Milk before meat, the mormons may have gotten it right!

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ralphinal said:
As you seem to be intellegent and literate, I suggest that you read the Catachism of the Catholic Church. Purgatory is not about punishment but cleansing. 100% of our faith is out there. You can read it. By the way, 100% of our faith has not been changed from one pope to another. We enver taught that blacks were cursed and could not be priests until public opinion shifted (just an example).
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That’s unfair, and not true!

It was when public policy changed (ie, tax status) that that particular doctrine changed. (see history of Bob Jones University v. United States, Bob Jones University v. Simon, etc)

😃
 
ralphinal said:
I have never seen it in the US, Europe, or South America. TTHere is no doctrine for this. In Alabama, we call it pure crazy.
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I decided only to link to these. If you google “pilgrimage on knees” you will get pages and pages of this stuff.

Where does it come from? What is the doctrine?

The below reference “penance” repeatedly

Ireland:

“For most Catholics who visit Mt. Croagh Patrick, especially on Reek Sunday, the pilgrimage to the top of the sacred mountain is an act of penance. Accordingly, some untake the journey barefoot or even on their knees. The summit has a small chapel where Mass is held each day”

sacred-destinations.com/ireland/mt-croagh-patrick.htm

Canada:

“In the morning, when we got to the basilica, my mother and I stayed in the lower chapel, praying as my father made his way up the stairs on his knees. I said my prayers in a French accent, pretending that I was praying in French. My mother held her silver rosaries. When my father came down to get us, he looked refreshed, young, triumphant. Back at the motel, my mother bathed his raw and bloody knees with iodine, then bandaged them. I was proud, but confused; I thought my father brave in his wounds, but my mother’s unaccustomed tenderness seemed strange, as did my father’s lofty, calm acceptance of her ministrations.”

newyorker.com/archive/2005/04/18/050418fa_fact3

Mexico

"And as the Basilica gets closer, it becomes apparent that there are people approaching it on their knees.

A man with a small baby in his arms shuffles up to the church stairs, only getting to his feet when reaching the base of the Basilica. Behind him is a young girl with a bunch of flowers clutched to her bosom, walking on her knees towards the church.

And to my side, a girl in an orange T-shirt clings to the forearms of a friend standing in front of her as she struggles along painfully.

Towards the gates is a young man of no more than twenty with the legs of his jeans rolled up so as to bare his knee-caps for the concrete ground."

mexicoreporter.com/2007/12/12/mexicos-faithful-make-annual-pilgrimage-on-dia-de-la-virgen/

Italy:

"In Rome:

And finally don’t forget to include in your pilgrimage a visit to the Scala Santa (Holy Stairs) in Rome. This is where Catholic pilgrims for centuries have ascended on their knees in an act of penitence, the same stairs (originally from Jerusalem) that Jesus was led up and down by Pilate several times during His Sorrowful Passion. A Catholic can obtain a plenary apostolic indulgence, applicable to the Poor Souls in Purgatory, every time they ascend these steps on their knees. This sacred site, which is maintained by the Passionists Order, has been considered by several Popes to be the holiest place on earth."

stgemma.com/gallery/eng_itinerary.html
 
ralphinal said:
I’ll take that as a no from the Mormon camp.

You must admit that as an outsider to both religions, they do seem to have similarities.

Not all doctrines openly taught, extra-terrestrial planitary life, humans able to become more than human…
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A quote from one of our former Prophets, Harold B. Lee, is meaningful here:

A few years ago, we had a woman who had written some scurrilous things about the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Mention was made of it here in the conference at that time.) Shortly thereafter, I met someone on the street and they asked me if there had been a revelation or an utterance at the recently concluded general conference that might be considered as a prophecy. And I said, “Did you hear the closing remarks of President George Albert Smith as he closed the conference? If you did, you heard a prophet speaking, and let me tell you what he said.” I happened to have a clipping in my wallet. This is what President George Albert Smith said:

“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.”

No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord.

We have had some who, writing in the public press occasionally, are among those who have fallen by the wayside. They befoul the honored family names that they have. They have disgraced the honors that we had given to them in times past. They are trying to join the forces of the enemy against the work of the Lord. And we can say to them, as President George Albert Smith said then, “Those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of the infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by the leaders of this church and attached to their names, will never die.”​

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
A quote from one of our former Prophets, Harold B. Lee, is meaningful here:

A few years ago, we had a woman who had written some scurrilous things about the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Mention was made of it here in the conference at that time.) Shortly thereafter, I met someone on the street and they asked me if there had been a revelation or an utterance at the recently concluded general conference that might be considered as a prophecy. And I said, “Did you hear the closing remarks of President George Albert Smith as he closed the conference? If you did, you heard a prophet speaking, and let me tell you what he said.” I happened to have a clipping in my wallet. This is what President George Albert Smith said:

“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.”

No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord.

We have had some who, writing in the public press occasionally, are among those who have fallen by the wayside. They befoul the honored family names that they have. They have disgraced the honors that we had given to them in times past. They are trying to join the forces of the enemy against the work of the Lord. And we can say to them, as President George Albert Smith said then, “Those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of the infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by the leaders of this church and attached to their names, will never die.”​

zerinus
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Divine retribution as a way of answering a critical question?

Great tactics!

👍
 
mfbukowski said:
We have discussed all these issues before, my positions and the positions of all are documented

The answers to all your questions are “in a sense, yes, and in a sense, no” The keys to understanding the nuances are what it is all about.
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Or are you too embarrassed to discuss the meat?

the subject of this thread
 
mfbukowski said:
I decided only to link to these. If you google “pilgrimage on knees” you will get pages and pages of this stuff.

Where does it come from? What is the doctrine?

The below reference “penance” repeatedly

Ireland:

“For most Catholics who visit Mt. Croagh Patrick, especially on Reek Sunday, the pilgrimage to the top of the sacred mountain is an act of penance. Accordingly, some untake the journey barefoot or even on their knees. The summit has a small chapel where Mass is held each day”

sacred-destinations.com/ireland/mt-croagh-patrick.htm

Canada:

“In the morning, when we got to the basilica, my mother and I stayed in the lower chapel, praying as my father made his way up the stairs on his knees. I said my prayers in a French accent, pretending that I was praying in French. My mother held her silver rosaries. When my father came down to get us, he looked refreshed, young, triumphant. Back at the motel, my mother bathed his raw and bloody knees with iodine, then bandaged them. I was proud, but confused; I thought my father brave in his wounds, but my mother’s unaccustomed tenderness seemed strange, as did my father’s lofty, calm acceptance of her ministrations.”

newyorker.com/archive/2005/04/18/050418fa_fact3

Mexico

"And as the Basilica gets closer, it becomes apparent that there are people approaching it on their knees.

A man with a small baby in his arms shuffles up to the church stairs, only getting to his feet when reaching the base of the Basilica. Behind him is a young girl with a bunch of flowers clutched to her bosom, walking on her knees towards the church.

And to my side, a girl in an orange T-shirt clings to the forearms of a friend standing in front of her as she struggles along painfully.

Towards the gates is a young man of no more than twenty with the legs of his jeans rolled up so as to bare his knee-caps for the concrete ground."

mexicoreporter.com/2007/12/12/mexicos-faithful-make-annual-pilgrimage-on-dia-de-la-virgen/

Italy:

"In Rome:

And finally don’t forget to include in your pilgrimage a visit to the Scala Santa (Holy Stairs) in Rome. This is where Catholic pilgrims for centuries have ascended on their knees in an act of penitence, the same stairs (originally from Jerusalem) that Jesus was led up and down by Pilate several times during His Sorrowful Passion. A Catholic can obtain a plenary apostolic indulgence, applicable to the Poor Souls in Purgatory, every time they ascend these steps on their knees. This sacred site, which is maintained by the Passionists Order, has been considered by several Popes to be the holiest place on earth."

stgemma.com/gallery/eng_itinerary.html
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So I guess Mormons are not told to pray, sacrafice, and fast by Jesus in their version of the Bible? Some people take it to an extreme, but we are called to first, deny ourselves, then take up our cross and follow Jesus.

Again, it is not Catholic dogma that teaches them to do this. It is an expression of their personal piety. Sometimes, people can be overzelous, and those people need to be protected from themselves.
 
zerinus said:
A quote from one of our former Prophets, Harold B. Lee, is meaningful here:

A few years ago, we had a woman who had written some scurrilous things about the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Mention was made of it here in the conference at that time.) Shortly thereafter, I met someone on the street and they asked me if there had been a revelation or an utterance at the recently concluded general conference that might be considered as a prophecy. And I said, “Did you hear the closing remarks of President George Albert Smith as he closed the conference? If you did, you heard a prophet speaking, and let me tell you what he said.” I happened to have a clipping in my wallet. This is what President George Albert Smith said:

“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.”

No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord.

We have had some who, writing in the public press occasionally, are among those who have fallen by the wayside. They befoul the honored family names that they have. They have disgraced the honors that we had given to them in times past. They are trying to join the forces of the enemy against the work of the Lord. And we can say to them, as President George Albert Smith said then, “Those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of the infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by the leaders of this church and attached to their names, will never die.”​

zerinus
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Hey z,
does the part about the prophet mean that anytime the LDS president speaks, he does so as prophet?

I do like that quote though.
 
Well, I went to scripture.lds.org and searched “gods.” It gave me the singular as well as the plural - hmph. But I did find this (bolding mine):

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man… (instructions snipped)… 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
DNC 132

So that answers one of Ralph’s questions. Yes, the Mormon church teaches that men can become gods.

Ruthie
 
zerinus said:
Often enough that when he doesn’t becomes immaterial.

zerinus
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So, when BY and others said all of the Racist things it can be said that they WERE speaking proper LDS doctrine? Or, was this in the immaterial part?
 
zerinus said:
As an “outsider,” you go to the Church. Whatever the Church tells you, that you will accept.

zerinus
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But that is my issue with this one. Prior to the 1970s, the LDS Church did say a bunch of racist things, or at least people in positions of authority did. If a prophet speaks with authority, when is it acceptable to question his authority? Do you guys have a rule of thumb on that? Are there times that you can ignore a prophet’s words?
 
RebeccaJ said:
mfbukowski;4163098:
I decided only to link to these. If you google “pilgrimage on knees” you will get pages and pages of this stuff.

Where does it come from? What is the doctrine?
Mortification is one form of asceticism. St. Paul said:
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Yep, I guess that’s really getting that old body nailed down all right! Talk about subjection. Not gonna be going out with the girls if you’re nailed to a cross No siree.

Whatcha doin? Oh just hangin’ around!
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mfbukowski said:
RebeccaJ;4163703:
mfbukowski;4163098:
I decided only to link to these. If you google “pilgrimage on knees” you will get pages and pages of this stuff.

Where does it come from? What is the doctrine?

Yep, I guess that’s really getting that old body nailed down all right! Talk about subjection. Not gonna be going out with the girls if you’re nailed to a cross No siree.

Whatcha doin? Oh just hangin’ around!
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You have serious issues that you need to work out.
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ralphinal said:
So, when BY and others said all of the Racist things it can be said that they WERE speaking proper LDS doctrine? Or, was this in the immaterial part?
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Not exactly. A prophet is not perfect. In fact, for the most part, they are products of their time. They must also learn and grow outwardly and inwardly.

Now lets look at the early church after christ died in Jeruselum. I am sure that some of the jews who coverted to christ and some of the leaders of the early church were just a little racist against the gentiles. No one is perfect.
 
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