Minimum Wage

[GEddie]

If by labor surplus is meant more workers than there are jobs, this does not only occur in recession.

In this economy, it is absent only in wartime.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[lmelahn]

If by labor surplus is meant more workers than there are jobs, this does not only occur in recession.

In this economy, it is absent only in wartime.

ICXC NIKA.

There are always technically more workers than jobs. In all of recorded history, the unemployment rate has never fallen below about 2.5% or so.

The “ideal” unemployment rate (what is commonly called “full employment”) is debated by economists, but it is somewhat higher, around 4 or 5%.

But by “recession” I just meant any time that the economy is unhealthy and puts pressure on businesses. At such times, a minimum wage, it seems to me, would be even more likely to cause harm.

(In other words, if you must impose a minimum wage—and I don’t recommend it—do so only when the economy is very healthy.)

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There are always technically more workers than jobs. In all of recorded history, the unemployment rate has never fallen below about 2.5% or so.

The “ideal” unemployment rate (what is commonly called “full employment”) is debated by economists, but it is somewhat higher, around 4 or 5%.

Just because economists define 4 or 5% as full employment, that does not mean it is more desirable than 0% for those people who happen to fall in the 4 or 5 % category. It just means that they believe that this is the lowest that is practically achieveable.

 

[Nelka]

Wow!

$15 is £9.31, I would love to earn that!

Our minimum wage is £6.50 which is $10.48 in your money.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Wow!

$15 is £9.31, I would love to earn that!

Our minimum wage is £6.50 which is $10.48 in your money.

Come to America! Stay as long as you like.

Everyone else does.

 

[Buckeyeboy]

Come to America! Stay as long as you like.

Everyone else does.

There should be a minimum wage, that is just one of many employment laws to protect workers.

Another example, should an employer be able by law to FIRE an employee for ANY reason?

 

[Nelka]

Come to America! Stay as long as you like.

Everyone else does.

Thanks mate.

I think would kill me and I would miss the rain.

There should be a minimum wage, that is just one of many employment laws to protect workers.

Another example, should an employer be able by law to FIRE an employee for ANY reason?

No.

:nope:

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Wow!

$15 is £9.31, I would love to earn that!

Our minimum wage is £6.50 which is $10.48 in your money.

Likewise, our minimum wage earners would be better off with $10.48/hr. Originally the discussion was about raising the minimum wage to $10.10/hr. Then Fast food workers mentioned $15.00/hr for their workers. There doesn’t seem to be a sound reason not to raise the wage. It’s always been raised , and our economy has always grown.

It’s really just a matter of negotiating the sum at this point.

ATB

 

[GratefulFred]

First a bit if history of minimum wage:

  Min Wage	Increase	Total Inc

Oct-38 $0.25
Feb-68 $1.60 640%
Jul-08 $6.55 409% 2620%

For those who say min wage should not be raised, are you saying it is morally right to have stopped at a $1.60 in 1968? The only way I see that being right is IF the Cost of Living was also held to 1968 levels.

Second, an increase in min wage usually requires an increase in wages for positions above min wage. Otherwise, those higher paying positions are devalued.

Third, Randy Carson is correct in that there is a limit as to what a business owner can charge his/her customers. Yes, some businesses can pass along the extra cost, but many can not. Some will go out of business and employees become unemployed.

Fourth, One does not need to be an economist to understand the natural tendency to be efficient. If one can get about $25,000 a year from a package of government supports while not working, why would one work for $10 an hour - less than $21,000 a year? And if one did earn $15 an hour - about $31,000 a year and give up that $25K support, one sees that he or she is actually working for about $6,000 a year. Is that enough incentive to seek min swage jobs? Yes, many do have a sense of Honor and would rather work than be carried, but many look to government and avoid work.

Finally, but not the total points to be considered, is a discussion on what we should be doing to increase one’s skills so he or she can command a higher paying job? Being in min wage positions should be temporary. We have to provide programs to improve skills and workers have to have enough personal drive to use those programs wisely. There are some but not enough.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There should be a minimum wage, that is just one of many employment laws to protect workers.

Another example, should an employer be able by law to FIRE an employee for ANY reason?

We can in North Carolina. It’s one of many “right to work” states.

Any employee, any time for any reason - or no reason at all. That’s the law.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

We can in North Carolina. It’s one of many “right to work” states.

Any employee, any time for any reason - or no reason at all. That’s the law.

Right to work laws are very anti worker. Hopefully they will all be over turned at some point.

ATB

 

[Randy_Carson]

Right to work laws are very anti worker. Hopefully they will all be over turned at some point.

ATB

You’re from Michigan, eh? Are you a member of a union?

 

[Mickey_Finn]

You’re from Michigan, eh? Are you a member of a union?

I’m a Union man yes.

 

[Mike_Dye]

It seems to me that $15.00 an hour for an entry-level job is a bit high. There is no reason whatsoever that a really good, dependable, hard worker shouldn’t be able to write their own ticket after they learned basic job skills though.

 

[sallybutler]

It seems to me that $15.00 an hour for an entry-level job is a bit high. There is no reason whatsoever that a really good, dependable, hard worker shouldn’t be able to write their own ticket after they learned basic job skills though.

Some of the requirements for ‘entry-level’ jobs that only pay minimum wage or slightly above are not the requirements for an entry-level job. Does a receptionist really need a four-year degree? Should a minimum wage job have experience requirements? Should a minimum wage job require that you provide the tools necessary to complete the job?

If a minimum wage job does not require the employee provide their own uniforms, tools (up to and including cars for delivering the employers products) and ability to use said tools, as much education as a nurse, engineer, or teacher, or require prior experience, then I agree with you. However, too many employers want to pay minimum wage to people they only have to provide minimal company specific procedures to. They do not want to train and promote employees within their company, preferring to either deal with high turnover or poor workmanship. They want to use both of these results as an excuse for continuing the low salary model rather than exploring what might happen to loyalty and workmanship if they improved salaries or tried a profit sharing model.

Please note I said too many, not all.

There are many solutions to a minimum wage issue. But as long as shareholders are more important than customers and employees, the enforced minimum wage most likely will not go away.

As I wrote the previous paragraph, I was reminded of a philosophy I developed when my children were taking piano lessons. A sense of discipline is usually learned first from external forces (from one’s parents or teachers or drill sergeants) rather than internal force. Perhaps a sense of justice is learned the same way.

 

[lmelahn]

First a bit if history of minimum wage:

  Min Wage	Increase	Total Inc

Oct-38 $0.25
Feb-68 $1.60 640%
Jul-08 $6.55 409% 2620%

For those who say min wage should not be raised, are you saying it is morally right to have stopped at a $1.60 in 1968? The only way I see that being right is IF the Cost of Living was also held to 1968 levels.

I think you are assuming that companies would automatically pay their low-end workers the smallest wage possible. But that isn’t the case: the supply and demand of the labor market frequently sustains wages that are much higher than the minimum (even for the low-end jobs).

Or to put it in simpler terms, companies have to compete in order to attract workers. (That sometimes does not appear to be the case, for example in a poor economy, but it is true all the same.) In general, the market forces them to pay the highest wages they can afford, not the lowest.

Maintaining the 1968 minimum wage would almost certainly not have had any negative impact on the economy, because by now the effective minimum wage would be much, much higher than $1.60.

The main point is this: government-mandated minimum wages are only written on paper. They do nothing to increase the real wealth of workers. Instead, they introduce a disturbance in the labor market that results in unemployment and higher prices in the short term. Over the long term, minimum wages have practically no effect, because wages and prices both naturally rise to compensate.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

I think you are assuming that companies would automatically pay their low-end workers the smallest wage possible. But that isn’t the case: the supply and demand of the labor market frequently sustains wages that are much higher than the minimum (even for the low-end jobs).

Or to put it in simpler terms, companies have to compete in order to attract workers. (That sometimes does not appear to be the case, for example in a poor economy, but it is true all the same.) In general, the market forces them to pay the highest wages they can afford, not the lowest.

Maintaining the 1968 minimum wage would almost certainly not have had any negative impact on the economy, because by now the effective minimum wage would be much, much higher than $1.60.

The main point is this: government-mandated minimum wages are only written on paper. They do nothing to increase the real wealth of workers. Instead, they introduce a disturbance in the labor market that results in unemployment and higher prices in the short term. Over the long term, minimum wages have practically no effect, because wages and prices both naturally rise to compensate.

Interesting point of view to be sure. It doesn’t really reflect todays reality though. Like discussing our faith, you can’t just pick out one little slice and base your decisions on that.

As has been sited previously, employers have a variety of tools available to the to keep wages low. They have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can’t not be trusted to look after their employees or even something as basic as the environment they share with them. So, regulations are in place to ensure correct behavior. Minimum wage requirements are just another of those regulations.

We know from our collective wage history that having a minimum wage, and raising it periodically does not harm the workers, the employers, or the economy in any meaningful way. Wages have always gone up, and our economy has always grown. Those are the facts.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It has seemed to me that raising the minimum wage is like pushing on a string. The effort is made, and it seems like it would do something, but there’s no favorable result at the end.

It further seems to me the real answer to poor wages (and high unemployment) is “demand pull”. If employers need workers and if the economy justifies it, they’ll pay more to get the workers.

Unfortunately, we now have a government that does everything in its power to discourage employment.

 

[NoMondays]

Does anyone know if Seattle/Washington in general has raised the minimum wage everywhere?

 

[Randy_Carson]

When Ray Kroc met the MacDonald brothers, do you really think he envisioned an army of employees all trying to support their families making burgers, fries and shakes?

Or was McDonald’s originally set up to be run largely by high school kids working after school?

Here is the problem as I see it:

In times long past, most jobs in this country were agricultural. Everyone in the family tended to work on the farm to raise what they needed for themselves and to take the rest to market.

Then came the depression and the war, and suddenly, many jobs were available in factories. After the war, soldiers coming home from overseas migrated to those high-paying factories which were booming as a result of all the pent-up demand created by the long years of poverty and rationing.

Later, jobs started going overseas as US manufacturers discovered the benefits of cheap labor in other countries.

So, American workers are no longer needed on the farms (which are now largely mechanized) and they are no longer needed in the factories which are mostly shut down.

So, where does the blue-collar worker find employment? In the retail and service sectors where they are competing with flood of cheap labor coming across our border in record numbers.

The nation that once made steel and built skyscrapers now sells real estate and operates mobile dog grooming services.

Yes, we have the technology and bio-tech fields, but most of those jobs are going to foreigners who are willing to earn the education required for success.

Meanwhile, the not-so-great grandsons of America’s Greatest Generation just want to play video games.