Miracles in Protestant denominations

[Johndigger]

So, this question has been bothering me for a few days now. I’m going to present it in a reasonable fashion with my thoughts and then throw it open to the floor.

1. Many Protestants claim to have miraculous events happen in their lives. (I believe this claim is true by the credibility of these people)
2. Miracles inspire greater faith in people and confirms the validity of their own beliefs.
3. Thus, these miracles convince these Protestants of the validity of their own heresy (And also of their legitimate beliefs)
4. Now, God is a God of Truth and would not cause miracles that would further inspire events that would directly confirm people in their heresy.
5. Furthermore, it takes great faith in God for these miracles to happen, yet heresy is one of greatest sins against faith, making such “great faith” very difficult to achieve.

Therefore, I must most unwillingly conclude that although these miracles may be of supernatural origin, they cannot be from God.

Now, after my own ramblings, what is has been the traditional position of the Church (and what are your own thoughts) about the origin of miracles in Protestant denominations?

In Christ,

JD

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I don’t want to seem relitavist or sound like a mush-minded indifferentist…

But I am not sure God can be boxed so comfortably into your suppositions. He acts how He will and He does move in mysterious ways.

I have heard just enough conversion stories of souls who came to know and love Jesus before they came to more fully know Him in His Church. To the man (or woman) these folks affirm the miracles they experienced that lead them and sustained them on a path to the ultimate miracle of being gifted with the fullness of Truth.

I simply cannot act on your suppositions to say that all miracles outside the Catholic faith are dubious.

 

[Johndigger]

I don’t want to seem relitavist or sound like a mush-minded indifferentist…

But I am not sure God can be boxed so comfortably into your suppositions. He acts how He will and He does move in mysterious ways.

I have heard just enough conversion stories of souls who came to know and love Jesus before they came to more fully know Him in His Church. To the man (or woman) these folks affirm the miracles they experienced that lead them and sustained them on a path to the ultimate miracle of being gifted with the fullness of Truth.

I simply cannot act on your suppositions to say that all miracles outside the Catholic faith are dubious.

Whilst my instincts definitively agree with you, when processed by my reason it led me to a conclusion I wasn’t really ready for.

Hence, my appeal is to you wonderful folks, to help prove my conclusions wrong on the grounds of reason. And, obviously, the position of Saints/Church would be most beneficial in this journey of reason.

In Christ,

JD,
an honest questioner

 

[vanillae]

The Church recognizes the presence of truth in other denominations, not that it is ok to optionally pick the truths that we want but it is the complexity of “things down here”. Even pagans may be saved in God’s own way (as the unborn children) but also through the redemption of Jesus Christ.

There are authentic holiness and authentic miracles in other denominations, even in other religion, but it really has nothing to do with whether they are the true Church, instead it is their heart.

Don’t be confused, God leads all those who will be saved to the one truth, maybe by leading them to the Catholic Church or in millions of other ways. The Church is meant to be the leaven of the world which is the mass. Every one who will be saved will be saved through Jesus and his body – the Church – but not all will be Catholic on earth.

 

[Johndigger]

The Church recognizes the presence of truth in other denominations, not that it is ok to optionally pick the truths that we want but it is the complexity of “things down here”. Even pagans may be saved in God’s own way (as the unborn children) but also through the redemption of Jesus Christ.

Yes, I agree completely with this.

There are authentic holiness and authentic miracles in other denominations, even in other religion, but it really has nothing to do with whether they are the true Church, instead it is their heart.

But arn’t miracles there to show the validity of something?

Take for example, Elijah and the prophets of Baal. The miracle of Elijah confirmed the validity of the one True God.

In the same way, by miracles taking place in Protestant Denominations, doesn’t this convince people of the validity of their own beliefs and thus their own heresy?

Don’t be confused, God leads all those who will be saved to the one truth, maybe by leading them to the Catholic Church or in millions of other ways. The Church is meant to be the leaven of the world which is the mass. Every one who will be saved will be saved through Jesus and his body – the Church – but not all will be Catholic on earth.

Your post is quite a reasonable one. However, as a Catholic we are bound to believe that “Outside of the Catholic Church no one is saved.”

Not that, of course, Protestants can’t be saved by being “Informal” members of the Catholic Church but rather that if, indeed these Protestants are saved, they are saved by Christ through the Catholic Church and through no other way.

Again, this in a sense is another that bugs me.

If, indeed, these miracles are an authentic interaction with the Holy Spirit, then why don’t these people then flock to the Catholic Church “outside of which no one can be saved.” What’s the point of the Holy Spirit healing someone’s severed arm if, indeed, it doesn’t re-unite their severed soul with Holy Mother Church?

As we see with many Marian apparitions, for example, she begs people to come to the Catholic Church because she knows that this is the best thing for them.

Shouldn’t this also be a key feature of the validity of any miracle?

If it confirms them in heresy or encourages their seperation from the Catholic Church, then surely it can’t be from God?

In Christ,

JD

 

[childofmary1143]

So, this question has been bothering me for a few days now. I’m going to present it in a reasonable fashion with my thoughts and then throw it open to the floor.

1. Many Protestants claim to have miraculous events happen in their lives. (I believe this claim is true by the credibility of these people)
2. Miracles inspire greater faith in people and confirms the validity of their own beliefs.
3. Thus, these miracles convince these Protestants of the validity of their own heresy (And also of their legitimate beliefs)
4. Now, God is a God of Truth and would not cause miracles that would further inspire events that would directly confirm people in their heresy.
5. Furthermore, it takes great faith in God for these miracles to happen, yet heresy is one of greatest sins against faith, making such “great faith” very difficult to achieve.

Therefore, I must most unwillingly conclude that although these miracles may be of supernatural origin, they cannot be from God.

Now, after my own ramblings, what is has been the traditional position of the Church (and what are your own thoughts) about the origin of miracles in Protestant denominations?

In Christ,

JD

Very good questions JD. Let me answer them as how I see it.

True miracles can only come from God, not like the “miracles” you might see on TV evangelists shows. The Catholic Church is the one true Church and it is God that wants all to enter the Church. Miracles can be a source of grace and perhaps God is giving the non-Catholics an opportunity to respond to that grace, in the form of a miracle, to enter the Church. Grace is a free gift that can be rejected and perhaps this is what happened.

Hope that helps.

 

[vanillae]

Yes, and so it show that one’s faith is valid (the Catholic truth in a Protestant individual for example). In an Anglican country, for instance, it is not always easy to have access with Catholic truth, especially if you are surrounded by a family and community that share the same faith. We, Catholics for example, don’t always know the entirety of what the Muslims’ beliefs, and so we don’t have a chance to consider.

Your vision and desire are really Catholic - these are what all true Catholics desire - to be one with the separated brothers. But our time is not God’s time. It’s been thousands of years of Judaism before Christ was born and known - God’s nation waited that long. God’s people will be one in God’s time, I am sure of that because it is a Church teaching. When that time came, every soul who recognizes truth will recognize the Catholic Church as the one true Church. Again, it is in God’s time.

 

[Johndigger]

Yes, and so it show that one’s faith is valid (the Catholic truth in a Protestant individual for example).

I agree absolutely that the miracle confirms the truth of the Catholic beliefs that an Anglican may hold, but this “confirmation of validity” is not discriminant to simply Catholic beliefs but also the heretical ones that a Protestant may hold.

In an Anglican country, for instance, it is not always easy to have access with Catholic truth, especially if you are surrounded by a family and community that share the same faith. We, Catholics for example, don’t always know the entirety of what the Muslims’ beliefs, and so we don’t have a chance to consider.

Your vision and desire are really Catholic - these are what all true Catholics desire - to be one with the separated brothers. But our time is not God’s time. It’s been thousands of years of Judaism before Christ was born and known - God’s nation waited that long. God’s people will be one in God’s time, I am sure of that because it is a Church teaching. When that time came, every soul who recognizes truth will recognize the Catholic Church as the one true Church. Again, it is in God’s time.

Thank you for this advice, not everything has to be worked out by reason and that it is ultimately in God’s time.

I would be extremely grateful for more views on the subject (particularly official ones), and I will take a breather of a day or so from this thread - pray and then come back.

In the love of the Lord,

JD

 

[Cat]

My dear friend, I would be very careful about ascribing to “some other spirit” the credit for miracles that belongs to the Holy Spirit. I think that is possibly approaching blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is working in this world to bring about the salvation of men, just as Satan prowls about seeking the souls of men.

The Holy Spirit works out His plans to bring each soul into the fullness of faith in Jesus Christ. His plans may include a miracle.

My husband and I are converts to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism. I am 51, he is 50. When we look back over our lives, we see many incidents where the Holy Spirit was preparing us for our conversion to Catholicism, but at that time, we had no idea. It is actually quite amazing to look back on 47 years of “coincidences” and “teachings” and “testimonies” that helped us to find our way to Catholicism.

It’s like a novelist’s plot! I write novels, and I insert little things into the novel at the very beginning that seem to have no real significance. But as the plot builds and is resolved, the reader discovers that the little thing was very significant indeed, that if they had picked up on that “hint,” they would have solved the whole plot in the first chapter.

I think that in the same way, when you hear of a miracle in a Protestant circle, you cannot see into the future and see that God is allowing that miracle to help someone find their way home to the Catholic Church. Perhaps the homecoming will not occur for 40 years or even more. God’s timing is perfect.

So please rejoice when God performs a miracle for Protestant brothers and sisters, knowing that God is in control and knows exactly how the “novel” will end!

I do fear that the reason that many Protestants get de-railed on their journey home is that Catholics themselves sabotage the plot by saying something to the Protestant (e.g., you are going to hell unless you are Catholic) that raises such a big wall that the Protestant can never climb over it. I think that God will hold the Catholic who makes such comments responsible for the souls of Protestant believers who were supposed to come home, but stayed away. We should be wise and charitable, and rely greatly on the Holy Spirit to tell us when to speak up and when to remain quiet around Protestants. Yes, there are times they need to hear it like it is, but there are many times, too, when we need to remember what our Church teaches–that they are our separated brothers and sisters by virtue of their Baptism, and that God is not bound.

 

[LilyM]

No miracles AREN’T just there to prove a particular faith, they are there to prove God’s love for us. And God loves all of us regardless of our faith or lack thereof

Life itself is a miracle, a miracle that God bestows freely on the just and unjust, the believer and atheist, Elijah and the Prophet of Baal alike.

Look at the people Jesus healed - while He does comment on the faith of some of them, others are very different (remember the nine lepers who are totally ungrateful and don’t even thank Him? Doesn’t sound like He cured them because of their faith or their righteousness, does it?)

 

[allana]

Very good questions JD. Let me answer them as how I see it.

True miracles can only come from God, not like the “miracles” you might see on TV evangelists shows. The Catholic Church is the one true Church and it is God that wants all to enter the Church. Miracles can be a source of grace and perhaps God is giving the non-Catholics an opportunity to respond to that grace, in the form of a miracle, to enter the Church. Grace is a free gift that can be rejected and perhaps this is what happened.

Hope that helps.

 

[thistle]

I agree absolutely that the miracle confirms the truth of the Catholic beliefs that an Anglican may hold, but this “confirmation of validity” is not discriminant to simply Catholic beliefs but also the heretical ones that a Protestant may hold.

Thank you for this advice, not everything has to be worked out by reason and that it is ultimately in God’s time.

I would be extremely grateful for more views on the subject (particularly official ones), and I will take a breather of a day or so from this thread - pray and then come back.

In the love of the Lord,

JD

Protestants of today are not heretics. They are our separated brethern. Only the early Protestants were heretics.
Nowadays only a Catholic can be a heretic.

 

[Altesse]

**My dear friend, I would be very careful about ascribing to “some other spirit” the credit for miracles that belongs to the Holy Spirit. I think that is possibly approaching blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.**The Holy Spirit is working in this world to bring about the salvation of men, just as Satan prowls about seeking the souls of men.

The Holy Spirit works out His plans to bring each soul into the fullness of faith in Jesus Christ. His plans may include a miracle.

My husband and I are converts to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism. I am 51, he is 50. When we look back over our lives, we see many incidents where the Holy Spirit was preparing us for our conversion to Catholicism, but at that time, we had no idea. It is actually quite amazing to look back on 47 years of “coincidences” and “teachings” and “testimonies” that helped us to find our way to Catholicism.

It’s like a novelist’s plot! I write novels, and I insert little things into the novel at the very beginning that seem to have no real significance. But as the plot builds and is resolved, the reader discovers that the little thing was very significant indeed, that if they had picked up on that “hint,” they would have solved the whole plot in the first chapter.

I think that in the same way, when you hear of a miracle in a Protestant circle, you cannot see into the future and see that God is allowing that miracle to help someone find their way home to the Catholic Church. Perhaps the homecoming will not occur for 40 years or even more. God’s timing is perfect.

So please rejoice when God performs a miracle for Protestant brothers and sisters, knowing that God is in control and knows exactly how the “novel” will end!

I do fear that the reason that many Protestants get de-railed on their journey home is that Catholics themselves sabotage the plot by saying something to the Protestant (e.g., you are going to hell unless you are Catholic) that raises such a big wall that the Protestant can never climb over it. ** I think that God will hold the Catholic who makes such comments responsible for the souls of Protestant believers who were supposed to come home, but stayed away. ** We should be wise and charitable, and rely greatly on the Holy Spirit to tell us when to speak up and when to remain quiet around Protestants. Yes, there are times they need to hear it like it is, but there are many times, too, when we need to remember what our Church teaches–that they are our separated brothers and sisters by virtue of their Baptism, and that God is not bound.

Amen sister! I am also a member of the Tiber Class of 2004.

I was born and raised Lutheran, then went to non-denominational/pentecostal protestant churches. I learned and experienced so much about the Bible, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in those congregations. I would never have become Catholic without them!

Being Catholic is not just being a member of the institutional organization on the earth. Catholic means Universal, so anyone who believes the truth of Jesus Christ (as confessed in the Apostle’s/Nicene Creeds) will be saved, even without being “officially” Catholic. The Lord sees the truth in our hearts. He alone knows who is truly HIS.

To JD,
Be careful of what you say about miracles in the Protestant denominations. The Lord works mightily in the lives of those who seek him, regardless of their “label”. The only name we should care about is Christian…“one who is like Christ”.

 

[gavanhe]

We need to also define miracles. The catholic way of confirming miracles is very rigorous.
Confirmation from several sources is generally required with a long investigatory period prior to a miracle being pronounced as such.
Even after this process there’s no compunction on any catholic to believe in any particular miracle unless it has been pronounced dogmatically by the church.
Do protestants have a similar process or is any miracle proclaimed as such accepted.
Gerry

 

[vanillae]

I don’t think the Protestants have that similar process as in the Church, knowing the way they think about processes, formality, and authority. And speaking of authority, they have too diversed opinions to have definitive decision about these things. But miracles, though, do not need to be authenticated in order to be genuine (you don’t need to recognize a water for it to be true water), and so in the case of the Protestants, only God knows which are true miracles.

 

[CB_Catholic]

So, this question has been bothering me for a few days now. I’m going to present it in a reasonable fashion with my thoughts and then throw it open to the floor.

1. Many Protestants claim to have miraculous events happen in their lives. (I believe this claim is true by the credibility of these people)
2. Miracles inspire greater faith in people and confirms the validity of their own beliefs.
3. Thus, these miracles convince these Protestants of the validity of their own heresy (And also of their legitimate beliefs)
4. Now, God is a God of Truth and would not cause miracles that would further inspire events that would directly confirm people in their heresy.
5. Furthermore, it takes great faith in God for these miracles to happen, yet heresy is one of greatest sins against faith, making such “great faith” very difficult to achieve.

Therefore, I must most unwillingly conclude that although these miracles may be of supernatural origin, they cannot be from God.

Now, after my own ramblings, what is has been the traditional position of the Church (and what are your own thoughts) about the origin of miracles in Protestant denominations?

In Christ,

JD

God is not bound by anything. If He wants to work a miracle in a Protestant church, so be it. He isn’t subject to what we think, and we shouldn’t put limits on Him. He nurtures and sustains and provides for all of us, and loves us all, Catholic, Protestant, non-Christian. I think you are intruding into God’s business here. He has His ways, and as He said, His ways are not ours. Don’t try to project your own ideas on to God–it never works. God is God, period.

Besides, any “miracle” that is from the evil one will eventually be revealed as a deception, but what comes from God will stand. Be careful that you do not ascribe an action of the Holy Spirit to Satan–that can be a serious sin. You can’t make a blanket statement about heretics and miracles as you have done because you could be treading on dangerous ground.

 

[Johndigger]

Thank you for your many insightful replies!

After my prayerful consideration of your posts, I have a few things to say.

If I first may defend my intentions before further thanking some of you for your knowledge.

God is not bound by anything. If He wants to work a miracle in a Protestant church, so be it. He isn’t subject to what we think, and we shouldn’t put limits on Him. He nurtures and sustains and provides for all of us, and loves us all, Catholic, Protestant, non-Christian. I think you are intruding into God’s business here. He has His ways, and as He said, His ways are not ours. Don’t try to project your own ideas on to God–it never works. God is God, period.

Our God is a wonderful and mysterious God. He is also a God of reason. He cannot contradict His own self.

God’s own nature is Truth itself. So, clearly He cannot contradict this by endorsing heresy. And this was my percieved contradiction, which was seemingly resolved only by the above conclusion.

Protestants of today are not heretics. They are our separated brethern. Only the early Protestants were heretics.
Nowadays only a Catholic can be a heretic.

Not entirely true, I’m afraid.
Canon 751.:

Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the** reception of baptism** of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith

Heresy can be committed by any baptised Christian, you don’t have to be Catholic. Whether this heresy is formal or material, I’ll leave for God to decide.

I firmly believe that sometimes it is a good idea to call a spade - a spade. However, let us not quibble about terms.

Onto a more positive note,

Thank you to LilyM!

No miracles AREN’T just there to prove a particular faith, they are there to prove God’s love for us. And God loves all of us regardless of our faith or lack thereof

Life itself is a miracle, a miracle that God bestows freely on the just and unjust, the believer and atheist, Elijah and the Prophet of Baal alike.

Yes, I think I agree with this. Miracles arn’t just there to prove the validity of something - in fact in a sense they may have nothing to do with confirming truth at all, but rather showing love.

Now this was the post that really got me.

Thank you, Cat.

It’s like a novelist’s plot! I write novels, and I insert little things into the novel at the very beginning that seem to have no real significance. But as the plot builds and is resolved, the reader discovers that the little thing was very significant indeed, that if they had picked up on that “hint,” they would have solved the whole plot in the first chapter.

I think that in the same way, when you hear of a miracle in a Protestant circle, you cannot see into the future and see that God is allowing that miracle to help someone find their way home to the Catholic Church. Perhaps the homecoming will not occur for 40 years or even more. God’s timing is perfect.

Yes, I think my error was looking too much at the short time effects of miracles, which may inadvertently confirm heresy.

However, in the larger scheme of things that only God can see - each miracle in itself is a call towards the fullness of Truth that resides in the Catholic faith, even if it is rejected.

Thank you all.

In Domino,

JD

 

[rwoehmke]

Even during Jesus’s time on earth people other than his disciples were doing things in the name of Jesus. I would not be quick to say God would not work through someone in another denomination.

[Mark 9:38-40] John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us.