Mind games: Who am I?

[squirt]

This is something I posted in another thread … just one of the weird type of semi-fillersoffical things I think about now and then.

If we taken as given that Satan exists, and that our thoughts can be influenced by him, how do I know what the dividing line is between my personal thoughts and those that don’t ‘belong’ to me? Who am “I”? Same goes for God influencing our thoughts …

Any thoughts? Comments?

 

[chrisg93]

Good question. I’ve wondered the same thing. The only sure fire answer is prayer and humility. If you have these two you will be yourself.

The Devil can’t influence your thoughts unless you want him to. “Resist the Devil and he will flee”.

God can influence your thoughts and does it all the time. “all things work for good to those who love God”.

I’ve had questions of a peculrar nature like this also. I wish there was a way to ask without being a hog.

Thanks for your question, hope my answer makes helps a little anyway.

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

Any thoughts? Comments?

Sounds like solipsism to me.

Prove or disprove that you are not the proverbial “brain in a vat”.

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

Sounds like solipsism to me.

Prove or disprove that you are not the proverbial “brain in a vat”.

How can it be solipsism if I believe that others (some corporeal, some not) exist???

Any other solipsists out there??? (A little metaphysical humour … think about it, eh?)

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

How can it be solipsism if I believe that others (some corporeal, some not) exist???

Any other solipsists out there??? (A little metaphysical humour … think about it, eh?)

How do you know that this belief is justified? Once you question whether or not your thoughts can be under the influence, all bets are off.

Good joke, by the way. I’ll have to remember it.

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

How do you know that this belief is justified? Once you question whether or not your thoughts can be under the influence, all bets are off.

Good joke, by the way. I’ll have to remember it.

I’ve got to go on a gut instinct. It would be a shame if you weren’t real …

addendum: The joy of being a theist … it creates as many problems as it solves.

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

I’ve got to go on a gut instinct. It would be a shame if you weren’t real …

addendum: The joy of being a theist … it creates as many problems as it solves.

Why, thank you.

Just to be sure – unless one is a hardened agnostic, I literally believe that any foray into solipsism should be medically supervised.

By the way, the philosophically minded atheists stay that way because theistic belief just increases their workload.

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

Just to be sure – unless one is a hardened agnostic, I literally believe that any foray into solipsism should be medically supervised.

By whom??? I

 

[Mystagogy]

squirt:

This is something I posted in another thread … just one of the weird type of semi-fillersoffical things I think about now and then.

If we taken as given that Satan exists, and that our thoughts can be influenced by him, how do I know what the dividing line is between my personal thoughts and those that don’t ‘belong’ to me? Who am “I”? Same goes for God influencing our thoughts …

Any thoughts? Comments?

Perhaps one could test all things, holding on to what is good.

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

By whom??? I

I yield. Well done.

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

I yield. Well done.

It seems to me that Christianity and solipsism are incompatible.

It’s hard to believe in a creator of ‘heaven and earth’ and to believe that ‘heaven and earth’ don’t exist … and it’s hard to believe in Someone who is both human and divine, knowing that that person is not you, and not believing that other humans exist.

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

It seems to me that Christianity and solipsism are incompatible.

Perhaps, but just because something might be a figment of your imagination or an externally injected idea doesn’t make it untrue. It’s then just that much harder to justify religious belief by adding another level of indirection.

If we assume, only for the sake of argument of course, that both God and Satan influence our thoughts, be it ever so subtly, then what about our free will (if we have any)?

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

Perhaps, but just because something might be a figment of your imagination or an externally injected idea doesn’t make it untrue. It’s then just that much harder to justify religious belief by adding another level of indirection.

I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here. In what sense is a figment of my imagination true, except by chance. Or is that what you are getting at?

(Does anybody else see the irony of having this conversation with a wolpertinger??? )

What do you mean by a ‘level of indirection’? You’ve lost me on that one. Of course, it doesn’t take all that much for me to get lost sometimes …

If we assume, only for the sake of argument of course, that both God and Satan influence our thoughts, be it ever so subtly, then what about our free will (if we have any)?

I still have to decide which thoughts to act on and pursue … in some sense I have to ‘claim ownership’ to some thoughts and act accordingly.

 

[squirt]

Mystagogy:

Perhaps one could test all things, holding on to what is good.

That’s the goal …

 

[tcaseyrochester]

squirt:

This is something I posted in another thread … just one of the weird type of semi-fillersoffical things I think about now and then.

If we taken as given that Satan exists, and that our thoughts can be influenced by him, how do I know what the dividing line is between my personal thoughts and those that don’t ‘belong’ to me? Who am “I”? Same goes for God influencing our thoughts …

Any thoughts? Comments?

Pray, pray and pray some more. Your heart will tell you what is yours, God’s or Satan’s.

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here. In what sense is a figment of my imagination true, except by chance. Or is that what you are getting at?

What do you mean by a ‘level of indirection’? You’ve lost me on that one. Of course, it doesn’t take all that much for me to get lost sometimes …

Poor wording. With solipsism, you are sort of beyond reality’s event horizon. Nothing you know, think, or perceive is beyond doubt.

Level of indirection was not a good way to put it. What I meant was that as a brain in the vat, you have to make it a matter of faith that there is a world around you before you can even start on chasing butterflies or walking the dog, say, never mind religious belief.

Christianity and solipsism are thus not incompatible (I think), but amount to two beliefs stacked on top of each other that must be concurrently justified and reconciled. Not quite a philosophical or theological cake walk.

(Does anybody else see the irony of having this conversation with a wolpertinger??? )

Sshhhhh!

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

Level of indirection was not a good way to put it. What I meant was that as a brain in the vat, you have to make it a matter of faith that there is a world around you before you can even start on chasing butterflies or walking the dog, say, never mind religious belief.

Christianity and solipsism are thus not incompatible (I think), but amount to two beliefs stacked on top of each other that must be concurrently justified and reconciled. Not quite a philosophical or theological cake walk.

But making it a matter of faith that there is a world around you is denying your solipsism, isn’t it? You’d be believing in something that you fundamentally deny via your solipsism … I think.

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

But making it a matter of faith that there is a world around you is denying your solipsism, isn’t it? You’d be believing in something that you fundamentally deny via your solipsism … I think.

Let me take an Advil and get back to you…

I am, upon reflection, working from an improper definition.

Solipsism is the belief that only onself exists; everything else is just a part of one’s mind. This is, by definition, incompatible with Christianity in more than just one way.

The brain-in-the-vat is close, but not quite the same thing. It amounts to the ultimate agnosticism (not just in the theological sense) and in this case, a belief in the world and in Christianity is possible(1), but neither can’t be justified.

I still think that the assumption of divine and satanic interference with our thoughts infringes on whatever free will we have. What you said earlier is analog to saying that the program code (that exercises free will) is inviolate, but the data used as a base for decisions is tampered with. Which takes us sort of back full circle.

More Advil is advised.

(1) An agnostic theist is an odd construct, somebody who says that it’s impossible to prove or disprove god’s existence, but believes nevertheless.

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

I still think that the assumption of divine and satanic interference with our thoughts infringes on whatever free will we have. What you said earlier is analog to saying that the program code (that exercises free will) is inviolate, but the data used as a base for decisions is tampered with. Which takes us sort of back full circle.

Or it gives us a need to use our free will.

From personal (perceived) experience, I’m not talking about very many thoughts … just very occasional ‘anomalous’ thoughts.

I’m pretty sure that most thoughts are my own. Heck, they ain’t too brilliant.

Do I ever ‘perceive’ that God has directly influenced a thought? … yeah … once … a matter of a couple of seconds in a life time … a thought that kind of ‘blind-sided’ me … and it was a ‘thought’ that I could choose to act on or not. My one and only ‘mystical’ thought experience. A few short seconds in a few decades of life …

Do I ever ‘perceive’ that what a Christian theist might call ‘the evil one’ has directly influenced a thought. Well, rightly or wrongly, I tend to claim ownership of my blasphemous thoughts. But maybe when they come seemingly out of nowhere when I’m trying to pray, they aren’t originating completely from me. Regardless, I have to decide whether or not to pay attention to them or try to bring my attention back to prayer.

I don’t know if this makes any sense to an atheist mindset … but I couldn’t figure out how to say it without drawing on personal experience.

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

I don’t know if this makes any sense to an atheist mindset … but I couldn’t figure out how to say it without drawing on personal experience.

It makes perfect sense. Of course, rather than attribute a “where did that come from?” thought to a supernatural origin, something bubbling up from the subconscious works for me as an explanation.