Minimum Requirements for Practising Catholics

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I do not mean to sound condescending, but are you saying that because Lamb of God, a prayer with which I suspect you are very familiar, was changed to Agnus Dei, that you suddenly no longer know what it means? As others have suggested, I would recommend that you take some time to learn simple prayers like the Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin, as well as the Kyrie in Greek (that one literally requires you to learn 3 words). I suspect that learning these prayers, along with the Pater Noster, would take about 15 minutes, maybe 20 if you’re tired. Give it a shot.
I agree. Perhaps I underestimate it because I’m French Canadian and Latin isn’t too big of an obstacle for me, but the Ordinary of the Mass is fairly simple to learn and understand. I sing in a Gregorian schola and am often surprised that when we sing the ordinary, in average parishes, quite a few folks, and not all folks that remember the pre-conciliar Mass, do know the ordinary. As long as the simpler settings are used, most folks should be able to pick it up pretty quickly.

Where I normally attend Mass, a Benedictine abbey, the Propers and Ordinary are all in Gregorian chant and Latin/Greek (in the Ordinary Form). The Mass is packed every Sunday. The only way to have a fairly empty abbey church at Sunday Mass is for God to send along a blizzard 😛

So there is a demand. What the abbey can’t bring to parishes since they are a cloistered community, our small schola attempts to do, and people seem to appreciate it.

As for the Hail Mary, it’s already been pointed out that this is not part of the liturgy of the Mass, but it’s reasonable to pray it after the dismissal. Dropping it, however, is equally permissible, and if it had been used during the Mass itself, Father was correct to drop it, it is not a licit option in the rubrics.
 
Agnus Dei in Latin and English:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnus_Dei_%28music%29

Maybe a Missal similar to this one would help: amazon.com/Roman-Missal-1962-English-Latin/dp/0954563123

If you don’t want to carry around a missal, you could create your own pew card with the English version of the prayer(s) in one column and the Latin version(s) in the next column.

OP, you said, " Inflicting it on the unwilling drives people away - it is the reason I have no devotion to the Blessed Mother and why I detest (and that is not over-strong) the rosary."

The above I do not understand. I learned the Rosary in English, or is it that you feel that you have to have devotion to the Blessed Mother and “detest the rosary” because you feel it is has been imposed upon you?

The Blessed Mother is the first disciple and she is the highest discipleship possible. The Blessed Mother never said no to God. The Rosary is based on the Gospels. If you believe in the Gospels, then I would think that you wouldn’t “detest the rosary.” I can understand that some people do not like praying it, but “detesting” it? :confused:
 
The Church has celebrated Mass in Latin for hundreds of years, and while I understand your concern about not understanding, most people didn’t understand Latin before the 1960s, and I’m sure spiritually speaking, their souls were not imperiled.
Those who cared to were able to obtain an English(or most any language)/Latin Missal and could follow along just fine.
 


Many Churches are adding bilingual Masses

Not to add to the problem here, but with the influx of Hispanic Americans in the last few years, not only do we have the regular latin words for a part of the Mass, but half of our Mass is in Spanish! I grant you that it is different, but these people have difficulty understanding English so it is for their benefit.

I suspect that it is for our benefit also as we all tend to want what we want and when we want it. God is just giving us a chance to become more charitable to others. Besides, everything is in the Missalette so I just follow along and read the English while our priest is speaking Spanish to the others.

A few years back I attended Mass at a small Hispanic Convent when I visited my folks. I wasn’t familiar with the area and this was the closest place that I knew about. Many days the Mass was only in Spanish and while I knew basically what was going on, it was definitely a growing experience. God is going to allow us all to be pushed on from time to time. If he didn’t, many of us would never grow! 🤷
 
One song in Latin a few weeks ago and one Kyrie in the penitential rite do not a Latin Mass make.
I never said it did. In your frustration with the OP you have read a lot into my post.
I myself, prefer the Mass in English. that’s it.
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In general, my answers are:

Sorry, I am still frazzled - it was the Lamb of God that was changed to Latin.

It was a shock, especially as our priest knows that very few of us speak or understand Latin. He also knows his parishioners and had the opportunity to warn people. Our Bishop wanted a Latin song sung after mass earlier in the year other people complained and asked for English, and before I could add my voice, our priest announced very joyfully (and with relief) that as it was Lent we didn’t have to sing it.

No effort has been made by the Diocese to encourage or teach people Latin, in fact the emphasis has been on living the faith and learning the faith.
You don’t really need to learn Latin. “Lamb of God” in Latin is simply “Agnus Dei,” and it goes:

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.


It’s the same as in English.
On the issue of what a good Catholic is supposed to know - be able to memorise prayers or obtain knowledge by osmosis is not reality. Surely it is about learning and living the faith, worshiping God and following Jesus? Learning liturgical Latin (which I understand isn’t the same as Latin Latin) is not the key to our faith, yes it is part of Church history and it is being preserved by those who want to preserve it. Inflicting it on the unwilling drives people away - it is the reason I have no devotion to the Blessed Mother and why I detest (and that is not over-strong) the rosary.
I would have to completely disagree with you here. The memorized prayers actually assist me in keeping my focus. What difference does it make if it’s in Latin? You learn to pray it and understand it through the translation. But it is a part of the Church’s heritage, which is encouraged, not discouraged.
As for learning Latin, when would I do that? If you knew what I do, you would be hard pressed to find the time for me to set aside. Even now I am doing another online ministry and rescheduling our adult faith-based evening, as I type here. Our parish has no money, which is why the few volunteers buy everything out of their wages or pensions.
The whole thing is a shock and the lack of warning is not what I would call considerate. I am praying that this will go away like the earlier Latin song and then if there is a desire and/or need for Latin that it will be brought in properly and the rest of us can have our traditional reverent and prayerful English mass.
You don’t have to learn Latin. It’s a translation, so presumably, if you understand what’s going on in the English Mass, it’ll be the same when it’s in its Latin original. A missal or a quick search online can help you understand the parts you’re missing.
By the way, when I when I go on holiday I look for an English mass before I book the holiday - no mass = no holiday.
So you would completely jettison any vacation plans because the Mass isn’t in English?
 
I agree. Perhaps I underestimate it because I’m French Canadian and Latin isn’t too big of an obstacle for me, but the Ordinary of the Mass is fairly simple to learn and understand. I sing in a Gregorian schola and am often surprised that when we sing the ordinary, in average parishes, quite a few folks, and not all folks that remember the pre-conciliar Mass, do know the ordinary. As long as the simpler settings are used, most folks should be able to pick it up pretty quickly.

Where I normally attend Mass, a Benedictine abbey, the Propers and Ordinary are all in Gregorian chant and Latin/Greek (in the Ordinary Form). The Mass is packed every Sunday. The only way to have a fairly empty abbey church at Sunday Mass is for God to send along a blizzard 😛
I’m one of those “geeks” that has a playlist of Gregorian chant and other forms of Sacred Music and plays it in his car and at work. I’m in your boat in that my first language is Italian, so there are some things I can pick up - at the same time, while similar, Latin truly is a different language and you either have to pay very close attention to pick up what’s similar or pick up a missal.
So there is a demand. What the abbey can’t bring to parishes since they are a cloistered community, our small schola attempts to do, and people seem to appreciate it.
Well I hope one day you’ll be able to travel with your schola outside Canada and visit a couple parishes in Connecticut, USA.
 
Those who cared to were able to obtain an English(or most any language)/Latin Missal and could follow along just fine.
You are assuming that a person in past eras was literate…when they often weren’t. And, in fact, the widespread availability of such worship aids does not go back that many generations, either.
 
Well I hope one day you’ll be able to travel with your schola outside Canada and visit a couple parishes in Connecticut, USA.
You have a most beautiful – and extraordinary – Benedictine abbey in Connecticut.
 
What are the minimum requirements for practising Catholics which will not imperil the soul?

The background is that last week the Hail Mary was dropped from the mass and replaced with a Latin song (only a few people knew it and we thought it was a one off) and this week, without notice the Lord Have Mercy was replaced with Latin (again, only a few knew it). We have been told that all Sunday masses will be part Latin and part English (even though only a handful of people speak the language). There are Latin masses for Latin speakers, in fact there were masses for most languages, but now it looks like the Church in our area sees no need to cater for native English people. I cannot fully participate in a mass, if I do not understand it; and refuse to offer vain and repetitious prayers.

I have emailed Father to ask why this is happening and if there will English masses offered for people who do not understand Latin. The whole thing is very distressing and frightening (it is one step away from Jesus saying “Go away, I don’t know you”), if the Church founded by Jesus rejects you then there is little hope and nowhere to go.

I do not think our parish priest has willingly done this and suspect it is from the Bishop. I just do not understand. All I can think of is trying to get to the root of what is the minimum requirements if the Church will not allow me to meet my obligations without compromising integrity.
Your post brings back many memories of days before I reached the moment of retirement from pastoral responsibility. When I was a pastor, it was very painful to confront the reality that, whatever decision I made, there would be people not only unhappy but invariably outraged.

In some places the diocesan bishop and in other places the priests more recently ordained have a zeal for Latin less present than in another time. It is a language that I taught once upon a time, one I came to know in my distant youth. On the one hand, I appreciated those who had some interest in the language. I always understood those who had no interest in it. It is a language. It played a unique role in Christianity – some positive, some negative.

In Sacrosanctum Concilium and in Jubilate Deo there is expressed the need that Latin be “preserved” and that there are parts of the Mass that every Roman Rite Catholic ought to be able to say and even sing. On the other hand, the Council Fathers said that ultimately the extent of the use of the vernacular they permitted was to be determined by the Conferences of Bishops diffused throughout the world and that their determinations then had to be confirmed by the Holy See. The determination of the world’s bishops, who are the successors to the apostles after all, was that the extension of the vernacular was to be without limit. And in each manifestation of this determination, the Holy See gave confirmation.

I confess, I am confused by one thing you say…“Latin speakers.” I don’t encounter them very often…and the largest concentration I have found are actually in Finland, remarkably. Since you reference English, I make bold to presume that you are not Finnish. Is it possible you find yourself in a parish where there is a university that has a Classics department?

For some people, Latin evokes nostalgia from their youth. For others, it is evocative of something they did not experience. Some like it. I remember, for example, in the years after the reform of the liturgy, we had two Masses in Latin in the diocese – and one other Mass weekly in which those parts of the ordinary that were sung were sung in Latin. These Masses were sparsely attended but those who did so were there because of the Latin and the Masses complied with preserving Latin’s use in the diocese; the contemplative nuns in the diocese also retained the use of Latin.

There are others, of course, who do not care for Latin and do not miss it or want to encounter it – and you are obviously in that camp. Like many of my confreres in the priesthood, I have dealt with both ends of the spectrum and every point in between relative to affinity for the language and its place in contemporary liturgy.

Beyond writing to your pastor, I encourage to write to the bishop of your diocese. Having worked in a chancery, I can assure you that people do write in to manifest their thoughts. There are those writing to ask for more Latin. There are those writing to express that they are grateful for the Masses that are completely and exclusively in the vernacular. You may add your voice to that side of the discussion. It is actually important to do that so that what the bishop “hears” is representative of his flock and not simply the clamoring of one or another segment.

I do counsel you, however, to accurately relay to the bishop what precisely is being done in Latin by your parish priest. It would irrevocably damage your credibility if you overstate the case…as the bishop will almost certainly query the priest about what he is actually doing (or have a curial official do so) in response to your letter. A marked disparity between the two expositions – from you and from the priest – will cause the bishop to inquire further and would cause him displeasure if he learns that the one writing to him exaggerated the matter.

Are you, perhaps, in a place where you can attend Mass in another parish or chapel that does not use Latin?

Finally, in answer to Ecclesiastical Latin not being “Latin Latin” (I am not sure how to understand that) I will just add that Ecclesiastical Latin truly is Latin…it is distinguishable to a Latinist. And, of course, in your own prayers, you would never have to use a language you don’t wish to use.
 
I just did a quick Google search: do you mean Regina Laudis in Bethlehem?
Yes. It is an extraordinary community. The first Abbess was an American who had become a nun in France but then returned to her native land to establish this abbey. It is a remarkable story.
 
Yes. It is an extraordinary community. The first Abbess was an American who had become a nun in France but then returned to her native land to establish this abbey. It is a remarkable story.
Well thank you for letting me know. Next week I will be off from work for a period of time and maybe I’ll reach out to the abbey and make a trip over there.
 
Thank you for your comments. I am sorry that I was offline yesterday. I cannot respond to each comment as there is a lot there.

Firstly, please bear in mind that when I pray, it has to be heart, mind and then lips i.e thinking and meaning. If I cannot think in Latin, then any words I utter are meaningless (the words vain and repetitive spring to mind). I am not judging others because I do not know their hearts and have no right to do so, and it doesn’t mean that my prayers are better (I doubt that they are - they are the best I can do).

As for qualifications for being a catechist, I have none - God called me very loudly even though I prayed that I didn’t have the charism of teaching. I am doing the best I can with a huge amount of help from Him. I know I am not the best catechist but the Bible is full of people who were not the best choices chosen by God above better qualified people. When He doesn’t want me to do a ministry He will release me from it.

I think that from the comments, things may be very different in your parishes. Our parish is the poorest parish in our area and until a year ago, it was dying but God is answering our prayers with a small steady growth in parishioners. Getting unpaid volunteers is difficult enough in our part of the UK, especially when you provide the resources yourself.

Yes, I had a meltdown and probably overreacted. I missed the announcement in the newsletter and did not know that when we lost the online version a new online site was set up for the parish. This weekend was important, the last chance to prepare the children for First Holy Communion and explaining the mystery of the Eucharist at children’s liturgy where, this week all but one child was under 5 years old. Rushing around on other things, is nothing, when compared to the the importance of both sessions, but it added to the situation.

Having apologised to my priest as he considerately answered my email quickly (he is aware that I tend to be a tad scrupulous now and then and have at least one faith related meltdown each year), I am praying as this does leave three concerns.

I am sorry about this, it has been difficult - especially Sunday which was spent in meltdown (a certain creature does get perverse pleasure in wrecking peace of mind). However, God has blessed me with a period of calm, started the healing process with a couple of suggestions and reminded me that I am at the parish I am meant to be and that part of my service is to support the Church and my parish priest. He also reminded me that I can be stubborn and obstinate to the extreme, which can be a blessing sometimes but isn’t most of the time.
 
Thank you for your comments. I am sorry that I was offline yesterday. I cannot respond to each comment as there is a lot there.

Firstly, please bear in mind that when I pray, it has to be heart, mind and then lips i.e thinking and meaning. If I cannot think in Latin, then any words I utter are meaningless (the words vain and repetitive spring to mind). I am not judging others because I do not know their hearts and have no right to do so, and it doesn’t mean that my prayers are better (I doubt that they are - they are the best I can do).

As for qualifications for being a catechist, I have none - God called me very loudly even though I prayed that I didn’t have the charism of teaching. I am doing the best I can with a huge amount of help from Him. I know I am not the best catechist but the Bible is full of people who were not the best choices chosen by God above better qualified people. When He doesn’t want me to do a ministry He will release me from it.

I think that from the comments, things may be very different in your parishes. Our parish is the poorest parish in our area and until a year ago, it was dying but God is answering our prayers with a small steady growth in parishioners. Getting unpaid volunteers is difficult enough in our part of the UK, especially when you provide the resources yourself.

Yes, I had a meltdown and probably overreacted. I missed the announcement in the newsletter and did not know that when we lost the online version a new online site was set up for the parish. This weekend was important, the last chance to prepare the children for First Holy Communion and explaining the mystery of the Eucharist at children’s liturgy where, this week all but one child was under 5 years old. Rushing around on other things, is nothing, when compared to the the importance of both sessions, but it added to the situation.

Having apologised to my priest as he considerately answered my email quickly (he is aware that I tend to be a tad scrupulous now and then and have at least one faith related meltdown each year), I am praying as this does leave three concerns.

I am sorry about this, it has been difficult - especially Sunday which was spent in meltdown (a certain creature does get perverse pleasure in wrecking peace of mind). However, God has blessed me with a period of calm, started the healing process with a couple of suggestions and reminded me that I am at the parish I am meant to be and that part of my service is to support the Church and my parish priest. He also reminded me that I can be stubborn and obstinate to the extreme, which can be a blessing sometimes but isn’t most of the time.
I wish you well and I pray that you may find peace in the liturgical circumstances in which you are living your faith.

I dare say that most of my brother priests who have had the care of souls, as have I, encounter members of our flock that fall at extremes of the liturgical spectrum. It is a challenge for the person and for the priest, too.

Personally, whether I say Mass in Latin or French or Italian or Spanish or English or one of my other languages, it is not particularly remarkable to me…one is as familiar as the other. But, if one who is attending is not conversant in the language of the Mass, obviously the opportunity for a full, conscious and active participation is significantly diminished.

I am sorry for the challenge you confronted and I hope you find a good solution.
 
Are you really going to let a little Latin mixed into the Mass destroy your faith and drive you from your parish?

Last week was Corpus Christi. What you heard was probably the Lauda Sion Sequence - a very ancient and important traditional hymn of the Church. It was written by St. Thomas Aquinas in about 1254. There are only 4 such sequences still used in the Mass so with just a tid-bit of investigation you will know what they are, and can easily find translations from Latin online so that you will at a minimum get the gist of what is being said.

For virtually all of Church history until 1960s the Mass in the West was in Latin even though Latin was not the native tongue of most Christians. The Church felt it was important to maintain a single language for the Mass throughout Christendom so that uniformity could be preserved. Vatican II permitted the use of the vernacular but also provided that Latin should still be used prominently in the Mass.

Many people greatly enjoy it when a few parts of the Mass are in Latin or Greek. In my parish, the Kyrie (i.e., "Lord Have Mercy…) is in Greek and the Agnus Dei (i.e., “Lamb of God…”) is in Latin during the Advent, Christmas and Easter seasons. I love that. It helps me feel a deep connection with all my Catholic ancestors who said the Kyrie and the Agnus Dei at Mass down through the ages.

Why not investigate and learn a little Latin so that you CAN understand and participate? That wouldn’t be so hard. You can simply do a Google search for any part of the Mass that is in Latin (or Greek for the Kyrie) and pull up a side-by-side translation.

The Precepts of the Church set forth the bare minimum requirements for Catholics:
  1. Attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation (and rest from servile labor).
  2. Confess your sins at least once a year.
  3. Receive the Eucharist at least once during the Easter season.
  4. Observe the days of fast and abstinence established by the Church.
  5. Provide for the needs of the Church.
 
I am just shocked that a adult could be a cradle catholic and not know at least a little latin of the ordinary form and some of the simple chants. Though I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised.

I attended a very “charismatic” parish growing up (folk and pop music played on guitars and drums, people “speaking in tongues” and being “slain in the spirit”) though very devote. And even with all that I still somehow learned the Agnus Dei simple chant, as well as Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hosita. We would say/sing the Kyrie (in Greek) during lent and other uses of Latin, especially during high holy days (like Corpus Christi, Christ the King, Christmas, Good Friday, Easter (especially the vigil), Pentecost, etc).

Everyone my age (~30) knows a little Latin from popular movies like Sister Act (and the song Hail Holy Queen), Ever After and wedding scene where the priest starts the Mass “In Nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti,” which is obviously the sign of the cross. I probably fared better than most as I sang in a choir at a public school, which takes it music very seriously. Thus, we sang in many languages including Latin, and even sang a Mass by Haydn. As a teen I enjoyed popular versions of Ave Maria and Panis Angelicus.
 
Just to add a little more context for the two posts after my last post. I didn’t learn the faith from my parents, joined an Evangelical church at 10 and left at 17. 20+ years and slide into the back pew of a Catholic church one day. The priest was ill and I simply did not know what to ask, so I stayed quiet. I am learning (slowly) and there is a lot to learn (at the moment I have started an in-depth study of the Gospel of John, reading about the Holy Trinity and as 3 free booklets arrived about the Year of Mercy that is a sign that I need to study them thoroughly. Plus, I have some parish work that needs a lot of prayer and study.

My faith is weak but that is the very reason why I need the Church and God could not make it any clearer to me, that He wants me where I am. I can attend a 6 O’Clock mass elsewhere to receive and be at mass on Sunday - it pains me to think that no one will be there to meet and greet, which is very important. I just pray that all the other EMHC;s are at mass on Sunday. This is just something I need to work through and it will all come out right in the end - I know that God will make sure of that.
 
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