Miracle of the Holy Fire...is this for real?

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tyciol said:
My best guess is that it is (appropriately phrased) sleight of hand. Not being a magician, I wouldn’t know the first thing about how to duplicate this, but my guess is that Penn and Teller or a good chemist would know how to create something that looks like a flame but doesn’t burn.

This site is rather big, so it would be helpful if you could direct a reader to what they are submitting as the strongest evidence of this being a miracle. Pictures aren’t enough for me since pictures can be faked, I would need documentation from a respected scientific authority on the scene, or else very conclusive evidence…

There are ways to protect hands from fire (like gloves), even though these people aren’t wearing gloves, maybe they are coated with something that protects them which is invisible to me. For example, if your hand is wet, you can pass it through flame with less singing (singeing?)

I really lack expertise in pyrotechnics and lightworks though, so I don’t know how to duplicate it, but that doesn’t mean I need to assume it came from the divine.
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It is either a miracle or it is a hoax I cant say which but I am very curious as to how well known this “miracle” in the West therefore my thread. But I agree with your last sentence. Seeing can be deceiving…recalling how David Copperfield levitated and “flew” around stage of one his televised shows 🤷
 
ricko said:
Yea, the part about no Catholics present really bothers me especially when you consider that God did not play favorites at Fatima. I looked at the pictures and videos and all you can see is a candle being passed from the tomb and everyone lightning their candle from it. Though there are lots of eyewitnesses there has never been a film of any candle lighting by itself as claimed even though there seems to be cameras all over the place. With Catholics being excluded and others it appears to be an invention of the Orthodox to “prove” their religion. Sorry.

P.S. After doing more research I found this article, you have to scroll down though pass the “Holy Fire” rock group.
answers.com/topic/holy-fire
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Yup, bothers me too.

Another is, the site claims the Holy Fire doesnt burn for the first half hour (33 minutes to be precise) which implies that after this time it reverts to being an earthly fire and will burn you physically.

The uninvolvement of the Catholic Church would be voluntary I would say and this speaks volumns for me. There is a reason why the Church ignores this miracle.
 
Patrick1982 said:
I believe the same about Fatima. 😃
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Maybe you believe it is a lie, but I don’t see how it could be a trick. Making people see the Blessed Virgin, or modifying the sun would seem to be outside typical trickery. Making fire on the other hand…
 
Patrick1982 said:
I believe the same about Fatima. 😃
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That’s your perogative 😃 The miracle of the sun was witnessed by hundreds and all at the same instant at Fatima. The Holy Fire miracle is witnessed by one man for the pass 16yrs the same person according to the link…the Armenian bishop of Jerusaleum THEN the Fire is passed on as a miracle. Much more room for a hoax here than at Fatima.
 
linuxgeek71 said:
Maybe you believe it is a lie, but I don’t see how it could be a trick. Making people see the Blessed Virgin, or modifying the sun would seem to be outside typical trickery. Making fire on the other hand…
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I’m sure for a demon it’s nothing. 🤷
 
ricko said:
Yea, the part about no Catholics present really bothers me especially when you consider that God did not play favorites at Fatima. I looked at the pictures and videos and all you can see is a candle being passed from the tomb and everyone lightning their candle from it. Though there are lots of eyewitnesses there has never been a film of any candle lighting by itself as claimed even though there seems to be cameras all over the place. With Catholics being excluded and others it appears to be an invention of the Orthodox to “prove” their religion. Sorry.

P.S. After doing more research I found this article, you have to scroll down though pass the “Holy Fire” rock group.
answers.com/topic/holy-fire
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Pope Urban II would call you “bestial and senseless then”! 😃

“Believe me, that man is bestial and senseless whose heart such divinely manifest grace does not move to faith!”
 
Patrick1982 said:
I’m sure for a demon it’s nothing. 🤷
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I wouldn’t call demonic influence a trick. I believe when the people above were using the word they were saying they believed nothing supernatural was occurring. I don’t think anyone was accusing the Orthodox of communing with demons.
 
linuxgeek71 said:
I wouldn’t call demonic influence a trick. I believe when the people above were using the word they were saying they believed nothing supernatural was occurring. I don’t think anyone was accusing the Orthodox of communing with demons.
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I was referring to Fatima, and now that I think about it that probably wasn’t the most sensitive way to put it, so I apologize- please forgive! :gopray2:
 
Why should we be supposing that a member of the Orthodox priesthood, who we recognize have valid sacraments and valid apostolic succesion and ostensibly seek to reunite with someday, would in any way be lying or engaging in trickery with regard to this act? This is not good, folks. This is starting to read no differently than some of the comments that you’ll see on the “Holy Fire” videos on youtube, where Orthodox do indeed use it as “proof” of the falsehood of Catholicism (‘see, it only comes to the Orthodox, because we are better than you!’ sort of stuff), and Catholics in turn accuse Orthodox of being cheats and swindlers and all kinds of nasty things.

If you think we ought to be one Church, then start acting like it. You don’t need to believe in this or the miracle at Fatima, but at least respect the fact that other people do.
 
dzheremi said:
Why should we be supposing that a member of the Orthodox priesthood, who we recognize have valid sacraments and valid apostolic succesion and ostensibly seek to reunite with someday, would in any way be lying or engaging in trickery with regard to this act? This is not good, folks. This is starting to read no differently than some of the comments that you’ll see on the “Holy Fire” videos on youtube, where Orthodox do indeed use it as “proof” of the falsehood of Catholicism (‘see, it only comes to the Orthodox, because we are better than you!’ sort of stuff), and Catholics in turn accuse Orthodox of being cheats and swindlers and all kinds of nasty things.

If you think we ought to be one Church, then start acting like it. You don’t need to believe in this or the miracle at Fatima, but at least respect the fact that other people do.
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I’ll agree that respect should be shown. I don’t understand however, what the validity of their sacraments has to do with claimed miracles. There have been faked miracles in the Church, why would we assume the Orthodox are above this? Blindly accepting any and all claimed miracles doesn’t seem like such a good idea. I think respect has been shown up to this point, while still displaying skepticism.
 
I hope this false miracle isn’t happening in the actual tomb of Jesus.

And I’m not surprised the Orthodox Church uses false miracles. I mean, they’ve invented saints. If you can get away with inventing people, you can get away with anything!
 
Dear Imasinner,
imasinner said:
Thank you Soultane! You have heard of this miracle before? Do you know if the Church has ever said something on this. I realise we are not required to believe this but why on earth would the Church ignore this unless the powers that be see it as evidence against Her as the true Church. 🤷 I believe the Orthodox stance is that we are heretics 🙂 and being blessed with this miracle EVERY YEAR on the day they celebrate it (Easter dates in Orthodox and Catholic are determined differently) seems logical thinking to me if I was Orthodox.
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I don’t see how this proves that the EO are the true Church. If it proves anything it is that God exists. There is also a Eucharistic Miracle in the Catholic Church in Lanciano Italy that is well attested to. The Miracle occurred when East and West was still united. The miracle is still extant and it is in a Catholic Church. And what about the miracle of the stigmata which is well documented in the Catholic Church, not among the EO? Since the Orthodox believe Catholics are heretics, do these miracles prove that they are wrong?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Eucharisted said:
I hope this false miracle isn’t happening in the actual tomb of Jesus.

And I’m not surprised the Orthodox Church uses false miracles. I mean, they’ve invented saints. If you can get away with inventing people, you can get away with anything!
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Woahhhhh buddy! Me thinks you need to take a lenten break from the computer! :eek: I’d love to hear which Saints you think we “invented”… hmm?
 
Patrick1982 said:
Woahhhhh buddy! Me thinks you need to take a lenten break from the computer! :eek: I’d love to hear which Saints you think we “invented”… hmm?
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I don’t know of any saints in particular, but I did come upon this:
During this century true religion lay buried under a senseless mass of superstitions, and was unable to raise her head. The earlier Christians had worshipped only God and His Son; but those called Christians in this century worshipped the wood of a cross, the images of holy men, and bones of dubious origin.
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  • Mosheim, Cent. VII, pt. 11, cap iii. § 1, ed. Reid.
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Eucharisted said:
I don’t know of any saints in particular, but I did come upon this:
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Errrrrrr… you’re Catholic you said? :confused:

That quote is calling both of us idolators for believing in the intercession of the Saints, the veneration of images and the power of the Precious and Life-giving Cross…
 
imasinner said:
Is this reference specific to the Holy Fire ceremonies of the Orthodox Church or in general? Pls expand
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As Patrick1982 said, it refers to the alleged miracle of the Holy Fire on Pascha in Jerusalem. Pope Urban II’s speech was nearly one thousand years ago, so this Holy Fire situation is not something that appeared recently. I don’t know when the first recorded instance of this occurred, but at the time of Pope Urban II, the Schism was only a few decades old. This phenomenon may predate the East-West Schism, which would have made it a miracle of the undivided Church. The fact that it now only seems to happen for the Orthodox is something worth discussing, I think.

For the record, it is the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem who enters the tomb and receives the Holy Fire, not the Armenian Patriarch. The Armenian Orthodox are often referred to as Oriental Orthodox, and are not a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
 
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