Mindless thought!

[tonyrey]

Is physical energy an adequate explanation of intelligent activity? What is your opinion - and why?

 

[GEddie]

Well no.

It requires energy to think, just as it does to see or move, but energy alone is not thought. Else you could think by shaking your head!

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

Is physical energy an adequate explanation of intelligent activity? What is your opinion - and why?

Imagine showing a television to a lost tribe of people who have had no contact with the outside world. Now try explaining to them that the picture and sound of the television comes from broadcasting companies. The tribal people would probably look at you like you were nuts, insisting that the sound and picture were originating from within the television set itself.

Now, rethink where consciousness comes from; might it be that this is the working of spirits that originate from afar, and not merely a product of our brain? And, just as the picture of the TV would be disrupted through a malfunction, so too with the brain.

It’s interesting to note that human beings make great television antennas. I do not think this is coincidental. Think about it, how is it that TV and radio signals pass through the human body?

Are we passive receptors of our consciousness, via the Spirit of God? This is profound, with lots of implications, but I do believe so.

 

[GEddie]

Imagine showing a television to a lost tribe of people who have had no contact with the outside world. Now try explaining to them that the picture and sound of the television comes from broadcasting companies. The tribal people would probably look at you like you were nuts, insisting that the sound and picture were originating from within the television set itself.

Now, rethink where consciousness comes from; might it be that this is the working of spirits that originate from afar, and not merely a product of our brain? And, just as the picture of the TV would be disrupted through a malfunction, so too with the brain.

It’s interesting to note that human beingsse make great television antennas. I do not think this is coincidental. Think about it, how is it that TV and radio signals pass through the human body?

Are we passive receptors of our consciousness, via the Spirit of God? This is profound, with lots of implications, but I do believe so.

No, our human soul generates the consciousness, as well as the life. That is why dead bodies are not conscious.

The human soul uses his or her head to convert sense impressions from eyes, nose, skin etc. to mind; and to write memories.

We each possess an individual soul and so do not “share a mind.”

The TV antenna thing is simple. Our liquid-filled, semisolid human bodies act as big, breathing electric capacitors. No mystery there.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No, our human soul generates the consciousness, as well as the life. That is why dead bodies are not conscious.

The human soul uses his or her head to convert sense impressions from eyes, nose, skin etc. to mind; and to write memories.

We each possess an individual soul and so do not “share a mind.”

The TV antenna thing is simple. Our liquid-filled, semisolid human bodies act as big, breathing electric capacitors. No mystery there.

ICXC NIKA.

Think of it as each of us being a separate channel.

 

[Beryllos]

Is physical energy an adequate explanation of intelligent activity? What is your opinion - and why?

I am not quite sure what you mean by physical energy, adequate explanation, or intelligent activity. Could you elaborate?

I would assume by physical energy you mean the chemical and electrical processes which power and regulate the inner workings of the brain, by intelligent activity perhaps you mean consciousness or thought, and by adequate explanation you ask whether the laws of nature offer a full description without resorting to supernatural concepts. Then I would answer yes. Without God’s power and mercy, our death would extinguish our mind and thought forever. How does God take us from this worldly life to eternal life? That is a great mystery.

 

[tonyrey]

I am not quite sure what you mean by physical energy, adequate explanation, or intelligent activity. Could you elaborate?

I would assume by physical energy you mean the chemical and electrical processes which power and regulate the inner workings of the brain, by intelligent activity perhaps you mean consciousness or thought, and by adequate explanation you ask whether the laws of nature offer a full description without resorting to supernatural concepts. Then I would answer yes. Without God’s power and mercy, our death would extinguish our mind and thought forever. How does God take us from this worldly life to eternal life? That is a great mystery.

Do you mean the laws of nature are sufficient to explain the existence of mind and thought?

 

[Beryllos]

Do you mean the laws of nature are sufficient to explain the existence of mind and thought?

Yes, that is what I mean. I can’t prove it, but I think it is a case of emergence.
(wikipedia link to emergence)
From simple laws of physics, chemistry becomes possible. Chemistry, that is, the reactions and interactions of molecules, cannot be adequately described or understood in terms of simple laws of physics, but no one doubts that all chemical behavior is based on simple laws of physics and requires no added “ingredient” to account for the complexity.

In a similar way, from chemical reactions and interactions, biology (living things) becomes possible. Biology is incredibly more complex, but I don’t doubt that chemistry and physics are the entire basis for life and biology. No supernatural ingredient is necessary for life to exist.

I happen to believe that from biological structures and processes, brain and mind and thought become possible. It doesn’t stop there; when you put a bunch of thinking life forms together, higher levels of complexity emerge: society, law, religion, economics, technology, war, and so on.

That is not to say that all that exists is physical. One may yet believe that God created this universe and laid down its simple laws that make such wonderfully complex things possible. One may believe that God intended for us to exist, and for us to begin to know and love him and appreciate his love for us. One may believe that he would take on flesh, walk among us, teach us, suffer, die, and rise from the dead in order that we might have a new and infinitely richer life beyond this world. This I believe.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, that is what I mean. I can’t prove it, but I think it is a case of emergence.(wikipedia link to emergence)From simple laws of physics, chemistry becomes possible. Chemistry, that is, the reactions and interactions of molecules, cannot be adequately described or understood in terms of simple laws of physics, but no one doubts that all chemical behavior is based on simple laws of physics and requires no added “ingredient” to account for the complexity.

In a similar way, from chemical reactions and interactions, biology (living things) becomes possible. Biology is incredibly more complex, but I don’t doubt that chemistry and physics are the entire basis for life and biology. No supernatural ingredient is necessary for life to exist.

I happen to believe that from biological structures and processes, brain and mind and thought become possible. It doesn’t stop there; when you put a bunch of thinking life forms together, higher levels of complexity emerge: society, law, religion, economics, technology, war, and so on.

That is not to say that all that exists is physical. One may yet believe that God created this universe and laid down its simple laws that make such wonderfully complex things possible. One may believe that God intended for us to exist, and for us to begin to know and love him and appreciate his love for us. One may believe that he would take on flesh, walk among us, teach us, suffer, die, and rise from the dead in order that we might have a new and infinitely richer life beyond this world. This I believe.

How did impersonal, mindless, purposeless processes produce persons?

 

[Beryllos]

How did impersonal, mindless, purposeless processes produce persons?

I don’t know, but it seems to me that it did happen. I am guessing that it pleased God to create a universe in which such things are not only possible but inevitable. “God moves in a mysterious way, His wonders to perform.”

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t know, but it seems to me that it did happen. I am guessing that it pleased God to create a universe in which such things are not only possible but inevitable. “God moves in a mysterious way, His wonders to perform.”

In that case physical causes alone are an inadequate explanation of thought:

Humanists, who deny that God is the source of human reason, are left sitting precariously on a branch of chance and time with no guarantees that their reasoning is sound.24 In Miracles, Lewis remarks, “If all that exists is Nature, the great mindless interlocking event, if our own deepest convictions are merely the by-products of an irrational process, then clearly there is not the slightest ground for supposing that our sense of fitness and our consequent faith in uniformity tell us anything about a reality external to ourselves.”25 Christianity’s explanation that humans are created in the image of a rational God and thus are rational beings makes more sense than the chance and time explanation of the humanist. In short, the existence of human reason is more adequately explained by intelligent design than by random chance.

equip.org/article/greatness-and-wretchedness/#christian-books-2

 

[N0X3x]

How did impersonal, mindless, purposeless processes produce persons?

I might as well ask you How a personal, purposeful mind (God) produced matter from nothing.

Either a mind can produce physical matter and processes, or else physical processes and matter can produce a mind. Both claims are equally absurd and shocking(and in fact, to some people, the former process is more absurd), and yet one of the two must be true.

 

[Beryllos]

In that case physical causes alone are an inadequate explanation of thought:

Humanists, who deny that God is the source of human reason, are left sitting precariously on a branch of chance and time with no guarantees that their reasoning is sound.24 In Miracles

Thanks for the link. I will read the whole article later.

I am not sure why you quote that passage about humanism. I think my philosophy is closer to materialism, except I am not a very strict materialist. I’m more of a “cafeteria” materialist.

In my view, one aspect of our fallen nature is that we are biological. “For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” In this life, our consciousness and thoughts exist wholly in the biological/material realm. Without God’s power and love, death would be utter and final. Even prior to death, our mind can be incapacitated by disease, injury, or drugs.

But the situation is far from hopeless. Jesus the Christ has redeemed us. Give praise and thanks to God!

 

[GEddie]

Thanks for the link. I will read the whole article later.

I am not sure why you quote that passage about humanism. I think my philosophy is closer to materialism, except I am not a very strict materialist. I’m more of a “cafeteria” materialist.

In my view, one aspect of our fallen nature is that we are biological. “For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” In this life, our consciousness and thoughts exist wholly in the biological/material realm. Without God’s power and love, death would be utter and final. Even prior to death, our mind can be incapacitated by disease, injury, or drugs.

But the situation is far from hopeless. Jesus the Christ has redeemed us. Give praise and thanks to God!

We are biological, but our mind, though biologically dependent, is spiritual and can aspire to eternity.

In eternity, we will be restored to the pneumatikon soma, a human body who is, among other attributes, without modesty or hygienic requirements.

It should be ok to be nekkid then.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Beryllos]

… Indeed, as Adam and Eve were.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Is physical energy an adequate explanation of intelligent activity? What is your opinion - and why?

Without energy of some sort, all things alive, or indeed mechanical or electronic, remain inert/inactive

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks for the link. I will read the whole article later.

I am not sure why you quote that passage about humanism. I think my philosophy is closer to materialism, except I am not a very strict materialist. I’m more of a “cafeteria” materialist.

In my view, one aspect of our fallen nature is that we are biological. “For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” In this life, our consciousness and thoughts exist wholly in the biological/material realm. Without God’s power and love, death would be utter and final. Even prior to death, our mind can be incapacitated by disease, injury, or drugs.

But the situation is far from hopeless. Jesus the Christ has redeemed us. Give praise and thanks to God!

Most “humanists” in our society are materialists. They don’t believe in God, the soul or anything spiritual. How can we have free will, moral responsibility or the capacity for unselfish love if our consciousness and thoughts exist wholly in the biological/material realm?

 

[tonyrey]

Without energy of some sort, all things alive, or indeed mechanical or electronic, remain inert/inactive

What about spiritual energy?

 

[tonyrey]

How

Our primary datum and sole certainty is that we have a mind. We infer the existence of matter. So it is reasonable to explain the universe as the product of rational, creative activity rather than purposeless molecules. Materialism is a hopelessly inadequate explanation of reality. It amounts to believing mindless objects have accidentally become capable of knowing they exist and understanding themselves!

 

[oldcelt]

Our primary datum and sole certainty is that we have a mind. We infer the existence of matter. So it is reasonable to explain the universe as the product of rational, creative activity rather than purposeless molecules. Materialism is a hopelessly inadequate explanation of reality. It amounts to believing mindless objects have accidentally become capable of knowing they exist and understanding themselves!

Not so difficult, given billions of years.