Mind-Body Problem

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Does anyone know where I can find a good read on the Christian view of human Consciousness? I don’t want one that just says: “this is what we believe” and does nothing but quote scripture, but instead gives evidence of the claim through philosophy and science.
 
Does anyone know where I can find a good read on the Christian view of human Consciousness? I don’t want one that just says: “this is what we believe” and does nothing but quote scripture, but instead gives evidence of the claim through philosophy and science.
Bump.

I don’t know of anything written in the Church that takes modern brain science into account.

I can think of one or two philosophers, but am unsure of their orthodoxy.

ICXC NIKA
 
Bump.

I don’t know of anything written in the Church that takes modern brain science into account.

I can think of one or two philosophers, but am unsure of their orthodoxy.

ICXC NIKA
Yea I can’t think of any either. I keep hearing that Descartes Dualism has been dismissed over the years which leads me to believe that the material view has to be the leading theory, which would mean all life is determined by the physical (ipso facto means no true free will), which would in turn have to be in opposition of the teachings of Traditional Christianity.
 
Yea I can’t think of any either. I keep hearing that Descartes Dualism has been dismissed over the years which leads me to believe that the material view has to be the leading theory, which would mean all life is determined by the physical (ipso facto means no true free will), which would in turn have to be in opposition of the teachings of Traditional Christianity.
I don’t understand why dualism should be essential to free will, nor why there cannot be limitations to our free will. Everything else in human life has strict limits.

Limitations to free will simply mean that not all sin is equally severe. God takes the limitations into account.

I’ll keep looking for the philosophers.

ICXC NIKA
 
I don’t understand why dualism should be essential to free will, nor why there cannot be limitations to our free will. Everything else in human life has strict limits.

Limitations to free will simply mean that not all sin is equally severe. God takes the limitations into account.

I’ll keep looking for the philosophers.

ICXC NIKA
The reason I say that (and I’m really thinking and writing at the same) is, if there is no duality, than the mind and the brain aren’t separate. This means that everything is determined inside the brain and we truly don’t have free will. Studies have shown that before a person makes a decision to do something, a firing off of synapses in the brain occurs and this triggers our actions. So wouldn’t this mean that we are slaves to our brain? I don’t know, it seems this is either above my level of comprehension or I’m just ignorant of something. That’s why I came here. Hopefully someone knows of something I don’t. haha
 
Does anyone know where I can find a good read on the Christian view of human Consciousness? I don’t want one that just says: “this is what we believe” and does nothing but quote scripture, but instead gives evidence of the claim through philosophy and science.
Although he is not a Christian David Chalmers, The Character of Consciousness argues persuasively against a physicalist view of mind. He gets very technical in some places, still he lays out the basics of his argument as well in an accessible way.

Edward Feser is Catholic, but he is a philosopher and argues philosophically in Philosophy of Mind.

These might be a good place to start.
 
The reason I say that (and I’m really thinking and writing at the same) is, if there is no duality, than the mind and the brain aren’t separate. This means that everything is determined inside the brain and we truly don’t have free will. Studies have shown that before a person makes a decision to do something, a firing off of synapses in the brain occurs and this triggers our actions. So wouldn’t this mean that we are slaves to our brain? I don’t know, it seems this is either above my level of comprehension or I’m just ignorant of something. That’s why I came here. Hopefully someone knows of something I don’t. haha
Not quite. Cartesian dualism is false, yes, but to my knowledge the Church puts forth what basically amounts to Aristotle’s hylemorphic dualism theory which is different from Descartes’ theory in that it posits that all substances are unions of form and matter. The form of a human being is a rational soul which is immaterial. Instead of it being like a ball and a “ghost” ball that fits inside the real ball and controls it, the relationship between soul and body is like that of the shape of a triangle with the ink in which the triangle is written.

I think you have the brain thing backwards. It’s more like the decision is a product of the mind which causes the brain firings. Basically what it amounts to is that human thinking is absolutely determinate about the concepts it is entertaining whereas a material representation (read “brain states”) can only indeterminately reflect the concept. We were discussing this over in the philosophy section last month: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=846957. Maybe some of the discussion will be useful to you.
Fr of Jazz:
Edward Feser is Catholic, but he is a philosopher and argues philosophically in Philosophy of Mind.
I absolutely second this! Prof. Feser covers a lot of this topic in his books and on his blog: edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/01/against-neurobabble.html
 
We are not slaves of our brain.

The brain is the necessary mechanism for our mind (the quintessential “us”) to function.

ICXC NIKA
 
Does anyone know where I can find a good read on the Christian view of human Consciousness? I don’t want one that just says: “this is what we believe” and does nothing but quote scripture, but instead gives evidence of the claim through philosophy and science.
I’m not sure just what you’re after, but in regards to human nature, the text that is my all time favorite is “Philosophical Psychology” by D. Q. McInerny (a seminary philosophy professor for the Fraternity of St. Peter).
fraternitypublications.com/philosophical-psychology—dq–mcinerny-phd.html

I was able to understand it. (I think because he’s writing it for students and not degreed philosophers). It opened the door for me to understanding Aquinas.
I also liked his style of writing.

However, he doesn’t go into the physical science (biology, chemistry, etc.) of the human body.
 
The reason I say that (and I’m really thinking and writing at the same) is, if there is no duality, than the mind and the brain aren’t separate. This means that everything is determined inside the brain and we truly don’t have free will.
Not just within ones own brain, but also the influences of others within the environment. This doesn’t necessarily mean that “free will” is absent (depending on what you mean by free will). There is a book that looks at intelligence in natural, artificial, and social entities that looked at this problem (“Swarm Intelligence” by Kennedy, Eberhart). If I can find the section in the book that talked about this I’ll post it back here.
 
Cartesian dualism is false, yes, but to my knowledge the Church puts forth what basically amounts to Aristotle’s hylemorphic dualism theory which is different from Descartes’ theory in that it posits that all substances are unions of form and matter. The form of a human being is a rational soul which is immaterial. Instead of it being like a ball and a “ghost” ball that fits inside the real ball and controls it, the relationship between soul and body is like that of the shape of a triangle with the ink in which the triangle is written.
Balto is right.

The Church does not endorse any particular philosophy, but its tendency is definitely in the direction of Aristotelian-Thomistic hylemorphism in which the soul is the form of the body. (Such a position is visible in certain encyclicals, like Veritatis Splendor.) Aristotle argued that the intellect had no bodily organ, which sounds odd to us, but what he meant was that intellectual operations (particularly the abstraction of universal forms from particular substances in the world) was a necessarily immaterial operation. He believed that such an operation, though, relied on humans’ material bodies and the physical world since such operations depend on sense data.

This is a point on which Aquinas had to modify Aristotle. Aristotle was focused on the form-matter distinction, while Aquinas made a more general essence-existence distinction (in addition to the form-matter distinction). The relevance of that is that Aristotle did not see the possibility of a form existing apart from a body, while Aquinas did believe that there could be such subsistent forms just in case that they were essentially immaterial. Aquinas argued that human souls are essentially immaterial (his basis for this was that humans’ intellectual operations entailed their vegetative and appetitive operations, but the opposite is not true, ie. there are animals which have appetitive powers but not intellectual powers), which means that the persevere after the death of the body (though, since they rely on the body for their operation, in a reduced state).

These are certainly points on which a Catholic could disagree.(Here is an example of a Catholic substance dualist.) Feser’s book Philosophy of Mind is a good introduction to the subject of philosophy of mind and will spell out the major arguments for materialism and dualism. His book Aquinas, I think, spells out the arguments for hylemorphic dualism in more specificity and with more relation to Aquinas’s thinking.

It’s hard to find full treatments of the subject. Mind, Matter, Nature by Jim Madden and Philosophy of Mind by William Jaworski are both introductions to philosophy of mind that introduce hylemorphism as a “third way” between substance dualism and materialism toward the end; but the treatments are therefore necessarily a bit limited. (They are also not too cheap and probably are not worth buying unless you are serious about the subject. If you’re fortunate enough to have access to an academic library, then you could probably find them there.)
 
Aristotle argued that the intellect had no bodily organ, which sounds odd to us, but what he meant was that intellectual operations (particularly the abstraction of universal forms from particular substances in the world) was a necessarily immaterial operation.
Aristotle’s point here, I think, is that the intellect (Nous) is a power that depends directly on the soul. Whereas the sensitive powers (Aristotle admits of the five “external” senses and then other “internal” senses") have a proper organ, because they are essentially material operations, the intellect does not.

Thomas Aquinas pretty much accepted Aristotle’s doctrine on this point.

Actually, a good read would be as follows: Aristotle’s De Anima followed by Question 79 of the first part of the Summa Theologiae. (See newadvent.org/summa/1079.htm.)

God bless.
Fr. Louis Melahn, L.C.
 
Thomas Aquinas pretty much accepted Aristotle’s doctrine on this point.
Right. I think I was unclear in saying, “This is a point on which Aquinas had to modify Aristotle.” They agreed that the intellect had no bodily organ and that the human form was essentially immaterial. Aristotle did not take this as implying that the soul persists after death.
 
Originally Posted by polytropos View Post
Aristotle argued that the intellect had no bodily organ, which sounds odd to us, but what he meant was that intellectual operations (particularly the abstraction of universal forms from particular substances in the world) 👍 was a necessarily immaterial operation.
  1. If all the world’s people combined their efforts to build a supergollygeewhiz computer with the most comprehensive artificial intelligence that could be programmed, would the computer have consciousness, intellect and will? No. It would just be a great computer.
  2. Could natural evolution alone evolve an animal brain that could write the plays of Shakespeare, invent calculus, write the music score of The Sound of Music, shed tears at Obama’s latest fiasco, and understand any concept? No, Any product of evolution could only accomplish what the animal needs for survival, not do crossword puzzles, go to the opera or be an Olympic athlete.
 
The reason I say that (and I’m really thinking and writing at the same) is, if there is no duality, than the mind and the brain aren’t separate. This means that everything is determined inside the brain and we truly don’t have free will. Studies have shown that before a person makes a decision to do something, a firing off of synapses in the brain occurs and this triggers our actions. So wouldn’t this mean that we are slaves to our brain?
If we were slaves to our brain “we” would be superfluous! Why believe in an impotent entity? 😉
 
Does anyone know where I can find a good read on the Christian view of human Consciousness? I don’t want one that just says: “this is what we believe” and does nothing but quote scripture, but instead gives evidence of the claim through philosophy and science.
Common sense tells us that we are conscious. Common sense also tells us that abstract knowledge of the universe and how it works, though originally obtained through the senses, would be useless if there were not a non-material part of us that transcends the material. Is the number “4” merely a little material figure inside my brain that I can call up at will? Prove it. Can you open up a man’s brain and out spills his entire life of memories and reasoning and hopes and desires? Prove it.

Absolute materialism is really an assumption that begs proof and cannot find any, except that the mind/consciousness and the physical brain are somehow mysteriously connected, a fact that no one who believes in spirit would think of denying.
 
Does anyone know where I can find a good read on the Christian view of human Consciousness? I don’t want one that just says: “this is what we believe” and does nothing but quote scripture, but instead gives evidence of the claim through philosophy and science.
Feser, Edward. Philosophy of Mind
Feser, Edward. Introduction to Philosophy of Mind
Kenny, Anthony. Mind & Metaphysics
Leftow, Brian. ‘Mind, Body, Soul’ In The Waning of Materialism

Need any more? The Mind-Body interaction problem is only a problem within Substance Dualism (such as Cartesian) and any framework that is influence by the Cartesian Metaphysics (Materialism, Cartesian Dualism, Elimitivism, Epiphenomenonalism, Parallelism, et al) due to the metaphysical conceptions of Mind and Matter. That is in the presupposition of the mechanistic nature of matter, and the immaterial substance of ‘mind’.
I don’t understand why dualism should be essential to free will, nor why there cannot be limitations to our free will. Everything else in human life has strict limits.

Limitations to free will simply mean that not all sin is equally severe. God takes the limitations into account.

I’ll keep looking for the philosophers.

ICXC NIKA
If pure materialism were to be true, as Matter is inherently mechanistic (its actions are a predetermined chain of cause and effect) and all phenomenon is material- the appearance of ‘free will’ is an illusion in a mechanistically determined chain. This would be an extreme position within materialism, because Materialism is struggle to get over many problems within Philosophy of Mind- to the point I would contend you can not rationally accept it without incoherency.
 
What I am doing right now (which you may or may not opt for) is first reading Edward Feser’s Philosophy of Mind: A Beginners Guide just to get a general scope of the field and and introduction to hylemorphic dualism. Afterwards, I am hoping to immediately start on James Madden’s Mind, Matter, and Nature: A Thomistic Proposal for the Philosophy of Mind to get into a detailed account of hylemophic dualism. I might also recommend reading some of Thomas Nagel’s work, even though he is an atheist. While his book Mind and Cosmos does outline some arguments against materialism, I think some of his articles go more in-depth, as his book is more focused on setting up an alternative to materialism as opposed to tearing it down.
 
What I am doing right now (which you may or may not opt for) is first reading Edward Feser’s Philosophy of Mind: A Beginners Guide just to get a general scope of the field and and introduction to hylemorphic dualism. Afterwards, I am hoping to immediately start on James Madden’s Mind, Matter, and Nature: A Thomistic Proposal for the Philosophy of Mind to get into a detailed account of hylemophic dualism. I might also recommend reading some of Thomas Nagel’s work, even though he is an atheist. While his book Mind and Cosmos does outline some arguments against materialism, I think some of his articles go more in-depth, as his book is more focused on setting up an alternative to materialism as opposed to tearing it down.
If we’re talking specifics (and technical) arguments against Materialism, I would recommend getting the entire book of ‘The Waning of Materialism’. The ‘book’, which is better termed anthology, is a collection of papers written specifically in refutation of materialism and in proposing alternatives (some Cartesian, some not; including one of the leading Thomists in Britain) on a academic level. Some papers in there are more accessible then others, for instance I found the paper on Kripke almost inaccessible, this is,however, due to my own deficiencies with modern symbolic logic. If you have access to Oxford Scholarship Online they have the book in ebook format there, if not it would be worth buying it.
 
If we’re talking specifics (and technical) arguments against Materialism, I would recommend getting the entire book of ‘The Waning of Materialism’. The ‘book’, which is better termed anthology, is a collection of papers written specifically in refutation of materialism and in proposing alternatives (some Cartesian, some not; including one of the leading Thomists in Britain) on a academic level. Some papers in there are more accessible then others, for instance I found the paper on Kripke almost inaccessible, this is,however, due to my own deficiencies with modern symbolic logic. If you have access to Oxford Scholarship Online they have the book in ebook format there, if not it would be worth buying it.
Thanks for the recommendation. I have stumbled across it before, but since there was only one review, I was wondering what others thought of it. I’m glad you liked it as well. Unfortunately, I just don’t think I’d be remotely capable to taking even the more accessible essays in right now (I’m still a high school student, so I’ve had precious little teaching in logic or philosophy). Michael Rea’s World without Design: The Ontological Consequences of Naturalism is also something I have been looking at, but it too looks fairly technical (on top of being over $40 for a 256 page book). Still, thanks for the recommendation. I hope to get it eventually, and it seems that based upon what you’ve said, it’ll be a worthwhile read.
 
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