Miracles do Happen and are a problem for the Naturalist

  • Thread starter Thread starter Paddy1989
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
KJW5551 said:
And how about the case above being discussed, Zeitoun? Your argument kind of breaks down in that case, no?
Click to expand...
Sure obviously it’s not true in every case but it’s by far the norm. Miracles just come off so silly when used as an evangelization tool. I would argue if there is a God he doesn’t want you using miracles to gain converts obviously or he would do something miraculous for the whole world. These types of discussion usually end with a thiest frantically searching and pointing to one or two things out of thousands of years and saying “see look you can’t explain that!” It comes off like oh wow the all powerful creator of the universe managed to make a statue cry 50 years ago to 100 people. See what I mean?
 
BoomerangToo said:
They choose not to believe it.
Click to expand...
I think it would be great if something like Fatima were real. It would let us know there is a God and tell us all we need to know about his character. If God can make the sun dance then obviously he can imterject in our world and make things happen. I would say well God that’s a real cool sun dance you did there but how about instead of that, do a miracle where all starving children have food appear on their plates? But alas no…God is too busy shaking the sun and copying images on cloth to feed kids. It’s a ridiculous thing and I think it would serve believers better not to push miracles.
 
I don’t believe in this stuff. I believe there are scientific explanations. Some of course which we don’t know at this point in time. I respect your right to believe in whatever you wish to believe in, though.

I also believe there are a lot of people who will go to extreme lengths to mislead those who wish to believe.
 
Last edited:
NDE’s are different than the “Mary on the Rooftop” type of miracles originally being discussed in this thread. I wholeheartedly believe in NDE’s because I believe in spirituality. I don’t know how one can believe in spirituality of any kind (and in any religion) and not believe in NDE’s.

On the other hand, I find it curious that NDE’s usually follow the vein of whatever religious beliefs the person, to begin with holds. It makes me wonder if it is a level of physical consciousness that we don’t understand. Maybe, maybe not. I am content to say I don’t know. I am also content to believe whatever someone tells me regarding their own NDE, accepting that it will have personal spin on it just like any other personal experience one person may share with another.
 
Last edited:
That only means that spiritual world exists. Miracles could be work of any being with enough amount of power rather than God.
 
The problem here though is that when you say miracles only happen to religious people you need to understand that not all those who experienced miracles were religious and many were non believers and were in fact enemies of the church. It is just that as you would expect if the miracle was genuine it would lead to their conversion meaning they are now religious and in the atheist eyes no longer taken seriously. Many atheists have verified and tried to explain what they witnessed and do so with great confusion, mainly that the mind is not to be underestimated to what it can do and perhaps has sort of psychic abilities. Many miracles I’m sure you agree are fake but this is why thorough investigations are done and modern technology has actually aided in proven how miraculous these events truly are. One is not required to believe in these things but panning them off without even looking does make me suspicious of the naturalist. I mean if there is a natural explanation to medically and scientifically verified miracles doesn’t the atheist want to know what it is?
 
I will ask the question I asked above again. Let’s say the miracles you believe are true. Why doesn’t God stop spending all his time shaking the sun and copying images on cloth and perform a miracle where all the starving children in the world have food appear on their plates?
 
Last edited:
I tend to believe things like stigmata are the result of mental illnesses or just plain old deception, but I think you misunderstood the argument regarding psychosomatic symptoms and placebo effect. This are not psychic abilities or unusual, they were/are studied and pretty much accepted.
We know for a long time the mental state of mind can worsen the symptoms of some illnesses. Or that it can produce such symptoms without any physical disease. Think what happens in the case of Hypochondria or “false pregnancies”.
The same for placebo effect. It is well-known and can explain certain “healings”.
This argument just states that “strong belief” would make some people more vulnerable to this phenomenon.
 
wkj_123 said:
perform a miracle where all the starving children in the world have food appear on their plates?
Click to expand...
It wouldn’t be good in the long run. This is next. " If He can feed them once why can’t He just keep them fed? Why doesn’t He just feed everyone?
 
Benadam said:
It wouldn’t be good in the long run. This is next. " If He can feed them once why can’t He just keep them fed? Why doesn’t He just feed everyone?
Click to expand...
Great question. Your getting closer to understanding how the miracles argument is a bad one. You see we live in a really rough world. Christians saying “hey look at this cool thing that God did” comes off ridiculous. You have starving children, diseases, and all kinds of terrible things, and God is basically standing in the corner doing card tricks its a little silly. If you say God can interact in our world, and chooses to do totally pointless things like Fatima, then what are you trying to prove?
 
wkj_123 said:
God is basically standing in the corner doing card tricks its a little silly. If you say God can interact in our world, and chooses to do totally pointless things like Fatima, then what are you trying to prove?
Click to expand...
It seems that a miracle isn’t really what you want God to do. He needs to fix the world to get on your good side huh?😐
 
Well I would at least say do one or the other. It’s a bad look for God. It’s kind of like God walking into the children’s oncology unit in a hospital and making an image of Mary appear on the wall. Not a good look. But I would settle for a real miracle I guess. One thing I have learned about god that is absolutely true and never changes is that God can only do things that are also things people can fake. Make the sun dance for the whole world? Nope but he can do it for a crowd in a frenzy. Show up on national television and introduce himself? Nope but he can make pictures on cloth real well. I would love a good answer as to why the most powerful being in the world can’t just come out and reveal himself. No tricks just show up.
 
He did kinda show up. He rose from the dead. He did thingts only God could do. They killed Him for claiming equality with God… He brought a few people back from the dead. The thing is, there are people who won’t believe even if they see someone raised from the dead. Another thing to think about; .IGod can do a great miracle that .a multitude witnesses. Awe inspiring and the world is full of wonder sort of thing. At some point it has to end. When it does and the memory is fresh it’s still a wonder of God. God proves his existence but now it’s a memory that requires faith to believe. Eventually we’re in the same place we were beffore. A bunch of people got to see a great work of God but that was a 100 years ago and meh…No matter how great the miracle eventually we will be back to holding on to faith in a tradition that preserves a memory
 
I have heard the arguments atheists have made claiming that stigmata is merely self harm or spawned from mental illness and ones mental state can exaggerate the symptom. That they are perhaps psychosomatic. To claim this however is to be ignorant to the evidence and in the face of medical and scientific evidence for many miracles, the whole mental illness argument is a cop out in these cases. Wounds opening and closing in quick succession at times without a scar and being verified? People experiencing a miraculous event that many times results in healing whether it be of disease or disability. You reduce this to mental illness??? All I know is this, if their abilities are a result of a mental state of mind ill have what they are having. You see by attempting to explain away miracles you seem to agree as you are forced to like any rational person that these events happen but the way in which you explain them away you seem to not even be impressed with these events?
 
If you believe Fatima is pointless then you have missed the point of its message completely. Should God reduce his being to your comprehension of how the world ought to be?
 
Many miracles can explain messages to people in a way they will understand so this may be the case with NDE. The message may be more important than how it is told and done a particular way to fit ones comprehension
 
Why not? I mean you said they can’t all be right. Why can’t they?

Miracles are supernatural happenings that cannot be explained by natural causes. So why can’t they all be right? If it is a miracle, then it is. It is not for us humans to decide. And remember that miracles need not necessarily be from God but the Evil One also can cause miracles, though in a limited extent.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top