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JSmitty2005
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“Truth has always bothered people and is never comfortable.”
Cardinal Ratzinger, October 9, 2000
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Cardinal Ratzinger, October 9, 2000
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JSmitty2005
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Probably none other than opposing orthodoxy.
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Kirane
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Here is what His Holiness, the Vicar of Christ Pope John Paul II said in his speech of Monday 12 January 1987
"Dear Bishop Browning,
It is a great joy for me to welcome you and your party to Rome. I am happy that you chose to make a visit to the Vatican at an early stage of your ministry as Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church in the United States of America. I assure you of my prayers that your service to Christ will bear great spiritual fruit."
So, contrary to what you have asserted, there is nothing wrong with referring to the Episcopal Church or the Baptist Church as the Catholic Popes have themselves done so.
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Kirane
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That’s funny because His holiness Pope John Paul II refers to the Lutheran Church in his address of Monday, 24 March 2003: " Dear Friends,
I am pleased to welcome the delegation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America making an ecumenical journey to Istanbul, Rome and Canterbury. I also take this occasion to offer my cordial good wishes to Bishop Mark Hansen as he begins his term as Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and as Vice-President of the Lutheran World Federation. May your visit confirm you in your commitment to the cause of Christian unity."
So contrary to your petty and off-topic statements, which are not relevant to the main question under discussion, there is nothing wrong with referring to the Lutheran Church as a Catholic Pope has already done so, and it is not wrong to follow his example in this regard.
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JSmitty2005
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Kirane, apparently you do not understand the hierarchy of Church teachings. These statements by the pope, first of all, were not intended to address the “church-hood” of any of these denominations in a strict sense. Secondly, what the pope says to these audiences can be completely an totally erroneous as long as he’s not making a statement universally binding on the faithful. The pope is not infallible in all he says and does. To suggest that he is, which you are doing, borders of papolatry. Not only I but also Nullasalus and JKirkLVNV have verified that your stance is not the Catholic one. Let’s have a little bit of humility (and courtesy for the OP) and drop the subject because you’re not making any headway. Start another thread if it’s that important to you. Furthermore, to prove my point again, the pope is obviously not speaking in a strict sense considering that he calls the one Lutheran guy a bishop when in fact he is not a bishop. He is a layman because his ordination is not valid.
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JKirkLVNV
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Yes, but JSmitty, with respect, the Holy Father WAS using the term “church” in the same sense that Karl did: colloquially. Infallibility isn’t even a blip on the radar screen in this conversation. What I’m attempting to point out is that there was no question of the Holy Father speaking “erroneously” as you put it, but neither was he “shooting his lip off,” as it were. He was just being courteous. They call themselves a “church” and he wasn’t going to get into all of that. We should practice the same courteousy as the Holy Father, but we cannot do so at the exspense of truth (and I do know, of course, that you fully understand that) any more than he could (as is witnessed by his promulgation of Dominus Jesus). But when the Archbishop of Canterbury comes to call, the Holy Father isn’t going to point at him and laugh, or say “You’re really the Archlayman, you know.” He *was *speaking in a strict sense when addressing the Lutheran gentleman: a strictly courteous sense.
Kirane: also, with respect, your understanding does not correlate with the Catholic Church’s understanding in terms of her TEACHING. She simply tries to be diplomatic and courteous in her dealings with other churches (true particular churches) and ecclesial communities.
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Kirane
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That is funny because I have read where the Pope refers to the Eastern Orthodox Church and he does not use the term sect.
As far as miracles in other Churches, such as the Eastern Orthodox Church, you can find information including photos and videos on the miracle of the Holy fire which is said to occur every year in the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem at:
holyfire.org/eng/
According to the wikipedia two 11th century Roman Catholic priests who attempted to obtain the miracle of the Holy Fire received God’s punishment and this attests to the miracle’s authenticity within the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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JSmitty2005
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That’s what I’ve been trying to say all along. I didn’t even mean to imply that the pope was in error in saying this. I was just saying that it is entirely possible for him to make an erroneous statement. Most people don’t understand that and take every word that comes out of his mouth as if it were God-breathed. Like you said (and like I said before), he was using the denomination’s official name - ELCA, etc. - to be polite. He wasn’t going to try and get all technical, but considering Kirane’s interpretation, it makes me wonder if he should have. How many more people out there have fallen into the same misconception?
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JKirkLVNV
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Yes, but that’s because the Orthodox churches, having maintained apostolic succession and valid sacraments are, thereby, true “particular” churches. That’s how the Catechism describes them.
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mumto5
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I have seen (with my own eyes) healings take place in other churches. I think it was another thread I posted, without mentioning which church, that someone got healed of skin cancer lesions that would never go away by themselves through prayer, someone cured of chronic pain, and other instances. It does happen.
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