Minimum wage

  • Thread starter Thread starter JamesATyler
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have my doubts about most of the standard of living stuff. Very few places give out cash aid. So if people are getting aid, they’re getting it in food or housing assistance primarily. Food assistance is the most common, and that of necessity can only contribute so much. I’m on the max amount in a liberal state and I’m getting about $5 a day to eat. That’s hardly going to put someone into luxury.
Compared to most of the world, $5 a day is wealthy. Most of the poor in this country own a car, they have a tv, central air and heat, clothes, etc. It might not be luxury to you, but it is to most of the world.

Separate government welfare programs for specific things, like food or housing, are stupid. Welfare should be a cash only program and let the person receiving the welfare decide what they want to spend it on.
I actually do think, as a separate issue, that our welfare system needs a good overhaul. If nothing else I think we’ve gotten so focused on cheaters that we make it hard for people to improve themselves without getting kicked out of the system, while many of our anti-cheater regulations actually encourage people to remain dependent.
Of course our welfare system needs an overhaul but it will never happen. As soon as someone talks about reforming welfare they are labeled as a greedy person who hates poor people and wants them to die in the streets.

Entitlement reform needs to happen soon also. Entitlements are going to grow very quickly here soon. They are going to be our downfall. But that will never happen either because as soon as someone talks about reforming entitlements they are labeled as a greedy person who hates old people, retirees, and workers and wants them to die in the streets.
The other problem is that in general we’ve got a society that has separate tracks of jobs. Most minimum wage jobs are dead ends, or at least dead ends for the few people who don’t get to management (which is of necessity going to be a minority). Jobs that aren’t minimum wage almost all require some sort of costly education.
What do you mean by a “dead end” job? Again, education is costly because of government, plain and simple. The same people who want to raise the minimum wage. Please, watch Good Intentions by Walter Williams.
What most of us are concerned about is creating a two-track society - something I think we’re already starting to suffer from. Where there’s one track for people who have good families and money to back them and all that, and another track for those who don’t. And the people in the latter category generally don’t get the resources to move up into the former. But since all the unskilled jobs they can get to pay similar wages, and those wages aren’t enough to get an opportunity elsewhere, they end up stuck.
That is all speculation. Do you have any proof that we are a “two-track” society where only the wealthy have opportunity and the poor are screwed?

If anything, government policy is responsible for the gap between the rich and the poor. It is responsible for the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. And people want the government to get more involved? Please.
 
Compared to most of the world, $5 a day is wealthy. Most of the poor in this country own a car, they have a tv, central air and heat, clothes, etc. It might not be luxury to you, but it is to most of the world.

Separate government welfare programs for specific things, like food or housing, are stupid. Welfare should be a cash only program and let the person receiving the welfare decide what they want to spend it on.

Of course our welfare system needs an overhaul but it will never happen. As soon as someone talks about reforming welfare they are labeled as a greedy person who hates poor people and wants them to die in the streets.

Entitlement reform needs to happen soon also. Entitlements are going to grow very quickly here soon. They are going to be our downfall. But that will never happen either because as soon as someone talks about reforming entitlements they are labeled as a greedy person who hates old people, retirees, and workers and wants them to die in the streets.
The trouble is when most people say “reform” they mean “let’s kick a bunch of people off welfare.” And I don’t think that’s the solution. From my own experiences, the system is not terribly good at helping out people who would like to be off welfare. People like me who could probably have been kept working with more timely intervention are instead left to wait until things are truly desperate and we’re deep in debt before help is available. Those who would like to seek an education to get a better job, or to get a job that’s compatible with a disability or other issue, aren’t given any help or support. In fact in many states they may be disqualified for doing so. Asset limits can be very low, lower than what someone might need to purchase a vehicle (in many regions a necessity for a job) or to move to somewhere that has more available work. For the very poor, homeless shelters may have limited hours or quickly running out space that disadvantages those with shiftwork or jobs that keep them into the evening.

Basically, I think we need to not focus so much on the idea of people cheating the system. What I’d like to see is thoughts about how people end up on welfare and what the best way to get them off is, and focus on that. So in my case, a more timely aid with medical care could very easily have kept me from being unemployed at all - but the insurance system I had left me with crippling copays and avoiding treatment I couldn’t afford and often couldn’t effectively get to. The lack of treatment meant worse health until I had to quit - which was when I actually started qualifying for aid. I have to watch that I don’t make too much so I end up off medicaid still.
What do you mean by a “dead end” job? Again, education is costly because of government, plain and simple. The same people who want to raise the minimum wage. Please, watch Good Intentions by Walter Williams.
That is all speculation. Do you have any proof that we are a “two-track” society where only the wealthy have opportunity and the poor are screwed?
If anything, government policy is responsible for the gap between the rich and the poor. It is responsible for the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. And people want the government to get more involved? Please.
A dead end job is a job which has little room for advancement and doesn’t build up desirable skills. Most retail type jobs are of this sort - there’s no major skills learned and only a small minority can make it up to a management position. And even then often managers above low levels are hired from outside the company rather than from skills developed while working.

And I have some evidence in that we tend to see generational poverty. The children of the poor are more likely to be poor, to not get an education and to spend more time working minimum-wage jobs. There’s a concern that loss of a minimum wage would increase those problems because jobs would pay minimally for people to survive. If there’s lots of unskilled labor and you can get someone to work for just enough to survive, why not do so? And if everyone who uses unskilled labor pays that little, well, people will still take those jobs.

It’s kind of like a problem you see with disasters now. Sudden demand means merchants can jack up prices for necessities. Many will even though it means a lot of people can’t afford to buy food and frequently those with money will buy and hoard more than they need.

As far as education, honestly before the government got involved a college education was only for the wealthy few. Now many jobs are demanding it - and the increased specialization of society and loss of the apprenticeship system means it’s necessary. So I doubt cutting the government out will lower prices to the point where the vast majority of people who need a degree to get a better paying job can get one.

(and I don’t really have good enough stuff around here to watch things easily)
 
The trouble is when most people say “reform” they mean “let’s kick a bunch of people off welfare.” And I don’t think that’s the solution. From my own experiences, the system is not terribly good at helping out people who would like to be off welfare. People like me who could probably have been kept working with more timely intervention are instead left to wait until things are truly desperate and we’re deep in debt before help is available. Those who would like to seek an education to get a better job, or to get a job that’s compatible with a disability or other issue, aren’t given any help or support. In fact in many states they may be disqualified for doing so. Asset limits can be very low, lower than what someone might need to purchase a vehicle (in many regions a necessity for a job) or to move to somewhere that has more available work. For the very poor, homeless shelters may have limited hours or quickly running out space that disadvantages those with shiftwork or jobs that keep them into the evening.

Basically, I think we need to not focus so much on the idea of people cheating the system. What I’d like to see is thoughts about how people end up on welfare and what the best way to get them off is, and focus on that. So in my case, a more timely aid with medical care could very easily have kept me from being unemployed at all - but the insurance system I had left me with crippling copays and avoiding treatment I couldn’t afford and often couldn’t effectively get to. The lack of treatment meant worse health until I had to quit - which was when I actually started qualifying for aid. I have to watch that I don’t make too much so I end up off medicaid still.

A dead end job is a job which has little room for advancement and doesn’t build up desirable skills. Most retail type jobs are of this sort - there’s no major skills learned and only a small minority can make it up to a management position. And even then often managers above low levels are hired from outside the company rather than from skills developed while working.

And I have some evidence in that we tend to see generational poverty. The children of the poor are more likely to be poor, to not get an education and to spend more time working minimum-wage jobs. There’s a concern that loss of a minimum wage would increase those problems because jobs would pay minimally for people to survive. If there’s lots of unskilled labor and you can get someone to work for just enough to survive, why not do so? And if everyone who uses unskilled labor pays that little, well, people will still take those jobs.

It’s kind of like a problem you see with disasters now. Sudden demand means merchants can jack up prices for necessities. Many will even though it means a lot of people can’t afford to buy food and frequently those with money will buy and hoard more than they need.

As far as education, honestly before the government got involved a college education was only for the wealthy few. Now many jobs are demanding it - and the increased specialization of society and loss of the apprenticeship system means it’s necessary. So I doubt cutting the government out will lower prices to the point where the vast majority of people who need a degree to get a better paying job can get one.

(and I don’t really have good enough stuff around here to watch things easily)
Starting in the 80’s with Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, there’s been an ongoing effort to make public assistance extremely hard to get, and to demonize those who use public assistance as “welfare queens” and “lazy”.

Of course, the same people that decry those in need forget their scorn for those on the public dole when it comes time to retire-seniors now receive much, much more than they put in through social security taxes.
 
Both sides have some valid criticisms, but are politically unwilling to discuss them, let along come to an agreement that involves compromise or even admitting that the other side has valid points. That’s the sad state of our polarized society, with media and entrenched career politicians feeding the divide through demagoguery.

Something not yet mentioned as a problem is the consumer credit system. Once I really started seriously considering Dave Ramsey’s philosophy, I started to look into credit in this country.

I have since come to the conclusion that mass consumer credit has been primary cause of poverty, destruction of wealth, wealth disparity, and generational poverty.

It’s usury, predatory lending. High interest rates, “easy credit,” high fees and penalties, advertising and specials all designed to get people to live beyond their means and buy on credit, even cash out their equity and avoid saving because of a false sense of security. All these things have are destroying the middle class and have have oppressed the lower class, keeping them enslaved to debt.

If our educational system in this country were actually worth more than your daily visits to the toilet, it would be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. And government is what screwed up the educational system. Well, government, teacher’s unions, and Leftist academia. We will always be in a desperate fight against their destructive forces until we can break the stranglehold these three elements have on the educational system.

Yes, almost all forms of welfare (including unemployment, SS, and medicare/medicaid) have perverse incentives that keep people dependent and create more dependency. Yes, they need to focus more on lifting people out of poverty.

I would rather see the “strings attached” to welfare include things that will actually help people become less dependent, and funding to help them achieve that. Things like financial counseling and training, and apprenticeships and vocational training–NOT college education, which is practically worthless in the job market, as most graduates find out painfully when seeking a job immediately after graduation, except as being a replacement for the GED showing that you have a minimal competence level, since education has degraded so much that businesses cannot expect high school graduates to be sufficiently-literate and educated to function in the world.

In the realm of health care, government may have a role in providing guaranteed coverage for children (and possibly students), and catastrophic coverage (high-deductible), and then making health savings easier. These things can help free young families and protect people from bankruptcy due to catastrophic events, without breaking the public bank or the private market.

But jobs are indeed a complex issue that has many factors. It really has to focus on job creators even more than on workers. Small businesses need to be freed of government regulatory and tax burdens to a much greater degree. Regulation is > $2.4 TRILLION annual drag on the small business market. That’s a TON of jobs destroyed. Incentives for training programs could more directly help workers.

And leaving the minimum wage where it is forever (since rolling back is near impossible), or expanding the “trainee wage” exception.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top