Mind Exercise

[setarcos]

Rules cannot be created. They are simply concepts which can be comprehended by intellectual beings. Theories exist a priorie (you need intellectual being in order imagine them). Time in another hand is back bone, the fundamental variable for any theory, of every theory and therefore it cannot be emergent. Knowledge is structured in term of theories and knowledge is needed for act of creation. But the theory in which time is an emergent thing does not exist therefore time cannot be created.

I love the way you argue a position. You seem to me to make the simple overly complex and the actual complex overly simplified. I just want to give you a big virtual hug and observe you ponder the mysteries of existence.
I will say this though, rules not only can be created, anyone who has played board games with overly competitive friends can attest to this, but they must be created in order to have a coherent existence. Either by nature, by God, or by man. As an emergent quality of cause and effect as from nature, by direct and Intelligent design such as from God, or to a lesser degree by deliberate enforcement from man for instance. Rules can be comprehended but not necessarily so. Most people go through life experiencing the rules of nature without having the foggiest idea why or how they work. In this fashion one might say that rules dictate and/or control behavior. Theories are created a priori, they are created ad secundarium. Principally from observations of implicit or explicit sensory experience of existence in some manner. Yes you need intellectual equipment to formulate a theory but typically you don’t, or shouldn’t, formulate a theory and then look for any existent thing to apply it to. You reflect upon experience and then formulate a theory after testing numerous hypothesis etc… Time may be a quality of our creation but it by no means has to be factored into every theory of creations emergent qualities. Quantum fluctuations of virtual particles for instance need take no conceptions of time into consideration. What about thought? Once initiated no consideration of time is needed. Quantum entanglement between two particles separated by some distance is instantaneous. There are many theories that don’t need time to be coherent and consistent. You make a logical fallacy by claiming that since time is a quality of our existence it cannot be an emergent quality along with creation and consequently neither can creation be an emergent quality of existence. Theories are created models of discovered facts. Simply because a theory doesn’t exist yet does not mean that theory will never be formulated as a model of something that exists. Nor does it mean that what that theory may model cannot exist because a theory hasn’t been created yet to model it.

 

[STT]

I love the way you argue a position. You seem to me to make the simple overly complex and the actual complex overly simplified. I just want to give you a big virtual hug and observe you ponder the mysteries of existence.

Thanks. A virtual hug from my side.

I will say this though, rules not only can be created, anyone who has played board games with overly competitive friends can attest to this, but they must be created in order to have a coherent existence. Either by nature, by God, or by man. As an emergent quality of cause and effect as from nature, by direct and Intelligent design such as from God, or to a lesser degree by deliberate enforcement from man for instance. Rules can be comprehended but not necessarily so. Most people go through life experiencing the rules of nature without having the foggiest idea why or how they work. In this fashion one might say that rules dictate and/or control behavior.

You of course can create rules in your mind. What I am stressing is that rules are mental. God however knows all rules therefore He doesn’t need to create any rule. God however create or produce things which works accordingly but to do this He should create a sort of substance which obeys certain set of rules. In that sense rules are the basic properties of the substance rather than something separate which can be created.

setarcos:

Theories are created a priori, they are created ad secundarium. Principally from observations of implicit or explicit sensory experience of existence in some manner. Yes you need intellectual equipment to formulate a theory but typically you don’t, or shouldn’t, formulate a theory and then look for any existent thing to apply it to. You reflect upon experience and then formulate a theory after testing numerous hypothesis etc…

That I agree.

Time may be a quality of our creation but it by no means has to be factored into every theory of creations emergent qualities.

Well, if need to test your *dynamical *theory then you should set up an experiment and see whether the subject of experiment evolves properly according to the theory which this means that time is fundamental variable of any dynamical theory.

Quantum fluctuations of virtual particles for instance need take no conceptions of time into consideration.

Virtual particles obey the uncertainty principle meaning that they could exist only in a time interval which is proportional by inverse of their energy.

What about thought? Once initiated no consideration of time is needed.

I cannot understand this example and how is related to a theory.

Quantum entanglement between two particles separated by some distance is instantaneous.

That I agree.

There are many theories that don’t need time to be coherent and consistent.

Yes, but the theory for the act of creation is dynamical since things most importantly time should emerge from it and that is not possible since the theory is dynamical and you need time in order to formulate it.

You make a logical fallacy by claiming that since time is a quality of our existence it cannot be an emergent quality along with creation and consequently neither can creation be an emergent quality of existence.

I don’t make any logical fallacy. The theory of creation is a dynamical theory therefore it needs time and in the same time time should emerge from this theory which this is contradictory.

Theories are created models of discovered facts. Simply because a theory doesn’t exist yet does not mean that theory will never be formulated as a model of something that exists. Nor does it mean that what that theory may model cannot exist because a theory hasn’t been created yet to model it.

As I showed there exist not any dynamical theory which time emerge from it.

 

[seagal]

What boundaries does time have after its creation? Is there a boundary where one can say here time rules, there, time is not to be found, only God. Doesn’t God have to encompass time since no where is God not to be found? If time must have its existence within God how is it that something within Gods eternal uniformity doesn’t exist and then does? Oh yes, and how do we not think about a chair after being asked not to think about a chair?

All good questions, for which I have no answer

 

[seagal]

Any physical theory needs time in order to show that the theory is successful in predicting future. We then deduce that the theory is correct. Therefore a physical theory which claims time as a emergent entity does not exist. Therefore time is elementary and cannot be created.

If you think of time as a measure of change, then time was created at the moment of the big bang when everything changed.

There are many theories of time and there are many theories pertaining to God’s relationship with time. Amusing to discuss but you won’t find a definitive answer this side of the grave.

 

[STT]

If you think of time as a measure of change, then time was created at the moment of the big bang when everything changed.

There are many theories of time and there are many theories pertaining to God’s relationship with time. Amusing to discuss but you won’t find a definitive answer this side of the grave.

The problem is that the theory of creation is a dynamical theory since we are dealing with changes. This means that time is fundamental variable for this theory. Therefore time itself cannot be an emergent property of this theory.

 

[setarcos]

The problem is that the theory of creation is a dynamical theory since we are dealing with changes. This means that time is fundamental variable for this theory. Therefore time itself cannot be an emergent property of this theory.

Ahhh, I see what your saying. You must realize though that there is a difference between the theory of creation which would refer only to its workings within itself - This theory would include time as a factor in these workings - and a theory of creation as regards its ultimate origin which wouldn’t include time as a factor since for all intents and purposes once initiated simultaneously as a thought in the mind of God and an existent reality defined by us as creation no time is expended. This is what I meant by thought requires no time. From having no thought to having a thought expends no time. So if you are using time to prove anything, it can only be used as a factor after that barrier which we would define as creations beginnings, as time pertains only to those measureable moments within it as a mental construction of the human mind. You believe no action can take place without time as a factor. This may be true within creation because time is a part of creations working framework. Suppose we travel, with Gods help and protection, to before the beginning of creation where time is none existent. What would it be like? I haven’t the foggiest notion since my sensory equipment has been uniquely created for and adapted to this space/time creation we find ourselves in now. Perhaps there would only be pure thought/spirit in which thought is simultaneously action and you wouldn’t be able to distinguish between any expenditure of “time” between one thought and the next or when in eternity this thought happened or that thought happened or how long it took to think it since all these references require a passage of time. One cannot say God sat and did what he did for so many eons until he thought creation into existence. It would be the same to say creation was thought up yesterday, a year ago, a second ago, to God simply because there is no reference frame with which to compare times. Time is a closed reference frame applicable only to what takes place physically within creation.

 

[STT]

Ahhh, I see what your saying. You must realize though that there is a difference between the theory of creation which would refer only to its workings within itself - This theory would include time as a factor in these workings - and a theory of creation as regards its ultimate origin which wouldn’t include time as a factor since for all intents and purposes once initiated simultaneously as a thought in the mind of God and an existent reality defined by us as creation no time is expended.

The theory of creation is like this A(N)->U where A is act of creation when there is nothing and then the universe which work internally well. Therefore time is involved in this two steps process. Time in another is part of creation which this together with the last argument leads to a contradiction. One however need to show that the act of creation is logically possible.

This is what I meant by thought requires no time. From having no thought to having a thought expends no time. So if you are using time to prove anything, it can only be used as a factor after that barrier which we would define as creations beginnings, as time pertains only to those measureable moments within it as a mental construction of the human mind.

There should be a moment that God doubts about the act of creation when there is nothing and then decide and then act. This is contrary since impose God inside time.

Unfortunately I cannot understand how an actual being could have potential/doubt.

You believe no action can take place without time as a factor. This may be true within creation because time is a part of creations working framework. Suppose we travel, with Gods help and protection, to before the beginning of creation where time is none existent. What would it be like? I haven’t the foggiest notion since my sensory equipment has been uniquely created for and adapted to this space/time creation we find ourselves in now. Perhaps there would only be pure thought/spirit in which thought is simultaneously action and you wouldn’t be able to distinguish between any expenditure of “time” between one thought and the next or when in eternity this thought happened or that thought happened or how long it took to think it since all these references require a passage of time. One cannot say God sat and did what he did for so many eons until he thought creation into existence. It would be the same to say creation was thought up yesterday, a year ago, a second ago, to God simply because there is no reference frame with which to compare times. Time is a closed reference frame applicable only to what takes place physically within creation.

If that possible then only spirits could exist.