Miracles, Athiests & Agnostics

[christcnection1]

Damn right, u can’t.

Who decided that only folks who spell right, dress in suits, and smoke cigars deserve respect?

What about the poor, the uneducated, and the weak?

And those who can’t spell?

Jesus came to seek and save those who can’t spell. I know that’s somewhere in the gospels.

 

[Mirdath]

Jesus came to seek and save those who can’t spell. I know that’s somewhere in the gospels.

It’s the ninth beatitude: ‘Blessed are the poor of spelling, for they shall see dog.’

 

[christcnection1]

It’s the ninth beatitude: ‘Blessed are the poor of spelling, for they shall see dog.’

When I was an atheist, I use to say the pledge… " and one nation, under dog…"

Lord have mercy!​

This whole thread exchange reminds me of a passage of scripture:

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 16:19-31​

Even if some grand miracle(s) happened, many people wouldn’t care. I would go as far to say, even if they knew Jesus Christ was truly the Son of God who died for their sins, many would not care.

When a person truly has this attitude, there is no use in wasting your time with them.

 

[Mirdath]

Even if some grand miracle(s) happened, many people wouldn’t care. I would go as far to say, even if they knew Jesus Christ was truly the Son of God who died for their sins, many would not care.

When a person truly has this attitude, there is no use in wasting your time with them.

If I knew, I’d be diving back into the Tiber – or other divinely-pointed-out body of water – right this instant. I don’t know, however, and I’m pretty sure I can’t know, barring divine intervention.

 

[Blinky]

Well, what would cause this? It perfectly fits with a well-known Deity

ipitimes.com/lle.htm

http://www.ipitimes.com/coral34.gif

“But tests done when the church was built show how stupendous this image actually is. Geologists from Germany bored core samples from several spots in the image. There is no paint, no dye, nor any other pigment on the surface of the rock. The colours are the colours of the rock itself. Even more incredible, the rock is perfectly coloured to a depth of several feet!”

Thanks for the link. I hadn’t heard of Our Lady of Las Lajas before. My favorite miracles are the cures at Lourdes.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Anger is not among the reasons why I’m not receptive towards religious belief. Not passing the laugh test is. Feel free to believe what you want, just don’t expect me to respect your beliefs. (Then it would tend to suggest that you have a low self-confidence that you need to laugh at another’s religion when you yourself are an aethiest. At least when a religious person laughs at another’s religion there is a distinct possibilty that they are trying to “save” that person. Your just getting your pathetic kicks…but whatever.)

My sentiments towards organized religion are a different matter.

If organized religion doesn’t get in my face, I won’t waste a second thought on it. (You can’t really argue about it getting into you face when you frequently go to a Catholic website and provoke people…but whatever.)

A combination of “know your enemy” and snarking when I feel like it. I don’t waste a lot of time actually arguing around here.(Timewise at best. Argumentwise I seem to be talking to you quite a bit actually…but whatever.)

By the way, Pascal’s Wager… Feel free to use it, but it’ll only work on atheists we’ll gladly send packing.(I noted that Pascal’s Wager probably wasn’t the best argument. It was just the one I choose to use when talking to an Aetheist. Still inspite of you prediction of my packing it in and going away, I’m still here…but whatever.)

 

[RedSoxFan]

An impersonal Creator may not even be sentient; one with a personality may find us boring or so far beneath it that we are of no consequence. Or the Deists could have it right. (If he is that impersonal then taking the risk wouldn’t really hurt in the long run.)

Yes, and that’s a problem: Catholic belief specifically states that those who don’t believe can still be saved, where Pascal does not take this into account. (Still it seems that this would be an overextention of what Pascal was saying.)

Another problem: how does anyone else know that Pascal is right about Christianity? The Wager tells me to believe, but it does not prove that Jesus was God. Any other religion might be just as acceptable – or more – than Catholicism. (LOL Pascal’s Wager is a wager unparralled! Another religion theoretically could work, but that would be extending the Wager into areas it was not meant to go in. If one does that then I think the next step would be to automatically eliminate those who do not punish for denial. Then one would if he was trying to cover his bases by doing things like choosing the three big religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism becuase they ultimately have the same God. You could go on but that is a departure from what Pascal’s intentions were and that is where corruption of the wager takes place.)

In terms of treating faith like buying insurance, indeed. (Close, the wager, if accpeted, would leave the person open to accept the possibility. Once that is done anything could happen. Still if you want to simplify the matter of the eternal fate of the soul to buying insurance knock yourself out. To me (in a simplified way) it seems like your taking a look at Disney World and shrugging it off as a evil corporation and ignoring how much fun the rides there could be.)

Exactly. Mere belief is not enough according to Catholicism, but it is if one takes Pascal’s argument at face value. Believe and go to heaven, don’t believe and go to hell. (Mere belief for the Catholic. Keep in mind in Catholicism whenever anyone is baptized, whether it is a baptism of desire or another sort, all thier sins are forgiven. So for the Catholic he would have already been baptized and could not get another baptism. In this case confession or last rites are needed.)

Honest, sincere effort does not necessarily result in true belief – I’m a poster child for that. I can still recite the Paternoster and Ave Maria, and I still know when to stand, sit, and kneel, and I could do all that all I liked, but I do not believe. If I take the Wager, I’m just pretending. Can’t a deity see through that? (If you are taking the wager your are not pretending, you are making a sincere effort in which there is a possibilty, however small it may be. You would open yourself to the possibilty by taking the wager. Yes, God espeacially in this case would know that you didn’t believe. Taking the wager itself doesn’t guarentee anything. It’s a wager with the hope that a benevolent God would have mercy on those who actively persued him and were open to divine revelation or acceptance of God. It’s always been a risk. Just one that is deemed by many, me included, to be too big to ignore.)

Then, hopefully, either God’s a universalist or my sincere efforts to work for the good of what I can see let me sneak in upstairs, and I’ll buy you one (I’m looking forward to it!)

 

[RedSoxFan]

It’s the ninth beatitude: ‘Blessed are the poor of spelling, for they shall see dog.’

 

[Mirdath]

If he is that impersonal then taking the risk wouldn’t really hurt in the long run.

And there’s the rub. The Wager is always presented as ‘well, what will it hurt?’ It hurts my chances of attaining Nirvana, Jannah, and Valhalla, that’s what! You’re selling me fire insurance when I could be sitting on a fault line in the Mississippi flood plain hurricane zone.

And the thing is, it’s expensive fire insurance. Being Catholic is not easy (I should know). There are a lot of things I’d have to sacrifice for it, I’d have to make a lot of efforts to keep myself in line with the teachings of the Church, and I’d somehow have to come up with true belief. It’s really the last one that’s the clincher: I can’t do it, and it’s not for lack of trying.

Still it seems that this would be an overextention of what Pascal was saying.

It’s something he simply didn’t take into account, but should have.

LOL Pascal’s Wager is a wager unparralled! Another religion theoretically could work, but that would be extending the Wager into areas it was not meant to go in.

If it is intended to convince me to try being Catholic, it’s going to have to go there. I need it to rule out Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Shinto, Islam, Jainism, Protestantism, animism, Voudoun, pantheism, panentheism, Wicca, devil worship, Deism, Santeria, Asatru, Discordianism… otherwise how will I know that Catholicism is right for me?

Close, the wager, if accpeted, would leave the person open to accept the possibility. Once that is done anything could happen.

I’m open to it right now! But pretending to be faithful when I am not is something I will never do.

Mere belief for the Catholic. Keep in mind in Catholicism whenever anyone is baptized, whether it is a baptism of desire or another sort, all thier sins are forgiven. So for the Catholic he would have already been baptized and could not get another baptism. In this case confession or last rites are needed.

Yes. But the way Pascal puts it is a gross oversimplification: be Catholic, go to Heaven. Don’t be Catholic, go to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred dollars. Neither situation reflects the actual teaching of the Catholic Church.

If you are taking the wager your are not pretending, you are making a sincere effort in which there is a possibilty, however small it may be. You would open yourself to the possibilty by taking the wager. Yes, God espeacially in this case would know that you didn’t believe. Taking the wager itself doesn’t guarentee anything. It’s a wager with the hope that a benevolent God would have mercy on those who actively persued him and were open to divine revelation or acceptance of God. It’s always been a risk. Just one that is deemed by many, me included, to be too big to ignore.

If God wants me to have faith, he can convert me from where I’m at; after all, he’s omnipotent. I am not prejudiced against faith, I simply don’t possess it. And I am not going to put your God to the test by pretending to worship him and expecting faith to follow.

 

[christcnection1]

If I knew, I’d be diving back into the Tiber – or other divinely-pointed-out body of water – right this instant. I don’t know, however, and I’m pretty sure I can’t know, barring divine intervention.

Mirdath,

I appreciate your honesty and integrity. Unlike many agnostics and nonbelievers, I think you are a sincere truth-seeker.

Quite frankly, I understand why people are reluctant to embrace the Catholic faith. This also includes other faith traditions. Most demand something of us, if we are going to truly live it out.

Faith has always come difficult to me. I’m a former agnostic, that converted to Evangelical Protestantism, and then to Catholicism. Honestly, it has been very difficult at times, but I have found my peace through the storms.

Much of my journey has not only been intellectual, but also very supernatural. I cannot possibly explain the mysterious events of my life apart from a higher power, namely, the Christian God. This comes from someone who utterly dismissed miracles and the possibility of God in my youth.

I would very much like to send you a copy of my short book. It’s basically my story of a very ordinary person, with some extraordinary experiences. I have received positive feedback from many walks of life, so even if you can’t accept all of it, I think you would find it intriguing.

Please send me a personal message if you’re interested. I wish you all the best in your journey…

Jonathon

 

[Mirdath]

I appreciate your honesty and integrity. Unlike many agnostics and nonbelievers, I think you are a sincere truth-seeker.

Thanks

Quite frankly, I understand why people are reluctant to embrace the Catholic faith. This also includes other faith traditions. Most demand something of us, if we are going to truly live it out.

So does proper secular humanism, for that matter. I am fairly far down on the list of my own priorities. It isn’t always all that easy either, but it brings with it its own peace

While I never managed it myself, I’m glad you’ve found your own peace in religion. I still see so many people making their own hells on earth out of it, and it’s saddening.

I would very much like to send you a copy of my short book. It’s basically my story of a very ordinary person, with some extraordinary experiences. I have received positive feedback from many walks of life, so even if you can’t accept all of it, I think you would find it intriguing.

Please send me a personal message if you’re interested. I wish you all the best in your journey…

Sure! I don’t know if I’ll be able to get to it any time soon – I don’t have too much free time (and I spend a lot of that here), and I do have a lot of books already waiting to be read But I promise I will at some point, barring my premature death

Shall I just pm you with my address?

 

[christcnection1]

Thanks

You’re welcome Mirdath

Shall I just pm you with my address?

Yes… we’ll talk about those details in private though.

Peace,
Jonathon

 

[whatever]

whatever;2449987:

You can’t really argue about it getting into you face when you frequently go to a Catholic website and provoke people…but whatever.

To return the favor and provoke Catholics, you have to go where Catholics are. I don’t seem to have the knack to get banned, which is a crying shame. What do I have to do to finally get kicked out?

 

[RedSoxFan]

And there’s the rub. The Wager is always presented as ‘well, what will it hurt?’ It hurts my chances of attaining Nirvana, Jannah, and Valhalla, that’s what! You’re selling me fire insurance when I could be sitting on a fault line in the Mississippi flood plain hurricane zone.

And the thing is, it’s expensive fire insurance. Being Catholic is not easy (I should know). There are a lot of things I’d have to sacrifice for it, I’d have to make a lot of efforts to keep myself in line with the teachings of the Church, and I’d somehow have to come up with true belief. It’s really the last one that’s the clincher: I can’t do it, and it’s not for lack of trying.

It’s something he simply didn’t take into account, but should have.

If it is intended to convince me to try being Catholic, it’s going to have to go there. I need it to rule out Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Shinto, Islam, Jainism, Protestantism, animism, Voudoun, pantheism, panentheism, Wicca, devil worship, Deism, Santeria, Asatru, Discordianism… otherwise how will I know that Catholicism is right for me?

I’m open to it right now! But pretending to be faithful when I am not is something I will never do.

Yes. But the way Pascal puts it is a gross oversimplification: be Catholic, go to Heaven. Don’t be Catholic, go to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred dollars. Neither situation reflects the actual teaching of the Catholic Church.

If God wants me to have faith, he can convert me from where I’m at; after all, he’s omnipotent. I am not prejudiced against faith, I simply don’t possess it. And I am not going to put your God to the test by pretending to worship him and expecting faith to follow.

Valhalla? Somehow I doubt that Valhalla was real that you would be going there anyways. Though I could be wrong about this; your too much of a thinker to be a bloodlust filled, great viking warrior. Though without having met you I am only taking a guess.
As for changing your life for Catholicism, which can be inconvienent, it has been shown on a recent episode of the Stephen Colbert show, that religion is one of the two things that makes people truly happy. That was comming from the Harvard professor who wrote the book, not Mr. Colbert. Though the burning point in your noggin right now is “HOW DO I KNOW WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE!!!” That is the toughest question of all.
I could easily give you the answer but you would have no reason to accept my word for it. I could say that I’ll pray for you, but that just seems to tick off aethists (some). Anything that has happend in my life like the miracle I mentioned would not help you out in the slightest. Though it would have if you were there. My advice then becomes that you must search out every possible avenue to finding out about God. I think you might already be doing this from what you say, but this is something that takes a lifetime to do. I’m convinced it will eventually lead you back to Catholicism.
But, go ahead, look everywhere. Fly to Tibet, Jerusalem, Rome, Salt Lake, heck go everywhere. Don’t be discouraged by the size of your task. Talk like you do to all the various groups out there. Heck do it a lot of it online like your already doing. At the very least when your done you will have had one heck of a trip. I know that your trying, so keep up the good work. Keep going!
As for pretending, don’t! If you feel like going through the motions is “pretending” then don’t. I would suggest that you still attend services. Your open mind (which is all I’ll ever ask for), will help you here. Keep it.
As for Pascal, it seems like we’re no longer dealing with him. It seems like he kept things simple for a reason. To deal more with agnostics rather than aethiests. For someone who needs to have all ends convered his wager is too simple in that it leaves too much in the way of criticisms out of it.
No one is saying that you having anything against Catholicism. We know that your not an embittered angry aethiest who refuses to believe in God. Rather that you have just yet to meet him. So you don’t need to worry about anyone here getting hurt feelings by anything you said or argue.
As for saying “if God wants to talk to me so much he can come right over here and say it to my face” (paraphrased), well maybe he will and maybe he won’t. That just kind of reminds me of the story I was told once during mass. (continue)

 

[RedSoxFan]

A devout Catholic was sitting on top of a house during a flood. (It would seem he did, indeed, have insurance.)
During the storm the water was getting higher and a neighbor said “hop into my row boat and get in to safety!” “No, I don’t need to! God will save me!” So, the neighbor moved on.
He sat around for a while and the water got higher. This time the local police came by on a bigger motor boat. They yelled over “Get into the boat and we’ll save you!” “No thanks! God will save me!” And the police had other people to save and went on.
Finally the water was getting so high that he was almost underwater and a helicopter came to rescue him. They tried to get him to get on and again “No thanks! God will save me!” They went along to save others.
The Catholic died in the flood and went to heaven. Looking up to God he asked “why didn’t you save me?” God looked amused and said “what are you talking about? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!” Good Luck!

 

[RedSoxFan]

RedSoxFan;2457783:

To return the favor and provoke Catholics, you have to go where Catholics are. I don’t seem to have the knack to get banned, which is a crying shame. What do I have to do to finally get kicked out?

To return the favor? LOL your too much entertainment to get banned. Sorry!

 

[Mirdath]

Valhalla? Somehow I doubt that Valhalla was real that you would be going there anyways. Though I could be wrong about this; your too much of a thinker to be a bloodlust filled, great viking warrior. Though without having met you I am only taking a guess.

Your average berserker could probably snap me in two with his little toes.

As for changing your life for Catholicism, which can be inconvienent, it has been shown on a recent episode of the Stephen Colbert show, that religion is one of the two things that makes people truly happy. That was comming from the Harvard professor who wrote the book, not Mr. Colbert. Though the burning point in your noggin right now is “HOW DO I KNOW WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE!!!” That is the toughest question of all.

I’m a fan, though I haven’t seen that episode. What’s the other?

I could easily give you the answer but you would have no reason to accept my word for it. I could say that I’ll pray for you, but that just seems to tick off aethists (some).

Go right ahead and pray! I figure it can’t hurt anything if God is good, neutral, or nonexistent, and if it attracts the attention of a malevolent deity to me, well, I was screwed eventually anyway

Anything that has happend in my life like the miracle I mentioned would not help you out in the slightest. Though it would have if you were there. My advice then becomes that you must search out every possible avenue to finding out about God. I think you might already be doing this from what you say, but this is something that takes a lifetime to do. I’m convinced it will eventually lead you back to Catholicism.

Must? How can attainment of faith be a responsibility of those who lack it? I thought faith is supposed to be a gift from God, not a quest to repair one’s own deficiencies; and viewing it as the latter seems to me to be entirely futile.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Your average berserker could probably snap me in two with his little toes.

I’m a fan, though I haven’t seen that episode. What’s the other?

Go right ahead and pray! I figure it can’t hurt anything if God is good, neutral, or nonexistent, and if it attracts the attention of a malevolent deity to me, well, I was screwed eventually anyway

Must? How can attainment of faith be a responsibility of those who lack it? I thought faith is supposed to be a gift from God, not a quest to repair one’s own deficiencies; and viewing it as the latter seems to me to be entirely futile.

OK I’ll pray for you then. “Must”. If the situation was reversed I would consider it a must. The thought of missing out on the afterlife (even the slightest possibility that there was one) would be enough for me to search the rest of my life for it. Faith can be a gift from God. Though it could be you haven’t opened the package yet. Or perhaps that package might have got sent to a neighbor. In that case go next door and get it. It was meant for you anyways.

 

[pjn6444]

Original Sin has blinded us to “logic”. There are things all around that point to a Creator. But to the question “how can atheists still be atheists with miracles around” and the answer is easily. Consider the most obvious example. Jesus Christ came to earth performed miracles and rose from the dead, and people still did not believe. If people could not believe that, I can see how they can not believe anything else.

 

[Mirdath]

“Must”. If the situation was reversed I would consider it a must. The thought of missing out on the afterlife (even the slightest possibility that there was one) would be enough for me to search the rest of my life for it.

I have only one reason to want a life longer than the one I am allotted, and that isn’t God (Nepenthe’s blushing right now)

Beyond that, the idea of life without end is something I find outright terrifying. Sure, there’s curiosity, but eventually even that will be exhausted. And in your idea of heaven or hell, how much is there to be curious about? Eternal ennui is not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

Faith can be a gift from God. Though it could be you haven’t opened the package yet. Or perhaps that package might have got sent to a neighbor. In that case go next door and get it. It was meant for you anyways.

How can I have faith, if it is not granted by God – and addressed properly (ie, to me, and not to ‘occupant’, like all these coupons and AOL discs)? I don’t see any other possible way to get it.