Miracle of the Holy Fire...is this for real?

[imasinner]

What do non-Orthodox people think about this Miracle of the Holy Fire? Atheists, how would you explain this scientifically? Is there such a fire on Earth that does not burn? Is this not evidence of the Divine? Has anybody experienced this miracle? I cant express how this discovery on the net has affected me but I would appreciate your views on this as a Jew, Muslim, Christian or atheist.

holyfire.org/eng/index.html

Where and when does the miracle occur?
The ceremony, which awes the souls of Christians, takes place in the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem. The date for Pascha is determined anew for every year. It must be a first Sunday after the spring equinox and Jewish Passover. Therefore, most of the time it differs from the date of Catholic and Protestant Easter, which is determined using different criteria. The Holy Fire is the most renowned miracle in the world of Eastern Orthodoxy. IIt has taken place at the same time, in the same manner, in the same place every single year for centuries. No other miracle is known to occur so regularly and so steadily over time. No other miracle is known to occur so regularly and so steadily over time. It happens in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the holiest place on earth[2], where Christ was crucified, entombed, and where He finally rose from the dead.

And to Catholics…how come the Church is not involved in the celebration of this miracle?

Peace to all

 

[dzheremi]

Ahhh…yes, to me, this is a real miracle. I am not Eastern Orthodox, but I definitely believe it, as I have read the testimonies of those who have witnessed it, both on the site that you’ve linked to and at other places. If I remember correctly that site claims that it appears only before the Orthodox, which would explain why those in union with Rome are not involved. I hope this does not exclude me from at least believing it…

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I am pretty sure that’s a very old, fake miracle.

 

[imasinner]

Ahhh…yes, to me, this is a real miracle. I am not Eastern Orthodox, but I definitely believe it, as I have read the testimonies of those who have witnessed it, both on the site that you’ve linked to and at other places. If I remember correctly that site claims that it appears only before the Orthodox, which would explain why those in union with Rome are not involved. I hope this does not exclude me from at least believing it…

Ive not seen it with my own eyes but I have no reason to disbelieve the photos on the site. There are video’s as well but I havent been able to view these yet. Im still in shock why this is not more widely known in Christianity in the West…or is it? And yes only before the Orthodox and its been happening for CENTURIES every year! I cannot understand why the Catholic Church would ignore such an amazing testament to Jesus’ diviinity. If it only appears before Orthodox this fact cannot be ignored.

Any Catholics out there in the know your comments would be gladly appreciated.

And Muslims if this be true would that not prove Jesus is more than who Mohammad claimed He is not just a mere prophet?

 

[imasinner]

I am pretty sure that’s a very old, fake miracle.

You got proof? Have you bothered to look at the link? It has videos you can access.

 

[linuxgeek71]

You got proof? Have you bothered to look at the link? It has videos you can access.

I’ve seen videos of people in trances play soccer with flaming balls. Not being burnt by fire is a trick many people have learned. I won’t say it is a fraud but it isn’t all that convincing either…

 

[Soutane]

I am a Catholic.I believe it.I accept it in faith.Just as I accept the Resurection in faith for example.The Orthodox are part of the True Faith as is the Catholic Church.They just happen to be in schism,although I’m sure their position is that we are.They have the True Presence and all 7 efficacsious Sacraments.

It is not required that I believe this but I choose to do so.To me it is one more proof that the Orthodox are the other lung of Christianity.Apologies to Pope John Paul the Great.

 

[imasinner]

I’ve seen videos of people in trances play soccer with flaming balls. Not being burnt by fire is a trick many people have learned. I won’t say it is a fraud but it isn’t all that convincing either…

I doubt that the Orthodox faithful who put up this site would deliberately publicise something which can be easily disproved. Are you saying this could be a case of the masses who attend the ceremony being in a trance? Is this your observation as a believer or non-believer in Jesus as divine? Just curious

 

[linuxgeek71]

I doubt that the Orthodox faithful who put up this site would deliberately publicise something which can be easily disproved.

Maybe. But knowing several atheists I assure you they would have no issue explaining this away to the satisfaction of many. This can be said of most any miracle though. There is always some explanation even if it relies on the improbable. Scientist are very creative people.

Are you saying this could be a case of the masses who attend the ceremony being in a trance?

I didn’t say that, but maybe. I only said you can see similar elsewhere. I don’t call it a miracle when it is done with flaming soccer balls so I don’t call it a miracle just because an Orthodox bishop does it.

Is this your observation as a believer or non-believer in Jesus as divine? Just curious

Believer, I’m Catholic.

 

[imasinner]

I am a Catholic.I believe it.I accept it in faith.Just as I accept the Resurection in faith for example.The Orthodox are part of the True Faith as is the Catholic Church.They just happen to be in schism,although I’m sure their position is that we are.They have the True Presence and all 7 efficacsious Sacraments.

It is not required that I believe this but I choose to do so.To me it is one more proof that the Orthodox are the other lung of Christianity.Apologies to Pope John Paul the Great.

Thank you Soultane! You have heard of this miracle before? Do you know if the Church has ever said something on this. I realise we are not required to believe this but why on earth would the Church ignore this unless the powers that be see it as evidence against Her as the true Church. I believe the Orthodox stance is that we are heretics and being blessed with this miracle EVERY YEAR on the day they celebrate it (Easter dates in Orthodox and Catholic are determined differently) seems logical thinking to me if I was Orthodox.

 

[Soutane]

Thank you Soultane! You have heard of this miracle before? Do you know if the Church has ever said something on this. I realise we are not required to believe this but why on earth would the Church ignore this unless the powers that be see it as evidence against Her as the true Church. I believe the Orthodox stance is that we are heretics and being blessed with this miracle EVERY YEAR on the day they celebrate it (Easter dates in Orthodox and Catholic are determined differently) seems logical thinking to me if I was Orthodox.

I don’t know what the Catholic Church’s position is on this or even if She does have a position,as it is an Orthodox miracle.It is further evidence that God views the Orthodox as part of the True Faith.Only within Catholicism and Orthodoxy are there thousands and thousands of documented and verified miracles.If we wish to unify Christianity it must first be with the Orthodox.

I have known of this miracle for years and I would no more accuse the Orthodox of faking it than I would accuse the Church of faking Fatima or the Miracle of the Sun.I’m sure that God would fry those fakers.And they know it.

 

[imasinner]

Maybe. But knowing several atheists I assure you they would have no issue explaining this away to the satisfaction of many. This can be said of most any miracle though. There is always some explanation even if it relies on the improbable. Scientist are very creative people.

Waiting eagerly for atheist opinion

I didn’t say that, but maybe.

Sorry didnt mean to imply that you did

I only said you can see similar elsewhere.

Can you recommend any links? I concede it could be posible under hypnosis to play with fire and not get burnt (not that Ive seen it) but this situation is a little more than that .

I don’t call it a miracle when it is done with flaming soccer balls so I don’t call it a miracle just because an Orthodox bishop does it.

Fair enough. What leans me towards belief is the place this miracle occurs.

Believer, I’m Catholic.

Thank you …as I am

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Pope Urban II is alleged to have said the following in AD 1095:

“Of holy Jerusalem, brethren, we dare not speak, for we are exceedingly afraid and ashamed to speak of it. This very city, in which, as you all know, Christ Himself suffered for us, because our sins demanded it, has been reduced to the pollution of paganism and, I say it to our disgrace, withdrawn from the service of God. Such is the heap of reproach upon us who have so much deserved it! Who now serves the church of the Blessed Mary in the valley of Josaphat, in which church she herself was buried in body? But why do we pass over the Temple of Solomon, nay of the Lord, in which the barbarous nations placed their idols contrary to law, human and divine? Of the Lord’s Sepulchre we have refrained from speaking, since some of you with your own eyes have seen to what abominations it has been given over. The Turks violently took from it the offerings which you brought there for alms in such vast amounts, and, in addition, they scoffed much and often 'at Your religion. And yet in that place (I say only what you already know) rested the Lord; there He died for us; there He was buried. How precious would be the longed for, incomparable place of the Lord’s burial, even if God failed there to perform the yearly miracle! For in the days of His Passion all the lights in the Sepulchre and round about in the church, which have been extinguished, are relighted by divine command. Whose heart is so stony, brethren, that it is not touched by so great a miracle? Believe me, that man is bestial and senseless whose heart such divinely manifest grace does not move to faith! And yet the Gentiles see this in common with the Christians and are not turned from their ways! They are, indeed, afraid, but they are not converted to the faith; nor is it to be wondered at, for a blindness of mind rules over them. With what afflictions they wronged you who have returned and are now present, you yourselves know too well you who there sacrificed your substance and your blood for God.”

 

[linuxgeek71]

Waiting eagerly for atheist opinion

You supply the plane ticket to Israel I’ll supply the atheists. Otherwise flaming soccer balls is all I can get out of them.

Can you recommend any links? I concede it could be posible under hypnosis to play with fire and not get burnt (not that Ive seen it) but this situation is a little more than that .

I know there are longer ones but anyway, youtube.com/watch?v=IFu9fOgnolI

Fair enough. What leans me towards belief is the place this miracle occurs.

Understandable.

 

[tyciol]

My best guess is that it is (appropriately phrased) sleight of hand. Not being a magician, I wouldn’t know the first thing about how to duplicate this, but my guess is that Penn and Teller or a good chemist would know how to create something that looks like a flame but doesn’t burn.

This site is rather big, so it would be helpful if you could direct a reader to what they are submitting as the strongest evidence of this being a miracle. Pictures aren’t enough for me since pictures can be faked, I would need documentation from a respected scientific authority on the scene, or else very conclusive evidence…

There are ways to protect hands from fire (like gloves), even though these people aren’t wearing gloves, maybe they are coated with something that protects them which is invisible to me. For example, if your hand is wet, you can pass it through flame with less singing (singeing?)

I really lack expertise in pyrotechnics and lightworks though, so I don’t know how to duplicate it, but that doesn’t mean I need to assume it came from the divine.

 

[ricko]

I must remain neutral. One problem I have with it is that it can/will only happen to the Orthodox, if a Catholic is present it will not occur? That seems a little strange considering that when the miracle of the sun occurred at Fatima it was witnessed by all even atheists.

 

[Patrick1982]

I must remain neutral. One problem I have with it is that it can/will only happen to the Orthodox, if a Catholic is present it will not occur? That seems a little strange considering that when the miracle of the sun occurred at Fatima it was witnessed by all even atheists.

Not if a Catholic is present the Holy fire won’t come: but when a Catholic hierarch has attempted to go into the tomb and recieve the Holy Fire instead of an Orthodox hierarch, which has happened, it did not descend for him.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

I must remain neutral. One problem I have with it is that it can/will only happen to the Orthodox, **if a Catholic is present it will not occur? ** That seems a little strange considering that when the miracle of the sun occurred at Fatima it was witnessed by all even atheists.

EH??? How would they vet people going there to see if they were catholic or not And catholics could just lie anyhows.
Personally, I think it’s a trick. Neat, but a trick.

 

[ricko]

Yea, the part about no Catholics present really bothers me especially when you consider that God did not play favorites at Fatima. I looked at the pictures and videos and all you can see is a candle being passed from the tomb and everyone lightning their candle from it. Though there are lots of eyewitnesses there has never been a film of any candle lighting by itself as claimed even though there seems to be cameras all over the place. With Catholics being excluded and others it appears to be an invention of the Orthodox to “prove” their religion. Sorry.

P.S. After doing more research I found this article, you have to scroll down though pass the “Holy Fire” rock group.
answers.com/topic/holy-fire

 

[imasinner]

I am a Catholic.I believe it.I accept it in faith.Just as I accept the Resurection in faith for example.The Orthodox are part of the True Faith as is the Catholic Church.They just happen to be in schism,although I’m sure their position is that we are.They have the True Presence and all 7 efficacsious Sacraments.

It is not required that I believe this but I choose to do so.To me it is one more proof that the Orthodox are the other lung of Christianity.Apologies to Pope John Paul the Great.

As Ive only just discovered this Im undecided but on the surface I can accept this miracle if the Church has NOT spoken against it. But of course I have many questions I need to answer before I can fully accept it as true. Frankly, as a Catholic, that the Church does not celebrate this miracle is an obstacle in my fully believing in it. So I got a lot of research do and Im hoping others can make it easier for me by providing valid links

According to the site, it is the Armenian archbishop who enters the chapel alone and is the sole witness to this miracle (if I am reading this correctly). If this is a hoax then he is obviously aware of it. This is find unbelievable, i.e that the Orthodox Church would be willingly to perpetuate a deliberate hoax for so long…1000yrs at least.