Military service and my faith

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hello all

I have looked at this forum a few times and everyone on here seems to offer some really good and insightful advice. I have an extremely important and burning question that I could use other’s opinions on.

I am currently looking very closely into a career as a military officer, many members of my family have been service members and we are all catholic. I really feel like this is my purpose in this world- its all I ever really wanted to do for a very long time. More specifically I am pursuing becoming an air force pilot.
I guess I’ll just ask my big question flat out:
What about having to use lethal force if the situation arose? I am not joining because I want to kill people- I am joining because I want to serve my nation and preserve our way of life. I have heard different views on this- the real commandment is don’t murder and not dont kill, but is there a difference? People have also argued that Jesus would not kill anyone and that as christians we are called to live as he did, so killing is not to be a part of our lives.
I have looked up the mentioning of soldiers in the bible and there is never a really clear answer as to wether or not God and Jesus approve of them, and wether or not christians can be one. I have also done a huge amount of internet research on the topic- some places say yes and others say no.

any advice is very much appreciated!
 
I’m certain you have heard of “just war doctrine”, which you can read about in part in the catechism, and in Aquinas and elsewhere. It even comes up in military science courses, if you do take that path.

Regarding the OT, you have to reconcile the commandments with the examples of people like Saul and David and Joshua - soldiers abound - NT as well.

If you want a more modern view on it, have a look at C.S. Lewis on the subject of pacifism - he was also a soldier (First War) by the way.

If you do join the U.S millitary, you should also consider that your oath of enlistment is to defend the constitution - you are swearing (primarily) to defend a particular political institution and document. This probably doesn’t pose a problem for you, but it’s worth thinking about exactly what you are promising.
 
“I am joining because I want to serve my nation and preserve our way of life.”

I’d suggest answering within yourself, whether or not U.S. military activity in Afghanistan is preserving and protecting the U.S. against future attacks from militant anti-American jihadist Muslims.

If you join the Marines or the Army, you probably will train and serve in Afghanistan. Possibly in places where jihadists will present deadly force against you and your company.

You must retaliate against them with deadly force.
 
seeking_help said:
hello all

I have looked at this forum a few times and everyone on here seems to offer some really good and insightful advice. I have an extremely important and burning question that I could use other’s opinions on.

I am currently looking very closely into a career as a military officer, many members of my family have been service members and we are all catholic. I really feel like this is my purpose in this world- its all I ever really wanted to do for a very long time. More specifically I am pursuing becoming an air force pilot.
I guess I’ll just ask my big question flat out:
What about having to use lethal force if the situation arose? I am not joining because I want to kill people- I am joining because I want to serve my nation and preserve our way of life. I have heard different views on this- the real commandment is don’t murder and not dont kill, but is there a difference? People have also argued that Jesus would not kill anyone and that as christians we are called to live as he did, so killing is not to be a part of our lives.
I have looked up the mentioning of soldiers in the bible and there is never a really clear answer as to wether or not God and Jesus approve of them, and wether or not christians can be one. I have also done a huge amount of internet research on the topic- some places say yes and others say no.

any advice is very much appreciated!
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I think the question you need to ask yourself is: if the U.S. goes to war in a situation that does not meet Catholic just war criteria (e.g. the war in Iraq) what would you do? Would you follow your military orders, as you are obliged to? Or follow Catholic teaching, as you are also obliged to?
 
If I were in your position, i would look at alternatives in addition to the military that may appeal to you. I remind you that every job is a servie to the nation, a teacher perpetuates knowledge amongst the people, a doctor cares for the sick, a plumber ensures that soceity runs smoothly and healthily by ensuring that water and sewage are transported appropriately.

If you find another vocation that suits you well that is good. However if you remain set on military service than go ahead, but only so long as you consider the possible consequences, such as the potential for just war violation, and the circumstances of your service (what your oath is to defend), potential for innocent casualties, and your own strength that you can kill an enemy knowing that they are human if you find the other criterion are satisfactorily filled for your service.
 
There was a similar thread here on CAF a couple of months ago by another young member having the same questions you are having. You might want to research for the thread.

In the meantime, this link might help:

catholicmil.org/

and this one:

milarch.org/

Perhaps seeking out a chaplain currently serving in the military, if possible, that you can perhaps meet face to face would also be beneficial.

The problem with these kinds of threads is that you may not get an unbiased answer because emotions connected to the current situations in Iraq and Afghanistan are still running high.
 
Some of the responses are characatures of the military.

Join the military because you believe your home and way of life (with the people and family contained within) are worth defending. You aren’t making war diplomacy, you’re executing (by a set of rules) orders to achieve objectives to ensure that security. If you aren’t capable of trusting the orders you’re given are lawful AND you are unable to notice illegal orders, then don’t join. Assuming, of course you think our Laws are just. If you do get your wings you will be the aircraft commander of your jet. If something is dorked up (e.g. wrong target , situation changed, etc), you are within your right to not drop/shoot. No one WANTS collateral damage, even the atheists. It looks bad politically.

Joining require trust in others and trust in yourself to make good decisions. if you can’t trust now, or your stop being able to trust, it’s probably time to call it quits.
 
I feel in a similar bind, I want to go with AF ROTC for cybersecurity, but one order might be to destroy another nation’s power grid which would harm civilians, but I want to join in hopes that I could prevent a devastating war.
 
Vince1022 said:
I think the question you need to ask yourself is: if the U.S. goes to war in a situation that does not meet Catholic just war criteria (e.g. the war in Iraq) what would you do? Would you follow your military orders, as you are obliged to? Or follow Catholic teaching, as you are also obliged to?
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How do you come to the conclusion that the war in Iraq violates the just war doctrine? As a service member myself I have asked the same question as the OP. I will link to the full article at the bottom, but here is what I have found from catholic.com (with my own comments in brackets).

“Although these conditions can be formulated in different ways, they may be enumerated as follows: (1) the action itself must not be intrinsically evil [liberating people from unjust persecution (saddam hussein repeatedly tested poison gasses on the Kurds in the north) and no one will debate the fact that he was an outright dictator]; (2) the evil effect must not be an end in itself or a means to accomplishing the good effect (in other words, it must be a foreseen but undesired side-effect of the action) [Peace talks were attempted NUMEROUS times during the First Bush, Clinton, and Second Bush administrations to no avail]; and (3) the evil effect must not outweigh the good effect. If these three conditions are met, the action may be taken in spite of the foreseen damage it will do. [The US has taken great measures to minimize casualties at all costs, and has spent billions if not trillions of dollars to rebuild infrastructure (hospitals, schools, clean water, energy, etc) to provide better lives for the Iraqi’s]”

“…the United States is now committed to the principle of sparing innocent life during military actions. It has repeatedly and sincerely expressed its intent to minimize civilian casualties and to serve as a liberator of captive populations in the War on Terrorism. The U.S. is now committed to the principles of the just war.”

Just because you may not agree with the political reasons for the current military action, know that the sworn service members of this great country are doing what ever they can to do the right thing in a terrible situation.

Source: catholic.com/library/Just_War_Doctrine_1.asp
 
Almost all of my family for generations has served this country. My wife, my oldest daughter, a son-in-law, myself and my second oldest son (a Marine Officer with 20+ years) all Marines.
There is also many of my relatives that have served in the Navy and Army. Many go back to the Revolutionary War and the French Indian Wars.

There is no greater honor than to serve your country.

Its not up to the individual to determine whether or not any particular action meets Catholic standards for a just war. If that idea doesn’t sit well with you then don’t join. Those of us who have served with Honor don’t want you to “sully” the reputation of the fine men and women that have given their lives in service of their country.

This topic is very personel to me so if I have offended anyone, I’m sorry. But I stand by my statements.

Semper Fi
 
Forget the political reasons for the war and think of soldiers. Do you think you could be an asset that will protect and aid your fellow soldiers? Can you be the guy that puts himself in death’s way to save another? The warriors overseas may need someone who can protect them and support them when death is staring them in the eye, if you think you can be that person, than I think you must join.

And BTW despite what many may think our soldiers are their to protect not only our own but the innocent civilians as well. I think it becoming a soldier is a most noble undertaking provided you do it for the right reasons.
 
corsair said:
There is no greater honor than to serve your country.
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For Catholics to serve God (as priest of religious) is greater honor than to serve the country under sometimes questionable rulers.

In 1945 the Russian Army invaded Budapest, the city where I lived with my parents and brothers. : 8, 6, 2 and one in the womb of my mother. The power and water plants were destroyed trough the siege of the city. We prayed every day: Lord, please let us to relieve ourselves quietly. One week after the bombing ceded, the plants with the help and supplies of the engineers of the Russian army were restored, so Lord Cholera and Queen Tiphus claimed only relatively few victims.

In 2003 Baghdad and the Iraqi cities were invaded on the false pretense that Iraq has Weapons of Mass Destruction. The water and electric plans were destroyed and did not restored for months.

Meditate today what would you do living in a city without water and electricity for months. Go for details. Imaging what you drink, how do you relieve yourself. When you finished: ask yourself: what can justify a war causing such problem to the innocent civilians? Can you join a military where this is the norm?
 
It is a fine and admirable thing to serve your country through military service. Many of the opinions expressed here are idiotic, to say the least, and could apply to any civil job in this country. For example, if you were a fireman, would it be a sin to extinguish a fire at an abortion clinic? As a policeman, would it be a sin to protect pro-abortion demonstrators and protect their right of expression?

In military matters, it is the legitimate authority of the commanders to make the decisions as to what hostile tactics are going to be employed. It is the duty of a soldier to follow the orders of his commanders. Now, obviously, orders that are blatantly illegal should not be followed and national laws recognize that a soldier is not required to follow an order that he knows is in violation of national and international law. Any blame, however, does not fall on the soldier himself but on those who issue the orders. As I said before, the same applies to all kinds of civil jobs in our country. Do not let the personal political opinions of those here who lean toward the extremes in politics dissuade you. The Church has always recognized the duty of serving others in the military.
 
Look into the Coast Guard. I’m a Coastie (prior Army) and love it. We are a military service with all the same pay and benefits as the Dept of Defense branches, and we have pilots. In the Army, if we weren’t in a conflict, we were training to go into conflict. Since I joined the Coast Guard, I have been on many search and rescue missions helping people, but also performing law enforcement to keep our waters safe for everyone. I have participated in educating boaters on safety and training people on using emergency equipment. All this as a Machinery Technician (diesel mechanic). We have pilots who are commisioned officers and who fly either helicopters or fixed wing. Maybe an option for military service you could look into.
 
Timothysis said:
For example, if you were a fireman, would it be a sin to extinguish a fire at an abortion clinic?
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No.
Timothysis said:
As a policeman, would it be a sin to protect pro-abortion demonstrators and protect their right of expression?
Click to expand...
No.
Timothysis said:
In military matters, it is the legitimate authority of the commanders to make the decisions as to what hostile tactics are going to be employed. It is the duty of a soldier to follow the orders of his commanders.
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It is the duty of Christians to follow Christ.
Timothysis said:
Now, obviously, orders that are blatantly illegal should not be followed and national laws recognize that a soldier is not required to follow an order that he knows is in violation of national and international law.
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What about the more important (for Catholics) Christian law?
Timothysis said:
Any blame, however, does not fall on the soldier himself
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Why not? Don’t they have free will? Conscience?
 
Vince1022 said:
I think the question you need to ask yourself is: if the U.S. goes to war in a situation that does not meet Catholic just war criteria (e.g. the war in Iraq) what would you do? Would you follow your military orders, as you are obliged to? Or follow Catholic teaching, as you are also obliged to?
Click to expand...
hogwash. It is the place of the US government to determine what constitutes a just war in Iraq. In this regard, the US Government and the US Government ONLY have the right to determine and declare the war in Iraq just.

You need to brush up on your doctrine.
 
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