Miracles by Faith (only) question

[ChrisCath]

If I understand things, Mark 5:36 (among others) is saying miracles require (only) a (strong) faith. Certainly the Haydock commentary suggests such.

Why wouldn’t salvation/justification qualify as such a miracle?

Trying to tackle this backdoor to a “faith alone” understanding.

 

[PJM]

=ChrisCath;8894855]If I understand things, Mark 5:36 (among others) is saying miracles require (only) a (strong) faith. Certainly the Haydock commentary suggests such.

Why wouldn’t salvation/justification qualify as such a miracle?

Trying to tackle this backdoor to a “faith alone” understanding.

In attempting to try to understand the bile; without a God provided guide; is coom0n today and the evidence that it does not work; or works very poorly is evifdent in the number of different sets of faith believes from ONLY ONE BIBLE.

One key; and INFALLIBLE KEY AT That for correct understanding of what is read is that NEVER-EVER can one part of the bible contradict another sections, thus voiding one of them out:

That said:

SALVATION MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS
It always and every time begins by God imitative of offering GRACE; the First key element

Rom.3: 24 “they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, “

If the Grace is accepted and correctly applied this leads to Faith; the next key element”

Rom.5:1-2 “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God.”

Rom.1: 17 “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.”

Next are a SERIES of Full and Complete Obedience ISSUES:
The Commandments: Mt.17:19 And Know my friends that the 10 are categories of sin: not the entire list.

To the CC and the Pope and Magesterium:

2 John 8-9 Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son

John 5: 37 “; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men. [Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

Eph.1 :13 to 14 “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Then there is the issue of Good Works and Christy that you point out:
We also see when all is said and done on Judgment day (Matt 25), those who will be saved are ONLY those who can answer yes to the series of questions. [NO; NOT ONLY BUT ONE OF THE CRITICAL COMPONENTS…PJM] Did you feed me when I was hungry, clothe me when I was naked, visit me in prison, or when I was sick, invite me in when I was a stranger…etc, These questions were not a matter of simple belief, but of works.

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

And let us NOT forget the Forgiveness of SINS which CAN ONLY happen in the manner Jesus Himself gives to all of humanity as an OFFER through the Sacrament of Confession. ANYONE who dies with Unconfessed; Unforgiven Mortal sins; DOOMS themselves to Hell for all eternity.
As

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal

John.20 Verses 20 to 23" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

Each and EVERY ONE of the COMMANDS MUST BE Fulfilled and maintained in our lives IF we are to attain our own salvation.

The thief on the cross is often brought up as an example of simply calling on the name of Jesus. What they might miss is the fact he confesses his sins, defends Christ from the verbal attack of the other thief, and then asks Christ into his heart…no doubt Christ is Mercy and knows our heart well enough to know our sincerity and can distinguish between true love & repentance vs. fear of judgment.

Jesus Himself commands that Baptism is a REQUIREMENT for our salvation. This “good” Thief earned and was granted by Jesus Baptism of Desire: One of the three possible forms God accepts.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[COPLAND_3]

Some passages in the Bible, when taken all by themselves without the rest of Scripture, can appear to suggest some things based upon various formulas. You can go through the Bible and pick some passages that suggest only baptism is sufficient. Some passages appear to suggest only repentance is necessary. Some passages appear to suggest simply faith alone, etc etc. No wonder there are so many protestant denominations with so many different formulas for eternal life when it becomes a matter of everyone being subjective. The whole issue of tackling this original question of this thread comes down to Apostolic authority and correct instruction and apostolic Tradition. Separating Scripture from Tradition and leaving everyone to interpret the Scripture and create doctrines on their own leads to chaos like protestantism.

 

[ChrisCath]

As a Catholic, I appreciate the Catholic view of the Bible.

But I’m trying to talk to a Bible Christian about this particular point. I’ve never encountered it before so I’m not sure what approach to take.

So I’m immediately interested in a Bible-only perspective on this unique (to me at least) argument for “faith alone.”

I could address the big-picture “authority,” “salvation” and “tradition/history” arguments, but this seems like too much to tackle with her at this point in time. Start small and work up to the bigger issues. (I understand the limits of proof texting, but I’m just trying to open a door with her.)

Any ideas appreciated.

 

[WesleyF]

If I understand things, Mark 5:36 (among others) is saying miracles require (only) a (strong) faith. Certainly the Haydock commentary suggests such.

Why wouldn’t salvation/justification qualify as such a miracle?

Trying to tackle this backdoor to a “faith alone” understanding.

Salvation is indeed a miracle, but unlike other miracles, it is not a one time event. It is an ongoing process. Jesus raising the daughter of the ruler of the synagogue was a one time event. Besides, there are other instances where works were necessary, along with faith, as I will point out.

Salvation is freedom from sins (Matthew 1:21). We are forgiven for ours sins not because of our works, but because of Christ’s grace which we received through faith. So faith is the beginning of the salvation walk. But, after being forgiven, i.e. “saved”, we then have to bear fruit (John 15:1-8). That’s where works come into the picture. Here’s how I explained it to a friend of mine -

“Christ’s sacrifice on the cross has brought us redemption. Now redemption means that he has paid a price so that we can now be set free from slavery to sins. Salvation is therefore freedom from sins (Matthew 1:21). But now that we have been freed from sins, it is our duty to not sin again. For if we sin again and are enslaved by it, then we shall die spiritually (Rom 6:16). He who sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). Salvation, therefore is not obtained through our own works but it is guarded through our own works. Therefore the Bible says that we have to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). At the same time, God gives us his grace to do this, so that it is really God who is at work in us both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Phil 2:13).”

"There are many warnings given in the Bible to Christians regarding their salvation. For eg. Heb 10:26-30, Rev 2:5, etc. Therefore, we do have to ensure that we be watchful of our deeds and actions.

Faith is man’s first reponse to God. Through faith we become children of God. But after that, we have to bring our faith to completion by our works (James 2:22) and we have to supplement our faith with virtue (2 Peter 1:5).

To summarize, God has given us salvation as a free gift. But it is up to us whether we want to preserve the gift or lose it. Religion, therefore, is good, because it teaches us that we have to submit ourselves to God and follow his precepts, because it is through our obedience that we will purify our souls (1 Peter 1:22) and preserve our salvation."

Now, consider these miracles where faith was brought to completion by works-

1. The woman who touched Jesus’ cloak. She believed that touching Jesus’ cloak would heal her, but merely believing that wasn’t enough. She had to make an effort to go through the crowd that had thronged about Jesus (Mark 5:24).
2. Jesus spat on the ground, made some clay and anointed a blind man’s eyes with the clay. He then proceeded to tell the man to go and wash himself in the pool of Siloam. The man obeyed and went and washed himself and came back seeing. Obviously, the man had faith in Jesus, but if he had not washed himself, the healing would not have taken place. (John 9:6-7)
3. Jesus told Peter to go and cast a hook in the sea and take the first fish, open its mouth and remove the shekel from its mouth to pay the tax (Matthew 17:27). Obviously, Peter believed Jesus, but he nevertheless obeyed him and did what Jesus told him to do.

I could cite many more such examples.

As Catholics, we don’t simply believe in Jesus; we bring our belief in Jesus to completion by our works.