Miracles, Athiests & Agnostics

[RedSoxFan]

I have only one reason to want a life longer than the one I am allotted, and that isn’t God (Nepenthe’s blushing right now)

Beyond that, the idea of life without end is something I find outright terrifying. Sure, there’s curiosity, but eventually even that will be exhausted. And in your idea of heaven or hell, how much is there to be curious about? Eternal ennui is not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

How can I have faith, if it is not granted by God – and addressed properly (ie, to me, and not to ‘occupant’, like all these coupons and AOL discs)? I don’t see any other possible way to get it.

Very interesting. The thought of life without end has occured to me before. I doubt that we would ever get tired of the afterlife. I feel like there would be the “rest” (for lack of a better word) that we need. I can’t really picture myself sitting around playing a harp for eternity. That wouldn’t be the heaven for me and I’m sure God would politely ask me to stop. As for what I picture heaven to be like I don’t have many pre-concieved notions.
Stephen King’s “Dark Tower” series has kind of been the ideal for me as strange as that sounds. The hero finally gets to the tower and chants the names of those who have gone on before him. And then the reader can choose to go on and read what’s inside. King advises not to. That’s kind of like me with heaven. Any description wouldn’t do it justice. It would be kind of ironically funny if it was lame. For about 5 minutes. Though I can’t picture it to be that way. The idea of hell and not getting into heaven is the greatest fear that anyone could have. One could only guess at what that would entail. The greeks might have come up with a decent concept of hell though I think that falls short too.

As to how can one have faith if it is not from God? People of all religions have faith, though not all relgions are legitimate. Yet, their adherents have faith nontheless. It would keep in line with my personal thought of free will that faith can be given by God, or chosen. I’ve always had it, (even before the miracle) so it’s tough for me to imagine otherwise.
Knowing your nature from these short messages I can pretty much gaurentee you that when you are no longer curious you’ll have the answers your looking for. Not until then.

 

[Mirdath]

Knowing your nature from these short messages I can pretty much gaurentee you that when you are no longer curious you’ll have the answers your looking for. Not until then.

Yep, when I’m dead I’ll either know for sure or not care at all – just like you!

 

[The_Truthinator]

These dialogues are always interesting to me. I grew up (or rather, “am growing up,” considering my age) in a religious environment. I don’t know, however, what I would have said I was for the last 12 years of my life, though: Perhaps a very nihilistic theist, if that makes sense. After my conversion roughly a year ago, I got a wake up call. Being brought up in a Baptist church, I didn’t hear much about “miracles” in the modern day, when made me ever the more skeptical about the stories I heard them preaching on from the Bible. Why the sudden halt?

It wasn’t until I started coming in the evenings, when the junior pastor, a very cool, much younger guy, spoke, that I started to hear some stuff that really took my breath away. One time he told us of two missionary friends stationed in a tribe in Africa. The village where they were located was suffering a drought. Knowing the missionaries were supposed to represent a new God, the people, after seeing the futility of their own prayers, turned to them. “Pray for rain,” they said. So, hesitantly, that’s what they did. It began raining the next day, and by the time it stopped, their formerly dry wells had an abudance of water. They ended up celebrating with a huge bonfire after the rain had stopped, and festivities. However, the Guru, their spiritual leader, was apalled and accused the missionaries of leading the people astray. Soot from the fire blinded him that very night, and he reported the next day a vision in his sleep of a “man in white” who commanded him to ask Junior (the missionaries’ names weren’t to be revealed) to pray for him. Unsure of his capabilities, Junior hesitated, but the Guru insisted, “The man in white said it had to be you!” So he did, and he could see again! Whether it was over night, or instantly, I can’t recall. In either case, I was amazed to hear of their success in that area due to this bizarre string of events.

The last tale I heard came from a letter Aarron (the junior pastor) and his wife received from another friend of theirs stationed in Africa. This friend told of a woman raped as a young teenager, who came to a missionary clinic set up at the time asking for an abortion pill. Immediately, the Christians at the clinic began sharing with the young girl about the Love and Mercy of Christ, and she reconsidered, sparing her unborn child. By the time her child, Solomon, grew to his preteenage years, she had totally renounced her Muslim-African tribal religion, refusing to have Christ-And. Her mother, however, remained a very devout Muslim. Since the birth of Solomon, she’d lost two other children (in birth or in sickness), and it was about this time that her son contracted a terrible sickness that ultimately claimed his life. The body was examined by the villages “doctors,” who checked pulse and breathing, then by the spiritual leaders. Burial preparations began, and the weeping mother was left with her deceased son, her mother, and a few other villagers. Looking at her mother she asked, suddenly gaining hope from a story she remembered, “May I pray for him in the Name of Jesus?” Her mother, not understanding entirely, agreed. It was not odd to add different aspects of tribal religions to the Islamic faith there, and so she must’ve not thought much of it, or else be ignorant. The mother knelt down and prayed, “In the Name of Jesus, get up!” Nothing. She did so again, her voice raised. Once more, there was no response. A third time she cried, “In the Name of Jesus, get up!” Solomon did just that! Everyone present stared, trying to make something of it. The spiritual leaders and doctors were perplexed, and the former began grinding holy books and putting them in water for Solomon to drink. His mother refused it. Different explanations were offered, none which satisfied Solomon’s mother, who remained thoroughly convinced that it had been Christ’s hand, and his alone, that’s raised her son. The two missionary friends writing the letter said they were blessed enough to come across this woman and hear her story firsthand, from her lips. As she told this story to them, in the corner of the hut which they were in, there slept Solomon.

I thought about these things quite often. I wondered why it was that I heard so much of these others’ faith, and about so many miracles occurring as a result, in these distant places, but never here. It dawned on me that Christianity had lost its oddity here, and people their faith. I always knew that the Catholic Faith periodically claimed to see apparitions of Jesus and Mary, but I’d never actually looked into it.

 

[The_Truthinator]

I recently looked into the Fatima Apparition. In said event, three young shepherd children were entrusted three secrets by the Mother of God, witnessing her presence periodically in the same general area. They were jailed and interrogated, in order that the secrets be extracted of them. They refused. They predicted their own deaths to their mother, as well as a miracle that was to occur “so that all may believe.” They reported this openly, and on October 13, 1917, 70,000 people were gathered together to see the fulfillment of their prophecy. It was raining very hard that day when all of a sudden, the rain stopped, the clouds parted, and the sun was visible as a rotating disc that gave off an array of colors as it “danced” in the sky, detaching itself apparently and zigzagging towards the earth. By the end of the event, the ground and clothes of the people were dry. The event was testified to by the crowd, by such an overwhelming number that scientists could only offer the possibility of a mass hallucination or admit its authenticity.

While it is granted, all of these things, and other such events (as the list goes on and on) could have alternative explanations, such happenings are admittedly rather extraordinary, and the evidence for the authenticity of many of them, such as the last, can be quite abundant. I think they do in themselves present quite a compelling case, especially when viewed together. It gives everyone, theists, atheists, and agnostics, something to contemplate and dwell on, most certainly.

That’s for sure.

(If my grammar was detestable, it’s because it’s very early and I’m rather tired. Forgive me for that!)

 

[RedSoxFan]

Yep, when I’m dead I’ll either know for sure or not care at all – just like you!

Mirdath just remember one thing. I want two ice cubes and a blue parasol with my coke!

 

[whatever]

whatever;2459186:

To return the favor? LOL your too much entertainment to get banned. Sorry!

My idea of entertainment is “Louis CK learns about the Catholic Church” as found on youtube.

One way or the other, I doubt I’ll be back anytime soon. :tiphat:

 

[RedSoxFan]

RedSoxFan;2462031:

My idea of entertainment is “Louis CK learns about the Catholic Church” as found on youtube.

One way or the other, I doubt I’ll be back anytime soon. :tiphat:

If only Youtube wasn’t banned on this YMCA computer!!! Dang it.

<walking down a dark street in the pouring rain, our hero falls to his knees, rips open his shirt and beats his chest screaming “NOOOO!!! Whatever come back!!!”>

Well good luck to you then. I’ll miss our conversations.

 

[AnubistheJackal]

Atheists & Agnostics, what are your thoughts on proven miracles?

What is your opinion of alleged miracles imparted upon those who recognize a god other than your own?

The pertinent presupposition is that if “proven miracles” evidence the existence of your god, so too they evidence the existence of other gods when, and where they occur.

 

[christcnection1]

What is your opinion of alleged miracles imparted upon those who recognize a god other than your own?

The pertinent presupposition is that if “proven miracles” evidence the existence of your god, so too they evidence the existence of other gods when, and where they occur.

Well, for starters, we would not deny the possibility of supernatural phenomena in other religions. We recognize the occult as a legitimate spiritual force; however, we believe it’s of demonic origen. Therefore, any involvement in occult practices is considered a grave matter.

When it comes to other religions, we also believe that “miraculous” events are possible. Moreover, because we also believe in demonic forces, the Church always considers supernatural phenomena (particularly within our Church) with great caution.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NIV) “And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.”

For example: The majority of “Marian Apparitions” were either considered of natural origen, hoaxes, or not decided on. There are many examples of other types of miracles.

However, I do not believe that the Church has officially recogized all Non-Christian supernatural events as being directly from Satanic forces. We simply err on the side of extreme caution.

That being said, there is not one religion or worldview in the world which has the degree and number of supernatural events as Catholic Christianity. I believe this would be a fairly easy case to make, though impossible to fully measure.

As a former Atheist, to Agnostic, to universal Theist, to Evangelical Protestant, to Catholic, I have had many powerful supernatural experiences. Recently I finished a short book on my miraculous conversion story. It’s very easy to read and entertaining. I would be happy to send you, or anyone else a free copy.

I hope that helps!

Peace,
JB

 

[AnubistheJackal]

“Well, for starters, we would not deny the possibility of supernatural phenomena in other religions. We recognize the occult as a legitimate spiritual force; however, we believe it’s of demonic origen. Therefore, any involvement in occult practices is considered a grave matter”

Fascinating.

When a Catholic woman in San Diego is cured of terminal cancer we praise Jesus for imparting said miracle. When the same thing occurs in Bombay demons are to blame.

The most rational position is simply to recognize there are still many events/phenomena that current science is unable to explain in naturalistic terms.

“That being said, there is not one religion or worldview in the world which has the degree and number of supernatural events as Catholic Christianity. I believe this would be a fairly easy case to make, though impossible to fully measure.”

This is a baseless statement. I do doubt you’ll be able to produce an objective study that says any such thing.

“As a former Atheist, to Agnostic, to universal Theist, to Evangelical Protestant, to Catholic, I have had many powerful supernatural experiences.”

I believe that you believe your experiences were supernatural. I also believe Mormons, Muslims, Hindis, etc., believe their own experiences to be equally as valid and supernatural.

 

[KarenNC]

That being said, there is not one religion or worldview in the world which has the degree and number of supernatural events as Catholic Christianity. I believe this would be a fairly easy case to make, though impossible to fully measure.

At what point in its history did the Catholic Church amass enough supernatural events to be considered a valid religion? How much longer did it take to amass enough to be the One True Religion?

In what way would it be “a fairly easy case to make” if it is “impossible to measure?” Upon what objective data would you build your case?

 

[christcnection1]

At what point in its history did the Catholic Church amass enough supernatural events to be considered a valid religion? How much longer did it take to amass enough to be the One True Religion?

In what way would it be “a fairly easy case to make” if it is “impossible to measure?” Upon what objective data would you build your case?

Hehe… I am really not here for an argument KarenNC, but I do appreciate your sincere inquiry.

For starters, supernatural phenomena is not criteria for a religion to be valid. Most of the major religions have few or no regular supernatural manifestations. In my opinion, this in itself *is **not *reason to reject them.

Although I often diverge with other religions in relation to their belief system(s), there are dimensions to these faiths that I respect. In a real sense, I believe we are all in this together. Therefore, it’s worthwhile to have a frank and open conversation with all peoples. KarenNC, I respect the fact that you are willing to dialogue here.

I do not consider the Catholic Church the “One True Religion” on the basis of miracles. For me personally, this is a factor; however, it is tertiary at best. I apologize if I poorly communicated my point and you got that impression; this was not my intention. As a Catholic Christian, I remain steadfast in my convictions, but acknowledge that there is something to be learned in nearly any worldview.

For me, it would be easy to make a case for supernatural phenomena on several levels. However, to the atheist, agnostic, and skeptic, they will likely be inclined to start with the premise that miracles do not exist. The kind of “evidence” they demand (if they are actually open to it) is quite rare. Perhaps, in part, this has to do with their presupposition that miracles are hoaxes at best. “Soft-agnostics” tend to be more open-minded when it comes to these issues.

Unlike natural phenomena which can be measured scientifically, supernatural phenomena cannot be measured to the same degree. This should not be a surprise, however, so providing the type of “objective” qualities the skeptic is looking for will be highly improbable. This is one of the reasons it would be difficult to build a case in the traditional sense. However, it would not be difficult to find credible scientists who believe Catholic miracles are genuine events.

In the realm of Christendom, what does happen, is that the very skeptics who claim to deny miracles, sometimes experience an extraordinary event at some point in their lives. Such an event may trigger a spiritual awareness, foster an openness, and lead them to cast doubt their previous worldview.

Although I’ve only been a Christian for a brief period of time, I have encountered a number of former atheists, agnostics, and/or skeptics who have had extraordinary experiences. It’s not uncommon to find highly-educated, rational, and balanced individuals who claim to have experienced something miraculous.

As a former nonbeliever, I thoroughly rejected the possibility of miracles. To me, all religion, especially Christianity was a pile of excrement. Unfortunately, it would be impossible for me to adequately share my story on this forum. Again, I would like to offer you a free short book on my journey. You have nothing to lose, and you may just find it very entertaining.

I would be happy to discuss this issue or any other issue further, if you please.

Peace,
JB

 

[KarenNC]

I am resurrecting this thread at the direct request of JB that I answer his last post, since I usually don’t go back weeks for a thread. Sorry that it slipped by–Karen

**For starters, supernatural phenomena is not criteria for a religion to be valid. Most of the major religions have few or no regular supernatural manifestations. In my opinion, this in itself *is **not *reason to reject them. **

On what do you base the statement that “most of the major religions have few or no regular supernatural manifestations”?

**For me, it would be easy to make a case for supernatural phenomena on several levels. However, to the atheist, agnostic, and skeptic, they will likely be inclined to start with the premise that miracles do not exist. The kind of “evidence” they demand (if they are actually open to it) is quite rare. Perhaps, in part, this has to do with their presupposition that miracles are hoaxes at best. “Soft-agnostics” tend to be more open-minded when it comes to these issues.

Unlike natural phenomena which can be measured scientifically, supernatural phenomena cannot be measured to the same degree. This should not be a surprise, however, so providing the type of “objective” qualities the skeptic is looking for will be highly improbable. This is one of the reasons it would be difficult to build a case in the traditional sense. However, it would not be difficult to find credible scientists who believe Catholic miracles are genuine events. **

Then I am somewhat confused as to why you said that it would be a “fairly easy case to make” if you do not believe it would actually be so. It is either objectively measurable or not, easy to build a credible case or not. Any case one might try to make is fairly useless unless both parties agree on validity of the criteria. At minimum you would have to determine exactly what qualifies as a “miracle,” an objective ranking system that is not dependent on any particular theology, etc.

**In the realm of Christendom, what does happen, is that the very skeptics who claim to deny miracles, sometimes experience an extraordinary event at some point in their lives. Such an event may trigger a spiritual awareness, foster an openness, and lead them to cast doubt their previous worldview.

Although I’ve only been a Christian for a brief period of time, I have encountered a number of former atheists, agnostics, and/or skeptics who have had extraordinary experiences. It’s not uncommon to find highly-educated, rational, and balanced individuals who claim to have experienced something miraculous.
**

Actually, it is not uncommon to “find highly-educated, rational, and balanced individuals who claim to have experienced something miraculous” in any religion.

It is precisely because events classed as “miracles” cannot be measured or compared quantitatively or qualitatively in any religion or between religions that to talk of “degree and number” is irrelevant. It is similar to personal revelation—unless it is made directly to you, you must simply choose to either accept it on faith or not. There is no way to “prove” it. It is also not uniquely Christian and therefore I see no reason that it should be considered proof of the superiority of either Catholicism or Christianity in general.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t get atheists. Look around you and tell me how can there not be a God?

If I’m standing in the Sudan or Treblinka, I might say “Look around you and tell me how can there be a God?”

 

[christcnection1]

I am resurrecting this thread at the direct request of JB that I answer his last post, since I usually don’t go back weeks for a thread. Sorry that it slipped by–Karen

Oh… no problem I was just curious your thoughts because you seem like a reasonable and intelligent person.

When it comes to this topic, neither of us can escape the reality of basing our beliefs on faith in some measure.

On what do you base the statement that “most of the major religions have few or no regular supernatural manifestations”?

After years of looking into miraculous phenomena, I have yet to come across a religion or spirituality with as many supernatural events. I’m not saying they don’t happen. On the contrary, they do. However, based on my research, nothing comes close to Catholic Christianity.

I don’t know of any other religion that has as many apparitions or miraculous healings. I don’t believe other religions have Eucharistics miracles, biolocation, teleportation, muliplication of food, stigmata, the gift of tongues, and many other things.

I could very well be wrong, and I would be open to any statistical information or other information you know of.

Then I am somewhat confused as to why you said that it would be a “fairly easy case to make” if you do not believe it would actually be so. It is either objectively measurable or not, easy to build a credible case or not. Any case one might try to make is fairly useless unless both parties agree on validity of the criteria. At minimum you would have to determine exactly what qualifies as a “miracle,” an objective ranking system that is not dependent on any particular theology, etc.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I think it would an easy case to make for those willing to believe it. Those who have predetermined that it can’t happen, will be unwilling to accept objective evidence or not.

Actually, it is not uncommon to “find highly-educated, rational, and balanced individuals who claim to have experienced something miraculous” in any religion.

I agree.

It is precisely because events classed as “miracles” cannot be measured or compared quantitatively or qualitatively in any religion or between religions that to talk of “degree and number” is irrelevant. It is similar to personal revelation—unless it is made directly to you, you must simply choose to either accept it on faith or not. There is no way to “prove” it. It is also not uniquely Christian and therefore I see no reason that it should be considered proof of the superiority of either Catholicism or Christianity in general

I have personally experienced many miracles. This is largely why I have converted from atheism to Catholicism (with many steps in between).

Although miracles are not uniquely Christian, that doesn’t mean they can’t be useful in knowing truth. Is this what you believe?

When Jesus did miracles, at times He encouraged people to embrace His message on the basis of miracles. I’m sure He preferred that they would believe without doing miracles, but this is what He did nonetheless.

Question…

Let’s say someone had a profound message for you to hear. You were somewhat open, but skeptical. If that same person raised one of your deceased family members to life, would you be more inclined to embrace the message?

I think most people would.

If there is any final proof of Christianity, it is that the Catholic Church is the largest, oldest, and most influential institution in the world. To many people, this is a miracles in itself. Although individuals in the Church have committed terrible atrocities (which was foretold), there is no institution as dedicated as serving the poor and lowly.

To compare the good versus the bad is like comparing a grain of sand to a bowling ball. Furthermore, any act of evil by a “Christian” is a perversion of what Christ (and His Church) taught.

How many other “Mother Theresa’s” are there in other religions? I can’t think of one with her kind of dedication. Gandhi comes to mind, but his mission was a little different. She is one example among perhaps thousands. The miracle of seeing sacrificial love is probably the most powerful supernatural act.

At the end of the day, however, the Church is not a showcase for Saints, but a hospital for sinners.

Any worldview you believe, no matter what is it, or how much evidence there seems to be for it, does come down to faith. Do we agree on this point?

Karen, what things make it difficult for you to accept a Christian worldview?

Have a peaceful day…

JB

 

[KarenNC]

**When it comes to this topic, neither of us can escape the reality of basing our beliefs on faith in some measure. **

All belief ultimately comes down to faith as it cannot be objectively proven or disproven.

**After years of looking into miraculous phenomena, I have yet to come across a religion or spirituality with as many supernatural events. I’m not saying they don’t happen. On the contrary, they do. However, based on my research, nothing comes close to Catholic Christianity.

I don’t know of any other religion that has as many apparitions or miraculous healings. I don’t believe other religions have Eucharistics miracles, biolocation, teleportation, muliplication of food, stigmata, the gift of tongues, and many other things.

I could very well be wrong, and I would be open to any statistical information or other information you know of. **

Let’s see…would one expect Eucharistic miracles from a religion that did not practice theophagy? Stigmata from a religion whose God was not crucified?

hinduismtoday.com/archives/1995/12/15_miracles.shtml

en.allexperts.com/q/Hindus-946/Miracles-Krishna.htm

buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd63.htm

realsikhism.com/miracles/index.html

The Egyptian, Greek and Roman sacred stories are full of miracles.

If I did present evidence that religion d over there had 1,534,999 miraculous healings and appartions while the Catholic Church only had 1,534,995, would you switch your allegiance? What if that other religion had only had 1,534,998? Would you keep a running tally so that you know which one is appropriate to believe in today? How would you know that you had an absolutely accurate count and didn’t miss something miraculous that happened to someone who chose not to share it or just didn’t make the news in your area? Who determines exactly what qualifies as “miraculous” enough?

If it would not alter your belief, then the numbers are irrelevant.

**Perhaps you misunderstood me. I think it would an easy case to make for those willing to believe it. Those who have predetermined that it can’t happen, will be unwilling to accept objective evidence or not. **

If one is predisposed to believe something, then, yes, certainly, it would be easy to make a case for it.

**I have personally experienced many miracles. This is largely why I have converted from atheism to Catholicism (with many steps in between).

Although miracles are not uniquely Christian, that doesn’t mean they can’t be useful in knowing truth. Is this what you believe?**

I believe that exactly because they are not uniquely Christian, they are not useful in showing that Christianity is unique among religions.

**Let’s say someone had a profound message for you to hear. You were somewhat open, but skeptical. If that same person raised one of your deceased family members to life, would you be more inclined to embrace the message?

I think most people would.**

Perhaps they would. Personally, I would never hear the message because I would get the heck out of Dodge as quickly as possible at the first hint of necromancy because I have no desire to be part of such.

**If there is any final proof of Christianity, it is that the Catholic Church is the largest, oldest, and most influential institution in the world. **

See above about arguments based on numbers. Unless you are using the numbers as the basis for your faith, they are irrelevant. Either your religion and your God are real or are not, whether 5 people or 5 million follow it. There were many centuries when the Catholic Church was not the “largest, oldest and most influential.” Was this proof that Christianity was not valid at that time?

It boils down to the question of whether you believe your God would actually exist as described, even if no one on earth believed in Him. If not, then it would seem that you are then saying He is a product of human belief in Him, not an entity that exists independently of humanity.

Any worldview you believe, no matter what is it, or how much evidence there seems to be for it, does come down to faith. Do we agree on this point?

In many ways, yes. It comes down to personal experience.

Karen, what things make it difficult for you to accept a Christian worldview?

I have seen no compelling evidence for the uniqueness of the Christian God as compared to the Gods of other peoples throughout human history. I am an a-monotheist, not an a-theist.

 

[Aleii]

If there is any final proof of Christianity, it is that the Catholic Church is the largest, oldest, and most influential institution in the world.

History shows that a large amount of people believing something can easily be wrong. As an aside, you can also turn that statement around and say that the majority of the world isn’t Catholic or Christian. I don’t know where you get oldest from; there are other religions older than Catholicism. As far as influence, the US is the most influential country in the world, and look how many times it has been wrong. I don’t really see these things as proof.

 

[christcnection1]

KarenNC:

All belief ultimately comes down to faith as it cannot be objectively proven or disproven.

I suppose it’s likely we will all find out after we die.

Let’s see…would one expect Eucharistic miracles from a religion that did not practice theophagy? Stigmata from a religion whose God was not crucified?

I think you would have a real argument if profound supernatural occurences happened regularly in other religions.

Do you believe there is any significance to miracles whatsoever? If they cannot be helpful in finding truth in any measure, are they then meaningless?

If I did present evidence that religion d over there had 1,534,999 miraculous healings and appartions while the Catholic Church only had 1,534,995, would you switch your allegiance? What if that other religion had only had 1,534,998? Would you keep a running tally so that you know which one is appropriate to believe in today? How would you know that you had an absolutely accurate count and didn’t miss something miraculous that happened to someone who chose not to share it or just didn’t make the news in your area? Who determines exactly what qualifies as “miraculous” enough?

If the numbers were that close, I would not give allegiance to any religion; however, I might believe that “God” was some kind of deceiver.

Again, miracles are of tertiary importance to me, at best.

If one is predisposed to believe something, then, yes, certainly, it would be easy to make a case for it.

What makes a person predisposed to something? I think this question may remain a mystery…

Honestly, the very last religion I would have considered is Catholicism. When I was an atheist, nearly everything about it sickened me. Therefore, it’s likely it was the religion/worldview I was least “predisposed” to.

I believe that exactly because they are not uniquely Christian, they are not useful in showing that Christianity is unique among religions.

Well, this of course assumes your (and our) understanding of Christianity is correctly interpreted. It’s not unreasonable to believe the God of the Bible is capable to working uniquely through history (and within other religions) to bring about a grand design.

We also believe there is a devil running around the world with the title of “father of all lies.” We believe it’s also at work in some way.

Perhaps they would. Personally, I would never hear the message because I would get the heck out of Dodge as quickly as possible at the first hint of necromancy because I have no desire to be part of such.

Necromancy… How does this have to do with anything I was asking?? If a person is raised from the dead they are no longer dead; they are living.

See above about arguments based on numbers. Unless you are using the numbers as the basis for your faith, they are irrelevant. Either your religion and your God are real or are not, whether 5 people or 5 million follow it. There were many centuries when the Catholic Church was not the “largest, oldest and most influential.” Was this proof that Christianity was not valid at that time?

If this “proof” was raised in the 4th century it would not be a valid argument for me. However, because it holds true now, it’s one of several hundreds of arguments to suggest the Catholic Christianity is the most reasonable worldview to me.

If the Catholic Church completely “falls,” I will not be part of a fringe remnant, though I would consider remaining a Christian.

It boils down to the question of whether you believe your God would actually exist as described, even if no one on earth believed in Him. If not, then it would seem that you are then saying He is a product of human belief in Him, not an entity that exists independently of humanity.

You know this is not what we believe. Nor was I suggesting that.

In many ways, yes. It comes down to personal experience.

If I had different experiences, I would have happily never embraced a Christian worldview. Yes, we agree.

I have seen no compelling evidence for the uniqueness of the Christian God as compared to the Gods of other peoples throughout human history. I am an a-monotheist, not an a-theist

.
Even the skeptics, atheists, and agnostics see the uniqueness of Jesus Christ or they have spent (or be spending) so much time debunking His exclusive claims, His resurrection from the dead, and His very existence in history.

If you cannot see anything unique about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the Catholic Church, this conversation was not reasonable to start with.

I have an extraordinarily difficult time you are earnestly seeking truth; however, I am not judging you. Karen, I wish you the best on your journey. I hope to see you on the other side.

JB

 

[KarenNC]

**I think you would have a real argument if profound supernatural occurences happened regularly in other religions. **

The followers of those other religions certainly seem to think it does.

Do you believe there is any significance to miracles whatsoever? If they cannot be helpful in finding truth in any measure, are they then meaningless?

Do I believe that the Gods are capable of doing things that are outside the abilities of humans to reproduce and that They may choose to do so on occasion? Yes, I do.

Well, this of course assumes your (and our) understanding of Christianity is correctly interpreted. It’s not unreasonable to believe the God of the Bible is capable to working uniquely through history (and within other religions) to bring about a grand design.

Perhaps. As I said, I have yet to see any compelling evidence that shows that He is any different than any other God.

**We also believe there is a devil running around the world with the title of “father of all lies.” We believe it’s also at work in some way. **

As someone once said, “just because it’s sacred, doesn’t mean we humans have any business inviting it in and letting it make our decisions for us without applying a moral test to our acts. Just because it’s a god doesn’t mean it’s right, or just, or kind… we are responsible for the gods we choose to worship.” - Cat Chapin-Bishop

**If this “proof” was raised in the 4th century it would not be a valid argument for me. However, because it holds true now, it’s one of several hundreds of arguments to suggest the Catholic Christianity is the most reasonable worldview to me. **

If it was not a valid argument for Christianity in the 4th century, why is it a valid argument against any other religion?

**You know this is not what we believe. Nor was I suggesting that. **

I certainly know that that is not what Christianity teaches. Given the frequency with which I encounter arguments based on numbers, I am not sure that that is not what many Christians seem to actually believe.

**Even the skeptics, atheists, and agnostics see the uniqueness of Jesus Christ or they have spent (or be spending) so much time debunking His exclusive claims, His resurrection from the dead, and His very existence in history. **

Not sure what you are getting at here. Do you mean “would not have spent”? Why? Christians spend a great deal of time working to debunk the claims of religions that they do not believe to be either true or unique. Is that fact that they seek to debunk them proof of their validity?

**If you cannot see anything unique about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the Catholic Church, this conversation was not reasonable to start with. **

Oh, well. Shame, really.

I have an extraordinarily difficult time you are earnestly seeking truth

Why? Because I have found a different answer than yours?

**Karen, I wish you the best on your journey. I hope to see you on the other side. **

Thanks.

 

[Ahimsa]

If you cannot see anything unique about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the Catholic Church, this conversation was not reasonable to start with.

How do you define “unique”? In one sense, every religion is unique, in the sense that it teaches beliefs and practices that are not found in other religions, or at least are communicated differently than they are communicated in other religions.