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Jaguar
Guest
Atheists & Agnostics, what are your thoughts on proven miracles?
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Mirdath
Guest
Proven? Like which?
I have no particular opinion about any miracle. We do not know everything about how the universe operates; and what that unknown is may be a deity, or it may be something totally mundane.
G
Genesis315
Guest
Well, what would cause this? It perfectly fits with a well-known Deity
ipitimes.com/lle.htm
http://www.ipitimes.com/coral34.gif
“But tests done when the church was built show how stupendous this image actually is. Geologists from Germany bored core samples from several spots in the image. There is no paint, no dye, nor any other pigment on the surface of the rock. The colours are the colours of the rock itself. Even more incredible, the rock is perfectly coloured to a depth of several feet!”
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Mirdath
Guest
If true, why isn’t Las Lajas a geologists’ Mecca? Has a reputable geological journal ever run a story on it? I looked around briefly and couldn’t find much in the way of other sources for the story (all basically reprints of that article), and nothing about these mysterious German geologists. If they drilled samples and found it so amazing, why didn’t they publish anything?Well, what would cause this? It perfectly fits with a well-known Deity
I will say this – the cathedral is beautiful. I doubt the supernatural had anything to do with the ‘miracle’, and rather doubt the purely natural did either, but I’m still glad it happened just for that building.
C
cheddarsox
Guest
This is my take on miracles…The entire universe is the revelation of the Divine. The more we study it, the more astoundingly mind boggling we find it to be, in great part, because it all works together. Because there are ‘systems’ at work.
Personally, I find that much more supportive of some kind of order behind the whole thing than many of the odd anomolies that people trot out to support their deities.So many “miracles” look suspiciously like the work of humans, concerned with the trivia that humans often allow to consume their souls and lives.
Most miracles, in my opinion, at least the one’s that are presented to me by believers, make the deity they supposedly “prove” look rather ridiculous, than God-like. They make the deity appear to behave more like the demons they fear than the creator and guide of the entire universe. And the fact that they draw so much attention to themselves, and such rabid devotion makes me even more suspicious.
I am not only referring to Catholic miracles.
Also, how does one prove that something is undoubtedly a miracle? Lack of a “human” explanation? Well then…look around you, we can’t truly explain any of it. Does that make you believe in my concept of “God”? Because I see the universe as the functioning ‘body’ of the Divine.
It’s awesome.
I see messages, left for all of us, in rocks as well.
cheddar
Personally, I find that much more supportive of some kind of order behind the whole thing than many of the odd anomolies that people trot out to support their deities.So many “miracles” look suspiciously like the work of humans, concerned with the trivia that humans often allow to consume their souls and lives.
Most miracles, in my opinion, at least the one’s that are presented to me by believers, make the deity they supposedly “prove” look rather ridiculous, than God-like. They make the deity appear to behave more like the demons they fear than the creator and guide of the entire universe. And the fact that they draw so much attention to themselves, and such rabid devotion makes me even more suspicious.
I am not only referring to Catholic miracles.
Also, how does one prove that something is undoubtedly a miracle? Lack of a “human” explanation? Well then…look around you, we can’t truly explain any of it. Does that make you believe in my concept of “God”? Because I see the universe as the functioning ‘body’ of the Divine.
It’s awesome.
I see messages, left for all of us, in rocks as well.
cheddar
W
whatever
Guest
There are no proven miracles.
B
blacktiger057
Guest
I don’t get atheists. Look around you and tell me how can there not be a God?
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water
Guest
yup, miracles are right in front of us.
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Mirdath
Guest
The word ‘miracle’ simply means ‘wondrous thing’, and in that sense I agree. I very much doubt that if we were to compile a list of things we considered ‘miraculous’, we’d have any items in common
There are many things we do not possess explanations for, and some we may never be able to explain. Does that imply divine influence? To some people, perhaps, but to me all it says is ‘we don’t know everything’.
W
water
Guest
Nothing is considered as simple without the Creator.The word ‘miracle’ simply means ‘wondrous thing’, and in that sense I agree. I very much doubt that if we were to compile a list of things we considered ‘miraculous’, we’d have any items in common
There are many things we do not possess explanations for, and some we may never be able to explain. Does that imply divine influence? To some people, perhaps, but to me all it says is ‘we don’t know everything’.
What is the sum of 1 + 3?
you said “4” - very good! bravo…
Now, turn your brain “off”.
What is the sum of 1 + 3?
Don’t take God out of your life.
B
burnside
Guest
That kind of statement can get you out of gaol.You can use it to avoid believing anything that is inconvenient.
I used to work with a man who described himself as agnostic.One morning when i went to read my newspaper he wanted me to tell him what his “Stars” were for that day.I said,“i thought you agnostics didn’t believe in this superstitious stuff”!!!
Back in the 1970’s,a man who lived near me was dying of cancer.
He was prayed for and made a marvellous recovery which doctors could not explain.The man admitted that previously he had been a wishy-washy catholic.He outlived the doctor who had been treating him,his wife,and the parish priest who pushed for the
canonization of Blessed John Ogilvie.
Scotland’s answer to Ian Paisley,Pastor Jack Glass(breakaway Baptist)scoffed at this miracle.However,when he himself had a cancer scare 2or3 years ago he was prayed for.When the cancer
seemed to leave him,his members were talking about a miracle.Within a few months,it came back and he died aged 67.
It’s funny how he allowed his own apparent recovery to be described as a miracle when he had slagged off the catholic miracle.
catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=820
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whatever
Guest
I don’t get theists. How can they be so credulous or needy?
By the way, “there can not be a god” is not a part of my outlook in life and I would guess there aren’t all that many atheists who fit that particular stereotype.
A
anthony022071
Guest
Miracles can’t be proven.
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RedSoxFan
Guest
Well here is a story that makes me want to bang my head. When I was little (about 10-12 years old) I was in a CCD class. We were praying the rosary outloud with the whole class.
During the prayer I noticed that the statue of St. Mary appeared to be crying. (Later I found out it was the Our Lady of Grace statue). I looked around and I appeared to be the only one to notice. There were about 8 of us in that particular class room with 1 middle aged woman teacher. After the praying the rosary the class had a break and I walked over to the statue and wiped off the tears from her face. I said a few private words and ended up tasting the tears that were on my hands. It was a real tear.
There were no leaky pipes around, there were no windows open. No one had spilled a drink.(It was, in fact, up on a bookshelf about 5 feet high). By logical reasoning I had witnessed the impossible. I accepted it as legitimate.
My twin brother, once the break was over, stated to the teacher that he had seen the statue cry, as had another boy. I was happy wasn’t the only one to have seen it.
Fast forward about 17 years and now and I asked my twin brother about it. He said he remembered something about it, But couldn’t remember too well. I asked him this because when he was a punk teen-ager he would walk around saying he didn’t believe in God. I think that was just for the shock value.
When he said he remembered something I mentioned being glad that he had remembered. The I said something to the effect that “I guess your not an aetheist anymore.” “No I am.” “You mean an agnostic?” “No, I am.” My reaction was disbelief.
“How can you think this when you have seen what we have seen?” Needless to say things are strained right now. He is going to be a work in progress. I just cannot fathom why he would be an aethesit when he has seen a miracle. I guess writing about it keeps me from banging my head on the keyboard. Please pray for him and his family while I try to figure out why he is being so stubborn.
During the prayer I noticed that the statue of St. Mary appeared to be crying. (Later I found out it was the Our Lady of Grace statue). I looked around and I appeared to be the only one to notice. There were about 8 of us in that particular class room with 1 middle aged woman teacher. After the praying the rosary the class had a break and I walked over to the statue and wiped off the tears from her face. I said a few private words and ended up tasting the tears that were on my hands. It was a real tear.
There were no leaky pipes around, there were no windows open. No one had spilled a drink.(It was, in fact, up on a bookshelf about 5 feet high). By logical reasoning I had witnessed the impossible. I accepted it as legitimate.
My twin brother, once the break was over, stated to the teacher that he had seen the statue cry, as had another boy. I was happy wasn’t the only one to have seen it.
Fast forward about 17 years and now and I asked my twin brother about it. He said he remembered something about it, But couldn’t remember too well. I asked him this because when he was a punk teen-ager he would walk around saying he didn’t believe in God. I think that was just for the shock value.
When he said he remembered something I mentioned being glad that he had remembered. The I said something to the effect that “I guess your not an aetheist anymore.” “No I am.” “You mean an agnostic?” “No, I am.” My reaction was disbelief.
“How can you think this when you have seen what we have seen?” Needless to say things are strained right now. He is going to be a work in progress. I just cannot fathom why he would be an aethesit when he has seen a miracle. I guess writing about it keeps me from banging my head on the keyboard. Please pray for him and his family while I try to figure out why he is being so stubborn.
M
Mirdath
Guest
One plus three is four no matter what I think about it. Simple? Yep.
Truth is pretty good for that.
It’s not about convenience; quite simply, the fact that we are not omniscient and omnipotent does not in any way prove or even imply that there is anything possessing these qualities.
W
whatever
Guest
Find out who put olive oil on the statue. Either the teacher was pranking you or somebody was playing tricks on the teacher.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Mirza Tahir Ahmad, the grandson of the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908, has written a very thought provoking essay on miracles. I think it would enable the members to understand the miracles and also the miraculous birth of Jesus without a father:
What are Miracles?
With the possibility of virgin birth being wide open, it does not remain to be all that impossible and unnatural. Where is the need to search for a supernatural explanation of Jesus’ birth, or even go beyond that to the farthest extreme of believing in the birth of a literal ‘Son’ of God through a human birth? When all this is observed as a fact of nature, why is it hard to believe that the birth of Jesus Christ was a hidden natural phenomenon, brought about by a special design of God? Something happened in Mary which gave that child a miraculous birth, without a man having touched her. It is the Ahmadiyya Muslim belief that this is exactly what happened. Our case is unshakeable because no scientist can dismiss it as nonsensical or opposed to the known laws of nature.
Miracles are not seen in Islam as unnatural occurrences, but as natural phenomena that are concealed from human knowledge at that period of time. Otherwise, there would be many questions raised against the wisdom of God. If God created the laws of nature Himself, He should have made some provisions whereby without breaking them, He could bring about desired solutions to a problem.
Not all laws are known to man. There are categories of laws working as if in different tiers and on separate plains. Sometimes they are known to man only on one plain and man’s sight is not able to penetrate beyond. As time goes on, man’s knowledge increases, so does the penetration and his capacity to observe such laws as hitherto remained unperceived. In another era of scientific progress, new discoveries throw more light on such laws which seem to work in groups. So, not only is their function better understood but also their interaction with other laws.
Those things that appeared to be miracles in the early ages are no longer considered so. Miracles are so, only in relation to man’s knowledge in a specific period of time. When a special exercise of God’s power is displayed, apparently a law is broken. But it is not so; it is a hidden law that was already there and came into operation through God’s command. The people of that time could not have understood that law nor had they any control over it. For example, the force of magnetism was not known to man a few thousand years ago. If somebody had accidentally discovered it and had contrived a device by which he could levitate things without any apparent cause discernible to the naked eye and to the wonderment of everyone, he could then exclaim, ‘Lo, a miracle, a miracle’. Today, such tricks are considered common place and trivial. The knowledge of man is limited whereas that of God is unlimited. If a law comes into operation that is beyond the scope of man’s knowledge, it looks like a miracle. But looking retrospectively at such instances with the hindsight of knowledge gained since, we can dismiss all such so-called breaches of the laws of nature as merely natural phenomena which were not fully comprehended by the man of that age. This is why I said that there had to be a natural phenomenon responsible for the single parent birth of Jesus Christ, which was unknown to man of that period; it is not fully known to man even today. But science is advancing in that direction and more is being understood. A time may therefore come, when no one will be able to claim that the birth of Jesus was unnatural. They would have to agree that it was a natural but rare occurrence, so rare that it seldom occurs in human experience.
Unquote
Thanks
Mirza Tahir Ahmad, the grandson of the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908, has written a very thought provoking essay on miracles. I think it would enable the members to understand the miracles and also the miraculous birth of Jesus without a father:
What are Miracles?
With the possibility of virgin birth being wide open, it does not remain to be all that impossible and unnatural. Where is the need to search for a supernatural explanation of Jesus’ birth, or even go beyond that to the farthest extreme of believing in the birth of a literal ‘Son’ of God through a human birth? When all this is observed as a fact of nature, why is it hard to believe that the birth of Jesus Christ was a hidden natural phenomenon, brought about by a special design of God? Something happened in Mary which gave that child a miraculous birth, without a man having touched her. It is the Ahmadiyya Muslim belief that this is exactly what happened. Our case is unshakeable because no scientist can dismiss it as nonsensical or opposed to the known laws of nature.
Miracles are not seen in Islam as unnatural occurrences, but as natural phenomena that are concealed from human knowledge at that period of time. Otherwise, there would be many questions raised against the wisdom of God. If God created the laws of nature Himself, He should have made some provisions whereby without breaking them, He could bring about desired solutions to a problem.
Not all laws are known to man. There are categories of laws working as if in different tiers and on separate plains. Sometimes they are known to man only on one plain and man’s sight is not able to penetrate beyond. As time goes on, man’s knowledge increases, so does the penetration and his capacity to observe such laws as hitherto remained unperceived. In another era of scientific progress, new discoveries throw more light on such laws which seem to work in groups. So, not only is their function better understood but also their interaction with other laws.
Those things that appeared to be miracles in the early ages are no longer considered so. Miracles are so, only in relation to man’s knowledge in a specific period of time. When a special exercise of God’s power is displayed, apparently a law is broken. But it is not so; it is a hidden law that was already there and came into operation through God’s command. The people of that time could not have understood that law nor had they any control over it. For example, the force of magnetism was not known to man a few thousand years ago. If somebody had accidentally discovered it and had contrived a device by which he could levitate things without any apparent cause discernible to the naked eye and to the wonderment of everyone, he could then exclaim, ‘Lo, a miracle, a miracle’. Today, such tricks are considered common place and trivial. The knowledge of man is limited whereas that of God is unlimited. If a law comes into operation that is beyond the scope of man’s knowledge, it looks like a miracle. But looking retrospectively at such instances with the hindsight of knowledge gained since, we can dismiss all such so-called breaches of the laws of nature as merely natural phenomena which were not fully comprehended by the man of that age. This is why I said that there had to be a natural phenomenon responsible for the single parent birth of Jesus Christ, which was unknown to man of that period; it is not fully known to man even today. But science is advancing in that direction and more is being understood. A time may therefore come, when no one will be able to claim that the birth of Jesus was unnatural. They would have to agree that it was a natural but rare occurrence, so rare that it seldom occurs in human experience.
Unquote
Thanks
W
water
Guest
Now, leave your brain out, see if you can do the math.
M
Mirdath
Guest
I could be a comatose vegetable and one plus three would still be four. My presence or absence doesn’t make one whit of difference.Now, leave your brain out, see if you can do the math.
Are you telling me that the reason I do not believe in miracles is because I think?
B
blacktiger057
Guest
Some say that walking on water or fire is a miracle. Some say that walking on air is a miracles. But I say that the true miracle is when we walk on the earth. So many mdeeptrancenow.com/acim2.htmiracles happen everday. We just need to look for them.
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