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HailMary
Guest
~ 1 Kings 2:20
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NotWorthy
Guest
Duh!!! I can’t believe I missed that!:ehh:. I was so busy trying to swim in the deep water, I completely forgot the shallow.NotWorthy, that is so good! Excellent summary!!!
I would add that this is also a type of how the Blessed Virgin Mary intercedes for us with her Son as queen of Heaven when we pray to her.
Thanks for pointing this out!!!
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TOME
Guest
As I re-read the passage from John’s gospel a thought keeps coming to my mind. Perhaps we are looking at the wrong person when it comes to obediance. Instead of focusing on Jesus’ obedience to his mother our attention should be on our Blessed Mother’s obedience to the will of the Father.
In the “Canticle of Mary” our Blessed Mother proclaims her soul, “Proclaims the greatness of the Lord”. Her life reflect’s the will of God not her own. But later, at the presentation Simeon tells Mary that she will be pierce. The trials she had already gone through from the announcement of the angel Gabriel through the visitation, the birth of Jesus and then Simeon’s prophecy all point that doing God’s will means sacrifice but Mary was was always obedient to God’s will through all these trials.
Isn’t one of the greatest sufferings a loving mother endures is to give up her child? Yet, Mary, as we read in the passage of Luke and the “Finding at the Temple”, realized that this was what she must do in obedience to the Father’s will. I doubt that she fully realized what this giving up entailed the rejection she would experience yet she was always obedient to God’s will.
And at the wedding feast she would experience in a very real way the fact that in obedience to the Father’s will she would have to give up her son and in a profound way even experience a kind of rejection from him. John uses the term “Women” when Jesus addresses his mother. It is at Cana that we first read Jesus calling his mother women instead of mother and in the rest of John’s gospel women is the only term Jesus uses when addressing his mother.
Some, from what I have read(not hear of coarse), hold that this is a rejection of the role of Mary as mother and therefore is a reason to reject Mary’s role in the Church. I think, however, this actually is a lesson from Jesus of Mary’s true role, namely, while her maternity is important what is more important is her obedience to God’s will in regards to Christ’s mission of redemption to mankind void of its original union with God and therefore void of true joy.
I think this is brought out through several important symbols presented in this narrative. First is the fact that they were at a wedding feast. Marriage, as intended by God, is not only the expression of the love of two people but from this love to produce children - the continuation of man, mankinds future.
But this brings in the second important symbol: Wine. In the Old Testament, wine was always a symbol of joy and a new beginning (one example was Noah planting a vineyard after the flood). But here we find at a feast celebrating man’s future the wine brought by man is running out - the joy of man, through his own efforts is running out, is empty.
John never tells us how Mary came to know the wine was running out but she does and brings this situation to her son. When I reflect on his answer it seems that he finally tells his mother what she already knew in her heart. He calls her women, not mother, she would have to give him up but more important he would bring true joy to the world but not as the world expected. We do find in Jesus’ words the real concern, that we find in the other gospels
, namely, that the world would misunderstand what he must do to bring this joy, his hour had not yet come.
And what happens next, I think, does not show Jesus’ obedience to Mary, but Mary’s obedience to the Father. She tells the servants simply to do what ever he tells you. Here, Mary is truely reflecting God’s glory and will because as Jesus will continue to teach and proclaim and show, through out the rest of the gospel that He and the Father are one.
And the result is symbolically as the servants do what Christ tells them, that is when they do the will of the Father, there is unexpected joy beyond measure.
So there is no contradiction, Christ and our Blessed Mother are responding to the will of the Father.
In the “Canticle of Mary” our Blessed Mother proclaims her soul, “Proclaims the greatness of the Lord”. Her life reflect’s the will of God not her own. But later, at the presentation Simeon tells Mary that she will be pierce. The trials she had already gone through from the announcement of the angel Gabriel through the visitation, the birth of Jesus and then Simeon’s prophecy all point that doing God’s will means sacrifice but Mary was was always obedient to God’s will through all these trials.
Isn’t one of the greatest sufferings a loving mother endures is to give up her child? Yet, Mary, as we read in the passage of Luke and the “Finding at the Temple”, realized that this was what she must do in obedience to the Father’s will. I doubt that she fully realized what this giving up entailed the rejection she would experience yet she was always obedient to God’s will.
And at the wedding feast she would experience in a very real way the fact that in obedience to the Father’s will she would have to give up her son and in a profound way even experience a kind of rejection from him. John uses the term “Women” when Jesus addresses his mother. It is at Cana that we first read Jesus calling his mother women instead of mother and in the rest of John’s gospel women is the only term Jesus uses when addressing his mother.
Some, from what I have read(not hear of coarse), hold that this is a rejection of the role of Mary as mother and therefore is a reason to reject Mary’s role in the Church. I think, however, this actually is a lesson from Jesus of Mary’s true role, namely, while her maternity is important what is more important is her obedience to God’s will in regards to Christ’s mission of redemption to mankind void of its original union with God and therefore void of true joy.
I think this is brought out through several important symbols presented in this narrative. First is the fact that they were at a wedding feast. Marriage, as intended by God, is not only the expression of the love of two people but from this love to produce children - the continuation of man, mankinds future.
But this brings in the second important symbol: Wine. In the Old Testament, wine was always a symbol of joy and a new beginning (one example was Noah planting a vineyard after the flood). But here we find at a feast celebrating man’s future the wine brought by man is running out - the joy of man, through his own efforts is running out, is empty.
John never tells us how Mary came to know the wine was running out but she does and brings this situation to her son. When I reflect on his answer it seems that he finally tells his mother what she already knew in her heart. He calls her women, not mother, she would have to give him up but more important he would bring true joy to the world but not as the world expected. We do find in Jesus’ words the real concern, that we find in the other gospels
, namely, that the world would misunderstand what he must do to bring this joy, his hour had not yet come.
And what happens next, I think, does not show Jesus’ obedience to Mary, but Mary’s obedience to the Father. She tells the servants simply to do what ever he tells you. Here, Mary is truely reflecting God’s glory and will because as Jesus will continue to teach and proclaim and show, through out the rest of the gospel that He and the Father are one.
And the result is symbolically as the servants do what Christ tells them, that is when they do the will of the Father, there is unexpected joy beyond measure.
So there is no contradiction, Christ and our Blessed Mother are responding to the will of the Father.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Tome, good points!!!
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
There are some Christians who do not believe this literally to have happened.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
change water into wine
I however respect your religion, you are free to believe anything you like with reasoning, rationality and being research oriented, no compulsion.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
M
mchium
Guest
:twocents: I think (and it’s my thought, I don’t speak for the Church here) it’s just a wonderful interplay between Jesus and His Mother - for the benefit of us all…then and now and in the future.
I think we mess up the intention of God in His Word when we get too picky…we should rather understand any instance in scripture in the light of the whole scripture and of the Faith.
I see both Jesus and Mary as ‘free’ operators here…and a loving, kind and faithful and compassionate tableau on both sides. Jesus is stating a fact (His hour has not yet come, even if it does mean His ministry, as of her request being made). He simply states that. Mary, for her part, is, as always, completely docile to His will, whatever it might be - that’s why she doesn’t even ask Him or say anything to Him…she says to the servants what she says to us “do whatever He tells you”. I think she was ready for whatever He would do…in effect, implying that if He chose not to do anything, that was ok with her.
In light of THAT kind of faith and submission, in light of 'thy will be done", we find that Jesus always acts!
just my :twocents:
I think we mess up the intention of God in His Word when we get too picky…we should rather understand any instance in scripture in the light of the whole scripture and of the Faith.
I see both Jesus and Mary as ‘free’ operators here…and a loving, kind and faithful and compassionate tableau on both sides. Jesus is stating a fact (His hour has not yet come, even if it does mean His ministry, as of her request being made). He simply states that. Mary, for her part, is, as always, completely docile to His will, whatever it might be - that’s why she doesn’t even ask Him or say anything to Him…she says to the servants what she says to us “do whatever He tells you”. I think she was ready for whatever He would do…in effect, implying that if He chose not to do anything, that was ok with her.
In light of THAT kind of faith and submission, in light of 'thy will be done", we find that Jesus always acts!
just my :twocents:
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rpp
Guest
At my weekly Rosary Group yesterday evening, and interesting thought occurred to many of us there.
We were focusing on the Fifth Joyful Mystery, the Finding of Jesus at the Temple. If you recall, Jesus, about 12 years old, had become separated from His mother and foster Father, Mary and Joseph. Now you can imagine that St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary were rather worried, perhaps more than other parents in their position. Not only was Jesus their only Child, whom they loved, they also knew that they had been chosen by God to raise and safeguard the Creator of the Universe. And now they had lost Him. So there was, I am sure, some understandable anxiety above and beyond what would be normal.
When they found Jesus in the Temple after three days of searching, Jesus responded to His mother and saying “Did you not know I would be about My Father’s business?”
Jesus, was certainly a “gifted” 12-year old, though fully divine, His human nature was not yet fully mature. Perhaps this sinless, yet immature boy, in His enthusiasm, thought it was time to begin preaching. The Blessed Virgin Mary, who was a mature human, and more than that, was also untouched by the stain of Original Sin, knew it was not time for Jesus to begin His Earthly ministry. So she stopped him.
Now I do not mean to imply that Jesus made a mistake, or was disobedient. I think there are several explanations for His motives that do not involve mistake, but rather simple boyish immaturity. Recall that Jesus is 100% Divine and 100% human in a way which is mysterious to us.
With that in mind, think back to the words of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the Wedding of Cana. What did she say, basically, “Help them.” Jesus’ responded “It is not yet my hour.” And the Blessed Virgin Mary then turned to the attendants and said, “Do what He tells you to do.”
So in a way, perhaps the Blessed Virgin Mary knew, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, when to Jesus’ Earthly ministry was to begin. She stopped a premature beginning then, 18 years later, prompted Him to begin when the time was finally right.
Or maybe I am all wet and this is just an silly and groundless speculation.
We were focusing on the Fifth Joyful Mystery, the Finding of Jesus at the Temple. If you recall, Jesus, about 12 years old, had become separated from His mother and foster Father, Mary and Joseph. Now you can imagine that St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary were rather worried, perhaps more than other parents in their position. Not only was Jesus their only Child, whom they loved, they also knew that they had been chosen by God to raise and safeguard the Creator of the Universe. And now they had lost Him. So there was, I am sure, some understandable anxiety above and beyond what would be normal.
When they found Jesus in the Temple after three days of searching, Jesus responded to His mother and saying “Did you not know I would be about My Father’s business?”
Jesus, was certainly a “gifted” 12-year old, though fully divine, His human nature was not yet fully mature. Perhaps this sinless, yet immature boy, in His enthusiasm, thought it was time to begin preaching. The Blessed Virgin Mary, who was a mature human, and more than that, was also untouched by the stain of Original Sin, knew it was not time for Jesus to begin His Earthly ministry. So she stopped him.
Now I do not mean to imply that Jesus made a mistake, or was disobedient. I think there are several explanations for His motives that do not involve mistake, but rather simple boyish immaturity. Recall that Jesus is 100% Divine and 100% human in a way which is mysterious to us.
With that in mind, think back to the words of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the Wedding of Cana. What did she say, basically, “Help them.” Jesus’ responded “It is not yet my hour.” And the Blessed Virgin Mary then turned to the attendants and said, “Do what He tells you to do.”
So in a way, perhaps the Blessed Virgin Mary knew, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, when to Jesus’ Earthly ministry was to begin. She stopped a premature beginning then, 18 years later, prompted Him to begin when the time was finally right.
Or maybe I am all wet and this is just an silly and groundless speculation.
R
RichP
Guest
And do not forget that we are to be like the servants. “Do whatever he tells you.” What did the servants do? Jesus told them to fill the jars. The servants filled them to the brim, not half way, not 3/4 full but to the brim.
We are call to do whatever Jesus tells us to do, not with half our heart but totally, 100% to the brim.
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tm30
Guest
There are many facets worthy of exploring with regard to the Wedding at Cana:
- The Wine. Symbolic of the blood Jesus would shed for mankind - the “new wine” that should not be poured into “old casks”.
- The Water. Symbolic of Life. The transformation of water into wine demonstrates that for Christ, life and death are intertwined - that His sole mission on earth is to die.
- “My hour has not yet come”. What hour? The hour of salvation. The hour of Golgotha. The intertwining of life and death - the fulfillment of Jesus’ mission - will be fully revealed at the cross, when water and wine (blood) pour forth from the side of Christ.
- “Do whatever He tells you.” Echoing the words of Moses’ sister, Miriam, Jesus is the fulfillment of Mosaic prophecy. The rock was struck in the desert, bringing forth saving water (alluding to Christ). The shepherd (Christ himself) would be struck in the desert, bringing forth saving blood. The temporal, saving water of Moses will become the eternal saving blood of Christ.
- Jesus performs the miracle in order to foreshadow what will happen when His hour comes. He is also honoring His mother, who by virtue of her sinless disposition, is prompted by the will of God to publicly make this request. Mary as the new Eve, once again reverses Genesis, deferring to Jesus’ will in humility instead of pridefully contradicting Him. Jesus is also demonstrating what He will later relate about the wedding guests not fasting while the groom is in their midst.
- Mary for her part is revealed as the great intercessor for our souls. Not merely because Jesus responds to her request, but in her very role at this wedding. The wedding obviously foreshadows the wedding feast that we are invited to attend in heaven. It’s our marriage to Christ. Mary, whose concern is for the wedding party and sparing their humiliation, works behind the scenes, perhaps without their knowledge, to secure the assistance of her Son in saving the event from disaster. Mary, in the same way, is working behind the scenes to assure that our wedding date with Christ goes as planned. Since the heavenly banquet is our ultimate purpose, Mary is our ultimate intercessor.
- “Woman”. With regard to “the hour”, the next time Jesus refers to his mother as “woman” comes at that very hour at Golgotha. The somewhat impersonal approach is not an act of disrespect. Jesus is declaring to her that His mission is commenced. That Mary is no longer just “Mary, mother of Jesus”. Her concern is no longer solely for Him (“what is that to me?”), but for His mission, which is the adoption and salvation of mankind. When Jesus next utters the word “Woman” to his mother, He gives the world to her in adoption as their true mother, first to John - who would reveal her encompassing motherhood to the world through his Gospel.
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