Stephen168
New member
Do you have any examples of something you consider ‘meat’ which was never taught to you? Are you saying the Mormon god was never completely explained?
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adstrinity
Guest
AARRGHHHHHHH!!!
That’s not the link I meant to post! I’m sorry. I wanted to post the link, post number four, your reply, from my, “Question About LDS Divorce,” thread, the one where you said it is not Mormon belief that humans will be gods but rather will co-rule with Christ. I wanted to post it to make sure there was no discrepencies.Stephen168
New member
Do you have a reference for this?
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aquabatix
Guest
Actually, that is a good example. When the “first vision” story was told to me (and any time it was referenced later for that matter), it was shown in a manner that God the Father revealed His Son to tallk to JS. I understood this to be in the same light as when God spoke from heaven when Jesus was baprized. I was never told that Jesus and God were 2 seperate beings and not one unified Lord as taught in traditional Christianity. Basically, the teaching that Jesus was the “first born” of the Father and not God Himself in another way as part of the Trinity. Being told this in the beginning, I would have had A LOT more questions and concerns.
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dianaiad
Guest
Yep. here,
Where the pertinent paragraph reads thusly:
The controversy represents a PR nightmare for the Vatican. The unnamed girl’s mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday’s emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody. Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed “a heinous crime”, the Church took the view that “the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious”.*
Cardinal Sobrinho would not be defending his decision not to kick the rapist out of the church if said rapist weren’t in the church in the first place.
Here is another quote that states rather directly that the rapist is indeed a Catholic:
Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho insisted that “God’s law is above any human law. So when a human law … is contrary to God’s law, this human law has no value.” He only briefly addressed the decision to retain the stepfather as a Catholic while excommunicating the mother and doctors. Cardoso simply said that while the stepfather committed “a heinous crime … the abortion – the elimination of an innocent life – was more serious”.
There are many others, but I think that these two are sufficient to the purpose.
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dianaiad
Guest
With all due respect, how could you not know this, when Joseph Smith specifically mentioned two separate Beings appearing? Standing side by side?
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twopekinguys
Guest
What part of “Please provide a reference” do you NOT understand? It really is not a difficult concept for most people to understand. You are reading between the lines by forming your own conclusion.
The ONLY logical conclusion that can be drawn is that you are ASSUMING something, and you have no reference. Do not make a claim that you cannot, or will not substantiate.
It is as simple as that…
Again, either provide a reference stating that the Cardinal said he was Catholic, or admit you are assuming something that cannot be substantiated.
Trust me, I could not even come remotely close with assuming something. You have demonstrated your expertise quite well in that by your response above, as well as on the other thread.
You still don’t get it. (which doesn’t suprise me). Canon law, like civil law has a certain amount of latitude and discretion.
Like I said earlier, I find it amusing that you want to go to black and white, when you deal with assumptions so much. Which do you want, black and white, or assumptions? You want canon law to be black and white, but you want to use assumptions on a Cardinals statement.
I haven’t tried to wiggle out of anything. You however have wiggled out of your knowledge of a persons status of excommunication (ie Mr. Hardy). Or have you convieniently forgotten the dance you did with that?
We don’t automatically dismiss ex-Catholics and what they have to say. That is the point. Ex-Mormons ARE an excellent source, because they are the ones that can tell of their experiences, and why they left. Do you want someone to go to an active mormon for that? That would be a good Q & A don’t you think?
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twopekinguys
Guest
That is just plain sad. If someone has faith, and is hurt by the faith institution itself, I don’t think it diminshes that person’s credibility at all. I, (and I’m sure many others) would listen to the individual, and take them at their word, and try to resolve the issue. What you have said here leads me to believe those people who say they are shunned by other mormons if they leave. But yet, we hear from active mormons that doesn’t happen.
That is truly sad to think that just because someone leaves the mormon church, you think they lose credibility.
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TheosisM
Guest
Perhaps because traditional Christianity uses the word “being” in a different way than modern English does today (i.e. one human being = one human person). Two Persons standing side by side (or Jesus praying to the Father, or Jesus’ baptism scene, or Genesis 1:26) does not necessitate distinct “beings” in traditional Christianity (again the different understanding of “being”). This is a philosophical issue (with “being” used interchangeably with “substance”, “essence”, “divine nature”, and not “person”, as it is used in LDS theology, which tends to simplify the issue and keep the issue as one being=one person).
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twopekinguys
Guest
Good luck with that, I have asked her numerous times for a reference and haven’t gotten one yet.
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aquabatix
Guest
With all due respect yourself, not everyone is a master at trinitarian theology. Explaining and understanding how the father, son and spirit are three persons yet in one is something people go their entire lives trying to wrap their mind around. St Thomas Aquinas tried his whole life to understand it, and in the end could not, saying that his whole life’s work “was all straw”. The point is, MOST Christians understand that God is one, but have difficulty seeing how Jesus was on earth, yet God was in heaven at the same time. But scripture and God Himself say that He is only one and Jesus claimed the same…for Himself. I don’t need to explain this to you, you know what most Christians think about God. So when a couple of well intentioned young boys show me the “first vision” and that God refered to Jesus and said to listen to Him, most Christians would see this in a trinitarian way with both personages being the same person; both God, not God and His first born son (or creation). So with all due respect, those Elders should be a little more clear and those talks.
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TheosisM
Guest
Okay, I did a google search on this Brazil issue (partly because I’m tired of reading about it in more than one thread 
). A few articles state that Archbishop Sobrinho stated that the stepfather did not incur an automatic excommunication because canon law does not include rape as something that incurs automatic excommunication. A number of news articles also state that Father Sobrinho received criticism from many because he said (not verbatim) that abortion is a worse crime than rape (he is also quoted as saying that abortion is more serious than killing an adult, which I agree with as well).
france24.com/en/20090314-bishops-admit-mistake-annul-excommunication-abortion-row-minor-rape-brazil
belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/church-excommunicates-mother-of-9yearold-rape-victim-ndash-but-not-accused-rapist-14218389.html
Canon law states that abortion incurs an automatic excommunication. Rape does not. A number of criteria have to be met for an automatic excommunication to actually occur, including age requirements, knowledge of the punishment, etc. It is clear that the people involved did know about this, since, according to news statements, the Catholic Church in Brazil attempted to intervene. There is no statement in the news that says “the father was Catholic”, but certain statements made lead one to assume that he is Catholic. I think it’s safe to assume that he is Catholic. Everyone can do a google search to find out more if they wish.
So let’s move on and realize that none of us are canon lawyers
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). A few articles state that Archbishop Sobrinho stated that the stepfather did not incur an automatic excommunication because canon law does not include rape as something that incurs automatic excommunication. A number of news articles also state that Father Sobrinho received criticism from many because he said (not verbatim) that abortion is a worse crime than rape (he is also quoted as saying that abortion is more serious than killing an adult, which I agree with as well).france24.com/en/20090314-bishops-admit-mistake-annul-excommunication-abortion-row-minor-rape-brazil
belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/church-excommunicates-mother-of-9yearold-rape-victim-ndash-but-not-accused-rapist-14218389.html
Canon law states that abortion incurs an automatic excommunication. Rape does not. A number of criteria have to be met for an automatic excommunication to actually occur, including age requirements, knowledge of the punishment, etc. It is clear that the people involved did know about this, since, according to news statements, the Catholic Church in Brazil attempted to intervene. There is no statement in the news that says “the father was Catholic”, but certain statements made lead one to assume that he is Catholic. I think it’s safe to assume that he is Catholic. Everyone can do a google search to find out more if they wish.
So let’s move on and realize that none of us are canon lawyers
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dianaiad
Guest
Excuse me, but I provided the references. You might want to actually read the thread. One cannot decide to ‘retain the stepfather as a Catholic’ if he wasn’t a Catholic in the first place.
…how many references must I provide before you will admit that I provided any at all?
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dianaiad
Guest
It’s not sad. It’s pure common sense. It’s not a judgment against the people as people—it is simply that if you are going to find out information regarding any belief system, the primary source should ALWAYS be the believers. Going to people who are biased against it is at best a second choice…and is, in reality, about third or fourth.
So of course when someone leaves the CoJCoLDS they lose credibility…and to the precise amount that someone who leaves the Catholic church loses credibility about Catholicism–no more and no less.
Unless it’s OK with you that I get all my information about Catholicism from Tim Lott or J. Ernest Freques?
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dianaiad
Guest
I see. It depends upon what 'is" is.Perhaps because traditional Christianity uses the word “being” in a different way than modern English does today (i.e. one human being = one human person). Two Persons standing side by side (or Jesus praying to the Father, or Jesus’ baptism scene, or Genesis 1:26) does not necessitate distinct “beings” in traditional Christianity (again the different understanding of “being”). This is a philosophical issue (with “being” used interchangeably with “substance”, “essence”, “divine nature”, and not “person”, as it is used in LDS theology, which tends to simplify the issue and keep the issue as one being=one person).
The problem is, Theosis, that our view of the Trinity is pretty simple, and is precisely as described in those very first missionary lessons. There isn’t any wiggling around; when Joseph Smith described two Personages standing side by side, that’s pretty much it. That’s what we believe. It’s laid right out there…
And to claim that we are attempting to decieve anybody about it is to redefine words to screeching levels. We don’t pull any punches with it, y’know.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I’d say anyone who sticks with Mormonism has lost all credibility, for the mere fact they are gullible, and easily persuaded. Just make 'em feel good, and you can get them to do/believe anything.
People who leave mormonism don’t make those who stay feel good, by the mere fact that we left.
People who leave mormonism don’t make those who stay feel good, by the mere fact that we left.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
The definition of all things mormon.
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dianaiad
Guest
Given that I posted the LAST set of references–two out of five or six references that I have posted in total–fifteen minutes before your diatribe claiming that I had not posted any, I find your claim here a little odd.
…and in this last set, sir, I believe that you will find that it is rather directly stated that the rapist is Catholic.
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dianaiad
Guest
In the Brazilian case, the church did not ‘recognize’ a latae sententaie excommunication. It imposed an official one.Okay, I did a google search on this Brazil issue (partly because I’m tired of reading about it in more than one thread
france24.com/en/20090314-bishops-admit-mistake-annul-excommunication-abortion-row-minor-rape-brazil
belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/church-excommunicates-mother-of-9yearold-rape-victim-ndash-but-not-accused-rapist-14218389.html
Canon law states that abortion incurs an automatic excommunication. Rape does not. A number of criteria have to be met for an automatic excommunication to actually occur, including age requirements, knowledge of the punishment, etc. It is clear that the people involved did know about this, since, according to news statements, the Catholic Church in Brazil attempted to intervene. There is no statement in the news that says “the father was Catholic”, but certain statements made lead one to assume that he is Catholic. I think it’s safe to assume that he is Catholic. Everyone can do a google search to find out more if they wish.
So let’s move on and realize that none of us are canon lawyers
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dianaiad
Guest
Gee Whiz. I wonder how fast I would be suspended from this forum if I wrote 'the definition of all things Catholic."
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