militia templi

[Barry_Gabriel]

Only certain heads of state could create an order of chilvary. The Prez, for instance, cannot, because he cannot knight anyone or enoble anyone.

While the Templars are defunct, their memory can be inspirational. There would be nothing inherently bad about a group of men organized in their memory and copying some of their practices.

This is true, but the danger is inherent that some could be led astray. For example, the grand master of this “order” quarters his arms (at least I assume they belong to him) with the ancient arms of the Templars. If valid, who gave their grand master the permission to use the arms of the Templars? As the order is now defunct, using these armorial bearings can be very misleading.

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

I have no beef with the Knights of Malta. It’s the Masonic Knights of Malta I find a tad more than spurious.

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

No problem.

 

[Warrenton]

This is true, but the danger is inherent that some could be led astray. For example, the grand master of this “order” quarters his arms (at least I assume they belong to him) with the ancient arms of the Templars. If valid, who gave their grand master the permission to use the arms of the Templars? As the order is now defunct, using these armorial bearings can be very misleading.

Not knowing who grants Italian nobility their heraldic emblems, I could not say for sure. In the UK, I believe it is Lyon Court, but I do know some manors carry the right to use the arms of the place with the fee. Perhaps the count got the right with the manor, and quarters his arms with the manor by some customary privilege. I am speculating.

Even if using the arms is misleading from the point of view of heraldry, I am not certain that that would necessarily pose a moral issue, any more than the words “dominus illuminatio mea” on Oxford’s crest mislead students into thinking the place is some hotbed of scholastic theology. What, for instance, would be dangerous about a group of men meeting in habit, praying the divine office, carrying out charitable works, or holding their ceremonies in an old castle? Certainly, this is at least as benign as a bunch of fake hippies singing hootenany songs at a so-called “folk mass”?

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

Not knowing who grants Italian nobility their heraldic emblems, I could not say for sure. In the UK, I believe it is Lyon Court, but I do know some manors carry the right to use the arms of the place with the fee. Perhaps the count got the right with the manor, and quarters his arms with the manor by some customary privilege. I am speculating.

Even if using the arms is misleading from the point of view of heraldry, I am not certain that that would necessarily pose a moral issue, any more than the words “dominus illuminatio mea” on Oxford’s crest mislead students into thinking the place is some hotbed of scholastic theology. What, for instance, would be dangerous about a group of men meeting in habit, praying the divine office, carrying out charitable works, or holding their ceremonies in an old castle? Certainly, this is at least as benign as a bunch of fake hippies singing hootenany songs at a so-called “folk mass”?

There are two authorities in Britain who grant arms, Lyon Court for Scots and the College of Arms for the rest of them. The Templar arms has nothing to do with either. If the gentlemen involved with this wish to dress-up and do what they want, that’s fine. But they are not Templars.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

This is basically the same argument you posted previously. Whether JP II gave them indulgences, they practice the Tridentine Liturgy, venerate a Templar saint etc. does not mean anything regarding an established Church Order, nor does it impart legitimacy. Last time I checked, the “Templars” were not on the official list of valid orders of chivalry recognized by the Vatican.

Basically, yes - with the addition that the Pope knows about it and didn’t oppose it. Granting indulgences is something Rome wouldn’t do to an invalid association.

And I don’t know if this is an “Order” in the true sense. They are not “Templars” in any sense connected with the historical Templars (who were excommunicated in any event).

Further information on them can be obtained from them directly or from Rome.

As an Eastern Catholic, I’m not familiar with your hierarchy of approval/approbation.

Alex

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

Basically, yes - with the addition that the Pope knows about it and didn’t oppose it. Granting indulgences is something Rome wouldn’t do to an invalid association.

And I don’t know if this is an “Order” in the true sense. They are not “Templars” in any sense connected with the historical Templars (who were excommunicated in any event).

Further information on them can be obtained from them directly or from Rome.

As an Eastern Catholic, I’m not familiar with your hierarchy of approval/approbation.

Alex

His Holiness is not going to oppose a group who appears to be doing good works, and he may even grant indulgences. That doesn’t mean it’s a legitimate order. Who, if anyone, appointed the “grand master?” Did this gentleman just decide to start this himself, and usurp the name of the Templars as well as their armorial bearings? If anyone out there knows if there are annual dues etc., I’d like to hear what they are if they exist. It all smells fishy to me…

 

[Warrenton]

His Holiness is not going to oppose a group who appears to be doing good works, and he may even grant indulgences. That doesn’t mean it’s a legitimate order. Who, if anyone, appointed the “grand master?” Did this gentleman just decide to start this himself, and usurp the name of the Templars as well as their armorial bearings? If anyone out there knows if there are annual dues etc., I’d like to hear what they are if they exist. It all smells fishy to me…

I get the feeling we’re talking around the issue. Let’s cut to the chase, because I would really like to learn your viewpoint.

I agree that they are not “real” Templars. In that regard, the Teutonic Knights and Maltese Knights are not “real;” indeed, most Europe’s nobility are not “real” by the standards of their rather more robust ancestors. Belloc said it best: the only real purpose aristocracy is military. Those days are long gone, and in this mild and simpering age, when the “civilized” nations do most of their killing at high altitude, it would be most unusual for the Pope to summon a gathering of the best men for the express purpose of smashing our enemies. I doubt Prince Laurent of Belgium would be up for a killing spree in Palestine, for instance, even if he were to receive an attractive indulgence for the effort. One can only imagine the derision that the Black Prince would heap on his (very distant) kinsmen in Buckingham Palace were he to return to London today.

So to that extent, most anything noble is “fake.”

With that admission, what the modern Militia Templi do is copy, or “re enact” some of the rituals of the Templars. It seems to me analogous to the English Civil War society “The Sealed Knot,” or the American Civil War re-enactors. If one is inspired by the courage of the real Templars, and by their piety and devotion to the Church, what is wrong with honoring their memory this way?

Is it that you don’t like the memory of the Templars? Or is it that you find it misguided, or foolish, that modern men, who tend to be tepid in most things, would presume to mimic the acts of our far more earnest forefathers in faith? Or something else?

Thank you for a most interesting discussion!

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

I get the feeling we’re talking around the issue. Let’s cut to the chase, because I would really like to learn your viewpoint.

I agree that they are not “real” Templars. In that regard, the Teutonic Knights and Maltese Knights are not “real;” indeed, most Europe’s nobility are not “real” by the standards of their rather more robust ancestors. Belloc said it best: the only real purpose aristocracy is military. Those days are long gone, and in this mild and simpering age, when the “civilized” nations do most of their killing at high altitude, it would be most unusual for the Pope to summon a gathering of the best men for the express purpose of smashing our enemies. I doubt Prince Laurent of Belgium would be up for a killing spree in Palestine, for instance, even if he were to receive an attractive indulgence for the effort. One can only imagine the derision that the Black Prince would heap on his (very distant) kinsmen in Buckingham Palace were he to return to London today.

So to that extent, most anything noble is “fake.”

With that admission, what the modern Militia Templi do is copy, or “re enact” some of the rituals of the Templars. It seems to me analogous to the English Civil War society “The Sealed Knot,” or the American Civil War re-enactors. If one is inspired by the courage of the real Templars, and by their piety and devotion to the Church, what is wrong with honoring their memory this way?

Is it that you don’t like the memory of the Templars? Or is it that you find it misguided, or foolish, that modern men, who tend to be tepid in most things, would presume to mimic the acts of our far more earnest forefathers in faith? Or something else?

Thank you for a most interesting discussion!

I don’t believe you understand what’s going on here, nor do I accept your definition of what is “fake”. First of all, the Knights of Malta are VERY real, and they have the support of the Papacy. The Teutonic Order is now a strictly religious order. I don’t know whether there are still knights. There’s the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre, whose members support a Christian presence in the Holy Land, as well as provide funds for schooling and maintaining the Holy sites in the Holy Land. The Templars however are NOT real, the order having been dissolved by the Papacy after the death of Jacques de Molay. The Papacy validated the order, therefore it could disolve said order. Look on the net and you’ll find a plethora of “Templar” groups, from Masons to con-artists trying to fleece you of your dough. NONE of them are real. There are many valid orders of knighthood and chivalry, who do great works in supporting charities , hospitals, etc.

 

[jravago]

His Holiness is not going to oppose a group who appears to be doing good works, and he may even grant indulgences. That doesn’t mean it’s a legitimate order. Who, if anyone, appointed the “grand master?” Did this gentleman just decide to start this himself, and usurp the name of the Templars as well as their armorial bearings? If anyone out there knows if there are annual dues etc., I’d like to hear what they are if they exist. It all smells fishy to me…

As I mentioned before, I discerned whether this group was part of my vocation. It is a religious community with approval from the Bishop of Sienna . Also, it has approval by the Holy See including a Cardinal Protector who at the time Cardinal Gagnon. They were very interested in me because I am from Chicago and attend St. John Cantius. and were considering having Cardinal George become the Cardinal Protector.

The Grand Master is an Italian Count. I met the former Chancellor who has since entered an FSSP seminary. They are a legitimate group.

 

[jravago]

I respect the Order of Malta, Order of the Holy Sephulcher and my order (St. George), however but my issue is with many of its members who only “join” in order to collect titles and do not attempt to “defend the faith” and are merely nominal Catholics with plenty of money who like to wear capes. That may sound harsh and over critical but it has been my experience.

 

[Warrenton]

I think you misunderstand what I said; or perhaps I was not sufficiently clear.

I am not saying that your mission is not real. I am saying that the concept of nobility is attenuated.

As you say, your order was made up of “noble scions.” (We leave aside their many common helpers, whose service was equally pleasing to the Lord). They were noble because their families, above all else, fought. The noble family who would not or could not fight did not last long in the high middle ages. This of course did not prevent some nobles from pursuing a different course, for example, in the Church, or specifically, in the charitable orders. But the essence of nobility was combative.

To the medieval mind, when a noble man undertook material service to the poor, especially through the Church, the act had a special piety: St. Anthony illustrates the point I am trying to make. Your brother knights from the moyen age were like St. Jerome’s lion: gentle, yes, and holy - but still a lion, possessed of teeth and claws.

When you and your brothers undertake the work of your knighthood, I am guessing most of you do not give up a life of privilege based on the more or less unfettered ability to do violence to others. You are also not, by training and upbringing, tempermentally akin (in the opinion of many modern people) to a sociopath. I hasten to add, lest there be confusion, my firm belief that our medieval predecessors would, could they return to see you, very much appreciate that you carry on their traditions. I think they would like the modern Militia Templi also. But the meaning to them would be distinguishable from the knights of their own day.

The distinction is not our fault, and I think it unfair to charge us with responsibility for the passage of time and changing mores. I am grateful for your service as a knight, and if I were a better man, I would be honored to be a member of your company.

Indeed, I have often asked the myself, like Tess of the D’Urbervilles, why I find myself on the wrong side of the medieval crypt.

 

[Warrenton]

I don’t believe you understand what’s going on here, nor do I accept your definition of what is “fake”.

Perhaps. Let me pose a question to you: do you think Prince Charles noble in the same way that King Richard coer de Lion was noble?

Is the issue whether there exists a strictly corporate continuity from one period to another, or is the issue whether a spiritual affinity exists between an early group and a later group? Which is more important to you when deciding what is “real?”

To clarify my opnion, consider a hypothetical: if a group of Catholic men banded together, lived in common, taking vows to live a monastic life, with the express purpose of waging implacable war on all those who oppress Christians in modern Israel, would they not be more “real” Templars than the modern Knights of the Garter, few, if any, of whom have ever killed an enemy with their bare hands or a blunt instrument, like a mace?

It seems to me that attenuation occurs both when the corporate continuity is lost, or when the original spirit is lost. Many groups outlive their purpose, and are in deed dead though the body remaineth. This was the basis of Cervantes’ critique (or joke) in Don Quixote. If memory serves correct, Christ also said as much to the pharisees, though they did not understand Him.

 

[jravago]

Perhaps. Let me pose a question to you: do you think Prince Charles noble in the same way that King Richard coer de Lion was noble?

Is the issue whether there exists a strictly corporate continuity from one period to another, or is the issue whether a spiritual affinity exists between an early group and a later group? Which is more important to you when deciding what is “real?”

To clarify my opnion, consider a hypothetical: if a group of Catholic men banded together, lived in common, taking vows to live a monastic life, with the express purpose of waging implacable war on all those who oppress Christians in modern Israel, would they not be more “real” Templars than the modern Knights of the Garter, few, if any, of whom have ever killed an enemy with their bare hands or a blunt instrument, like a mace?

It seems to me that attenuation occurs both when the corporate continuity is lost, or when the original spirit is lost. Many groups outlive their purpose, and are in deed dead though the body remaineth. This was the basis of Cervantes’ critique (or joke) in Don Quixote. If memory serves correct, Christ also said as much to the pharisees, though they did not understand Him.

I completely agree. The Militia Templi are living the spirit of the Templars as well as all the other Orders of Knighthoods that existed during that time. May of today’s Order are nothing more than wealthy individuals with nominal beliefs and courage to stand up in defense of Mother Church.

 

[jejwood]

Thanks for the history lesson. I am not aware that this group has church approval. All I have seen so far is papal blessings, which does not amount to official approval. I suggest sticking with the Benedictines.

Mr Gabriel,

I will quote a relevant paragraph from the letter of introduction that our abbot protector, Abbot Philip Lawrence, sends to our local ordinaries upon entering a new diocese, establishing to the ordinary our canonicity.

“The Poor Knights of Christ is a private association of the faithful of diocesan right.* It was erected according to Canons 299, 312 and 322 of the Code of Canon Law.* Founded in 1979 by Count Marcello Alberto Cristofani della Magione under the authority of the Archdiocese of Siena-Colle di Val d’Elsa-Montalcino in Tuscany, Italy; this Order places emphasis on knightly and monastic virtues. As a secular association, it was recognized by the civil government on September 21, 1979.* It received canonical recognition and juridical status on September 8, 1988 by the then Archbishop of Siena-Colle di Val d’Elsa-Montalcino, His Excellency Mario Ismaele Castellano, as a private association of the faithful with the name of Ordo Militiae Christi Templique Hierosolimitani. On November 18, 1990, the then ordinary, His Excellency Gaetano Bonicelli, approved the Rule of the Order with the name “Regola dei Poveri Cavalieri di Cristo dell’Ordine della Milizia del Tempio.”* In English this is generally translated as the Rule of the Poor Knights of Christ of the Order of the Militia of the Temple.* On September 13, 1989, His Holiness John Paul II granted certain indulgences in perpetuity for the important moments in the lives of the members of the Poor Knights of Christ.”

I hope you find this helpful.

 

[Holy_Crusader]

I believe that you are seeking the Holy Militia of the Holy Spirit under the Sancti Cruciferi de Jesum Christum led by the Great Catholic Monarch.

It is not in creation to my knowledge, for it is all based on the Prophecies of Saints and Prophets that have full Catholic Church approval. The one I found the most information was from Saint Francis of Paola. Further proof of these actions that are going to take place is the Chinon Parchment.

Belief in Prophecy is not necessary to be Catholic. I do believe it though, as a Roman Catholic. I have already personally devoted myself as a servent of God and to this particular cause. The Sancti Cruciferi de Jesum Christum (Holy Crusaders of Jesus Christ) is to be the last and most Holy order. They will excel in military arms, science, and most of all, Holiness. They will be led by the Great Catholic Monarch and he will kill all of God’s enemies that fight against the Church, according the Saint Francis (which has full Church approval) he will rule the earth and the one world religion will be Catholicism, until his death in Jerusalem at the Mount of Olives.

If you wish to devote yourself in this cause, you have found a brother servent. You should research what I have divulged to you. Be careful and be brave.

Who is like God!!!