Millenarianism why is is wrong?

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4. Other Scriptures make it clear that there is no interval between the coming of the Lord and Judgment.

2 Pet. 3:9-10

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.”

Also see 2 Thess. 1:5-10
  1. There is no mention of a millennium outside the book of the highly symbolic book of Revelation. The Greek work for “thousand” is symbolic of an extremely long period of time.
 
And, just so things are not too unbalanced, here are the some arguements for the Postmill postition.

**Postmillennialism: **The belief that the church ushers in the millennium through the triumph of the Gospel.

Adherents: George Whitfield, Charles Hodge, Jonathan Edwards, B. B. Warfield

Arguments for Postmillennialism:
  1. The Great Commission demands fulfillment during the present age since Christ is the one who is the power behind it (also see 1 Cor. 15:25).
  2. Certain parables clearly state that the Kingdom of Heaven will continue to grow and eventually transform the entire world.
Matt. 13:31-33“He gave them another parable: ‘The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest garden plant and becomes a tree, so that the wild birds come and nest in its branches.’ He told them another parable: ‘The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed with three measures of flour until all the dough had risen.’”
  1. The Church does in fact continue to grow and has over 2 billion adherents.
  2. All other eschatological views are too pessimistic. Only postmillennialism provides for the true triumph of Christ through the Church.
 
Here are the weaknesses of each view:

Postmill:
  1. The New Testament does not suggest that things will get better before Christ comes, but much worse (Matt. 24; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 2 Pet 3:3-4).
  2. Postmillennialism arose during a time of great hope and enlightenment, but that hope has turned to despair in the twentieth-century. Man is not improving as we thought and the Church is not triumphing over the world.
  3. There is limited amount of Scriptural support for this position.
Amill:
  1. Although it may be feasible to spiritualize the one thousand year reign of Christ in Rev. 20, this is much more difficult to do with the two resurrections of the same passage, one occurring before the Millennium and one occurring after (Rev. 20: 4-6).
  2. It is problematic to say that Satan has been bound and locked and sealed in the abyss for the last two-thousand years, not deceiving the nations. Peter says that Satan “prowls about like a roaring loin, seeking someone to devour” (1 Pet. 5:8). This does not fit with any system except that which sees the Millennium as yet future.
  3. The argument about the two resurrections of Rev. 20 is weak at best.
  4. Usually does not have a future for ethnic Israel, but replaces Israel with the Church. This is problematic since Rom. 11 seems to say that ethnic Israel does have future.
 
Cont . . .
Premill:
  1. It is problematic to base such an important doctrine on one passage. The one-thousand year reign of Christ is only mentioned in Rev. 20. If this passage were not in Scripture, we would not know about it.
  2. Other Scriptures suggest that there is no interval between the second coming of Christ and the judgment.
 
Reading Revelations chapter 20 without keeping in mind everything else that St. John had written earlier doesn’t even lead to false conclusions…it leads to utter confusion. I’m no Bible scholar or theologian, but I cannot understand how anyone with common sense could conclude that this passage is strictly chronological…it has an obvious ‘apocalyptic’ flavor (imagine that…).

The previous chapters of Revelations, especially 18 and 19, describe the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. If one reads chapter 19 before 20, they should realize that chap 19 was not exactly about Christ conquering the world, because that is what is described in chap 20! Chapter 19 is a stunning, vivid and accurate re-enactment of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD as described by Josephus (see David B. Currie ‘Rapture’). Chap 19 describes a final and decisive battle wrought by Christ and His angels, as prefigured and deliberately planned in Chap 3-17. After this great battle, and Babylon (Jerusalem) was defeated, chap 20 begins with, ‘Then I saw an angel come down from heaven…’ (Rev 20:1). What is described next is the Church Age of course, the Age we are in now. When Satan is bound and the Church is allowed to prosper now that Jerusalem had been defeated, John describes the souls of those ‘who had not worshipped the Beast…came to life and reigned with Christ’ (Rev 20:4). This is the Church Triumphant, the Saints! Remember before hand in Revelations the Saints accepted prayers and offered them to God in heaven, and the martyrs under the altar pleading for revenge, those that had not worshipped the Beast. These martyrs, the martyrs of the early Church and all other saints that go to heaven immediately upon dying ‘the first Death’, reign with Christ in heaven and assist the Church militant. Notice too, that somehow these souls come to life are priests…indeed an interesting remark to make if, like so many Protestants claim, that there is no need for a special priesthood aside from Christ alone (it indicates that Christ intended for His Priesthood to be shared with others, especially those chosen, i.e. a ministerial priesthood). When the Age of the Church begins to close, Satan is released and then we have the End Times - a huge war and finally, the earth and sky are swept away and the Final Judgment occurs. The ODD thing is, that if we approach this as a premillenialist and read chap 19 to 20, we go from the Fall of Jerusalem to the Reign of Christ to the Final Judgment. Notice there is no CHURCH AGE described! That cannot be, since the Church Age has already been 2 Millenia…one would think it would have at least been mentioned. But it wasn’t because the Reign of Christ is the Church Age, our Age. Not to mention, there isn’t anything about a ‘kingdom’ being set up on earth in chap 20. Probably because, like the Apostles have stated in other NT passages, the Kingdom was already ushered in when Christ had come the first time, and the purpose of Revelations was to show how that Kingdom, now established with the Apostles, was going to be victorious over Babylon and the Beast and become triumphant in the ages to come until Christ comes again.

All I can say is, after paying close attention to the words that St. John uses, especially in light of the rest of Revelation, this passage doesn’t even come close to describing a literal millennial reign. The Early Church Fathers are either being misrepresented or they were just plain wrong (God Bless them).
 
What is described next is the Church Age of course, the Age we are in now. When Satan is bound and the Church is allowed to prosper now that Jerusalem had been defeated.
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Wow! Satan is bound and the Church is prospering? This may be, but how would you explain what it means that he is bound and the pit is shut, locked, and the keys are not in his hands?
Notice too, that somehow these souls come to life are priests
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…indeed an interesting remark to make if, like so many Protestants claim, that there is no need for a special priesthood aside from Christ alone (it indicates that Christ intended for His Priesthood to be shared with others, especially those chosen, i.e. a ministerial priesthood).

I don’t mean any disrespect to your hermeneutics, but you actually interpret this verse as referring to the Preisthood? You cannot be serious . . . are you? I have never even heard the best of the amillennialists interpret it this way. Why and how could you do this? Is this the way the Roman Catholic Church interprets the two resurrections? Surely not. I would be interested to find out.

I am not sure which position I agree with (although I have leanings at this point), but I look forward to an explaination.

Michael
 
The Kingdom as ’ a mustard seed’ that’s set up on earth 2000 yrs ago is also spoken of as 1000 years because it represents a ‘day’ in physical terms as opposed to spiritual, which is also a symbol of light unique to a particular age. As the Union of the Church suffering and the Church Militant ( I think purgatory on earth triggers the eschatalogical cycle in case your wondering about the Church suffering in this view) occurs, the Church on earth will experience her completion on the cross, following in the footsteps of her Master ,and the Bride will be presented to the Groom in Heaven.

As for time, since our flesh and the whole creation will be making visible again the Mystery of God it will also be doing it’s part in revealing His Mystery in that it will have an eternal character. See Genesis for how time is experienced.

I seem to remember St. Augustine enterpreting the 1000 year reign as a symbol of baptism. It could be seen as a ‘day’ of Christ’s reign.

Anyway, this is how I view it all. Be easy on me now. 😉
 
Wow! Satan is bound and the Church is prospering? This may be, but how would you explain what it means that he is bound and the pit is shut, locked, and the keys are not in his hands?
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The ‘pit’ referred to in Revelations is sheol, or ‘abode of the dead’. It is shut, locked and Satan no longer holds the key because Jesus has conquered death. Chapter 19 explains this quite well. The imagry of the pit and the chain is actually literal in a sense, since within the city of Jerusalem is a pit, and for centuries was covered by the Dome of the Rock. The Dome of the Rock, now a mosque, is the Seal of Sheol, locked by a great chain.
In OT times, those who died went to Sheol where their souls simply wandered aimlessly. The First Ressurection is actually aimed at these souls, for as is mentioned even in the NT, the merits of Christ apply to ALL souls - past, present and future. The work of Christ, his redemptive and savific merits, have shut Sheol for good. There is heaven for those who believe and hell (gahena) for those who reject.
I don’t mean any disrespect to your hermeneutics, but you actually interpret this verse as referring to the Preisthood? You cannot be serious . . . are you? I have never even heard the best of the amillennialists interpret it this way. Why and how could you do this? Is this the way the Roman Catholic Church interprets the two resurrections? Surely not. I would be interested to find out.
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I really don’t understand your criticsism here…it plainly says they ‘will be priests…’. If the ordinary and equally shared priesthood of all believers was obvious to John, why did he make mention of the souls becoming priests of God and Christ? Why not just blessed and holy? Or why not just ‘saved’? Priests offer sacrifice, that is what makes a priest a priest. If Christ is the ‘one mediator’ in a protestant sense, how can you explain this verse? John is obviously giving reference to a special preisthood in Christ’s Church, his ‘elders’, his Priests that offer up a perpetuation of His one sacrifice. Christ continually offers himself to the Father for us, for all eternity, as John points out ‘I saw a lamb, as if slain’. This is a reference to Christ of course, the Lamb of God. Priests offer this same sacrific, with Christ, to all believes in time through His Church, known as Communion (John 6). In this reference in Revelations, it seems to be a heavenly priesthood, probably the elders dressed in white.
I didn’t mean that it referenced the ministerial priesthood directly, I meant that his usage of priests here is unusual unless he was aware of a ministerial priesthood - especially because he was in fact a priest himself. Afterall, Revelations is stuffed with litergical flavor and ritual offering.

Perhaps you could offer some counter-points and refernces on your still ‘undecided’ position instead of just criticsizing mine.
 
*Decree of the Holy Office dated July 21, 1944: *

“In recent times on several occasions, this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.”

Rome has spoken; the matter is closed.
 
In other words, the data it too vague. God didn’t describe Jesus and His first coming exactly, no times and dates, etc. But, he did offer signs and clues. Same goes with the Second Coming. However, we do know to some degree what scripture at least intended as opposed to what people twist it to mean.

But the message remains the same - be ready.
 
*Decree of the Holy Office dated July 21, 1944:
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*“In recent times on several occasions, this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.”
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Rome has spoken; the matter is closed.
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Again Why can’t it be taught safley why can’t we believe if we want to that Christ will rule the world for a thousand years after his return liek some of the Early Church Fathers did WHY WHY WHY! Whats the harm in it?
 
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starrs0:
Again Why can’t it be taught safley why can’t we believe if we want to that Christ will rule the world for a thousand years after his return liek some of the Early Church Fathers did WHY WHY WHY! Whats the harm in it?
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People on this thread have given numerous reasons, including the fact that is unbiblical and the Magisterium condemns it.

Scroll to the top and read down. Repeat as necessary. 🙂
 
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starrs0:
This is what the Church says about the concept of Christ ruling the world for a thousand years after the Second Coming

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578 677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

Now I ask you WHY is it wrong to think that there will be a thousand year reign whats the harm? I’m having difficulty seeing why The Church thinks it’s not going to happen alot of the early Church Fathers like Justine Martyr believed Christ would rule the world a thousand years. It wasn’t until Augustine came along that it fell out of fashion well so what some of those ealier Fathers might be right. Someone explain all this to me I don’t get it
whats the big deal?
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Hi Starrs0,
Between reading and skipping my way down the list, I came to the conclusion that no one is in agreement with me. But I am firm in my belief on this issue.
Shortly, ie Max 12 years until the end of Tribulation. ( So get your self in order) In this period all those people killed in Christ will live and reign with Him for a thousand years. The rest, the vast majority who are killed will go to hell until judgement. Those in Christ will not face judgement at the 2nd death. The earth will be in ruins. Satan will be locked up for this period. After the 1000 years satan will be let out for a while ( God knows how long) then the 2nd coming. Satan and death thrown into the lake of fire, everyone believes in Christ, judgment on works, evil into the lake of fire, the Holy Jerusalem comes down to earth and the kingdom of God is now established on earth.
Currently on earth we have the kingdom of God but it is spiritual and can not been seen. ITs counterpart in heaven is the kingdom of heaven. John the Baptist See Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, " Indeed , Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 17:12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands’
See John set up the kingdoms, as the Garden of Eden. Jesus is the saviour.
So Tribulation
satan locked up for 1000 years
satan let loose for a while
Christ returns, judgment
Holy Jerusalem comes to earth. ( a new earth)
all people (and maybe animals etc) are held in the rapture while the present heaven and earth are melted and new ones made. Note God is not restriced to the confines of heaven and earth. Jesus went above the heavens.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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edwinG:
Hi Starrs0,
Between reading and skipping my way down the list, I came to the conclusion that no one is in agreement with me. But I am firm in my belief on this issue.
Shortly, ie Max 12 years until the end of Tribulation. ( So get your self in order) In this period all those people killed in Christ will live and reign with Him for a thousand years. The rest, the vast majority who are killed will go to hell until judgement. Those in Christ will not face judgement at the 2nd death. The earth will be in ruins. Satan will be locked up for this period. After the 1000 years satan will be let out for a while ( God knows how long) then the 2nd coming. Satan and death thrown into the lake of fire, everyone believes in Christ, judgment on works, evil into the lake of fire, the Holy Jerusalem comes down to earth and the kingdom of God is now established on earth.
Currently on earth we have the kingdom of God but it is spiritual and can not been seen. ITs counterpart in heaven is the kingdom of heaven. John the Baptist See Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, " Indeed , Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 17:12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands’
See John set up the kingdoms, as the Garden of Eden. Jesus is the saviour.
So Tribulation
satan locked up for 1000 years
satan let loose for a while
Christ returns, judgment
Holy Jerusalem comes to earth. ( a new earth)
all people (and maybe animals etc) are held in the rapture while the present heaven and earth are melted and new ones made. Note God is not restriced to the confines of heaven and earth. Jesus went above the heavens.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Edwin I wondered where you went you never answered my questions on the “possible soon to be ex-catholic” thread.
 
edwinG:

Truly, it is fortunate that you do not read the rest of the Bible with the same literalness as you do Rev 20 - otherwise, our Savior would have seven heads and seven horns, look like a lamb and roar like a lion (among other curious notions). Perhaps you should not simply skip through some of our posts - perhaps you should read them, especially the decrees of the Church.

A strictly literal approach to the Bible is the same mistake the Pharisees made, and Jesus directly condemned them for it.

Beware my friend.
 
J.R.:
Edwin I wondered where you went you never answered my questions on the “possible soon to be ex-catholic” thread.
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Hi JR,
I have been very busy and my time has been short. Please accept my apology and if the people on this thread do not mind, repost your question for me please. If you feel like spoiling me, send me a message to back it up because my wife, Tui, uses the computer a lot over the weekend and my time again can be limited.
I suppose an alternative would be to give me the post number so I can find it quickly. At the moment I am looking for a " Dry" thread as I have to leave a message, This is my third trip through the forum looking for it.
thank you for drawing my attention to the missed post.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG
 
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UnknownCloud:
edwinG:

Truly, it is fortunate that you do not read the rest of the Bible with the same literalness as you do Rev 20 - otherwise, our Savior would have seven heads and seven horns, look like a lamb and roar like a lion (among other curious notions). Perhaps you should not simply skip through some of our posts - perhaps you should read them, especially the decrees of the Church.

A strictly literal approach to the Bible is the same mistake the Pharisees made, and Jesus directly condemned them for it.

Beware my friend.
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Hi UnknownCloud,
If there are too many aspects to cover, maybe you could point out one specific aspect that you feel is wrong and the scripture that supports it. Then we can address it issue by issue using the scripture. Are the decrees of the Roman Catholic church infallible? Not being a catholic , I am not familar with the multitude of rules which bind you and the degree of that bondage.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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edwinG:
I am not familar with the multitude of rules which bind you and the degree of that bondage.
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Edwin:

You and I have debated many times on this forum, and though I have disagreed with you I have always tried to be charitable. However, I find this statement extremely offensive. Exactly what “rules” of the Catholic Church do you consider “bondage?” The ones about chastity? Abortion? Birth control? Marriage? Attending church once a week (see Hebrews 10:25)? Please enlighten me.
 
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edwinG:
maybe you could point out one specific aspect that you feel is wrong and the scripture that supports it. Then we can address it issue by issue using the scripture.
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Actually, it would make more sense to look at what makes one believe that Scripture teaches that there will be a literal 1000 year earthly reign of Christ. The Scriptures are not meant to include a refutation of every erroneous teaching that comes along (and neither is it supposed to serve as an all-inclusive catechism, in the Sola Scriptura sense).

The one specific aspect, scripturally, is that the entire theology of the 1000 year earthly reign is built upon one passage (Revelation 20:2-7). Everything else that is believed about it is pure speculation and eisegesis based on a literal, wooden reading of this number. As has been pointed out, ad teduim, is that 1000 in the Scriptures is a highly symbolic number meaning “lots and lots.” For example, the psalmist says of God, " *For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills" *(Psalm 50:10). Does this mean the cattle on hill 1001 does not belong to God? No, we know that God is the God of ALL creation–it all belongs to him.
 
1000 in the Scriptures is a highly symbolic number meaning “lots and lots.” For example, the psalmist says of God, " *For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills" *(Psalm 50:10). Does this mean the cattle on hill 1001 does not belong to God? No, we know that God is the God of ALL creation–it all belongs to him.
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Hmmm never thought of it like that before:hmmm:
 
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