to even try to be good.
 
sanctamaria17 said:
lol, come to my school, tell everyone not to talk about politics, religion or sex, and they’d be like, you’re kidding, right?

In this day and age, you can’t afford not to talk about them. I think sex is always off-limits, and you shouldn’t force politics or religion down someone’s throat. But they can’t be swept under the rug anymore. People need to be educated and be able to ask questions.
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We’re not talking just about high school and college age people, who have always discussed the three taboos in detail, whenever and wherever they can. You guys are allowed to do so, for the reasons you stated.

We are talking about allegedly adult people who should know better forcing their views on others without using common sense or even having the correct information, esp. in the matter of Religion. They bring it up whether it is appropriate or not, and use it to hammer others, verbally. As you’ve read, it can cause some real harm.
 
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