Miracles

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Dave_B

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If someone today claimed that they could conjure food out of thin air would you believe them? If not, why not?
 
Because God does not grant miracles to those who brag about being able to do them.
 
I know there were some saints, like St. Rita, who got a fig and rose in the middle of winter, but she also credited this to God.

With a person with food out of air, I’d be skeptical, probably not believe, particularly if they were taking credit for this instead of giving credit to God.
 
Dave_B said:
If someone today claimed that they could conjure food out of thin air would you believe them? If not, why not?
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If you are referring to the feeding of the 5 thousand, you should take note that Jesus didn’t “conjure food out of thin air,” rather he multiplied the existing bread and fishes. No “conjuring” was necessary nor done.
 
Here is a brief quotation concerning miracles: “The Holy Ghost provides sufficiently for the Church in matters profitable unto salvation, to which purpose the gratuitous graces are directed. … As man led by his natural reason is able to arrive at some knowledge of God through His natural effects, so is he brought to a certain degree of supernatural knowledge of the objects of faith by certain supernatural effects which are called miracles.” Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 178, Article 1]
 
Aquinas21 said:
Here is a brief quotation concerning miracles: “The Holy Ghost provides sufficiently for the Church in matters profitable unto salvation, to which purpose the gratuitous graces are directed. … As man led by his natural reason is able to arrive at some knowledge of God through His natural effects, so is he brought to a certain degree of supernatural knowledge of the objects of faith by certain supernatural effects which are called miracles.” Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 178, Article 1]
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As always St Thomas is eminently reasonable. It is very hard to find an error in his arguments. 🙂
 
Dave_B said:
If someone today claimed that they could conjure food out of thin air would you believe them? If not, why not?
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Not if they had no reason to support their claim. Extraordinary capability requires an extraordinary explanation. 🙂
 
tonyrey said:
As always St Thomas is eminently reasonable. It is very hard to find an error in his arguments. 🙂
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At least Aquinas was a very good thinker who really accomplished a lot of good work.
If he had lived a few more years (in earthly terms), he might have made a few corrections and improvements on a few subjects.

Here is a miracle quotation from a different writer: “The miracles of earth are the laws of heaven.”
[from a German writer known as Jean Paul on this page with [URL='http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/']this license]
 
Thank you for your responses.

How do we know it is God granting the miracles, and not some other explanation?

For example, Muhammed was reported to have literally split the moon in two, and many muslims believe this as a historical event.

I presume not many here believe in *that *miracle.

Alternative explanations could be that the followers of the prophet lied, or that they were honestly mistaken. They could have seen an eclipse or it just looked like it had split in two when it hadn’t.

Or it could be based on camp fire legends and tales which had become more spectacular and eventful over time.

People are know to lie, and people are known to have mental health problems and make stuff up.

There are many people from different faith groups around the world today who claim to be able to perform miracles. We don’t believe them.

Is multiplying fishes and loaves any different because it is claimed to have happened 2000 years ago?

I guess if you believe Jesus is God and with God created the universe, then to create food out of thin air is not only possible but no difficulty at all.

But what is this assumption based upon. I guess it presumes God’s existence, that Jesus is God or empowered by God, and the stories recounted in the gospels are reliable.

Extraordinary capability requires an extraordinary explanation, and I assume also extraordinary evidence. Without which you cannot reliably say that the food multiplication miracle is valid.
 
St John Vianney (patron saint of parish priests) reportedly prayed that food would be provided to feed children. He awoke the next morning to find the attic filled with grain for bread. This occurred around 1824.
 
Hi John

And do you believe this story. Do you think food materialised out of thin air for him?

Are there any other explanations which could be valid? Such as someone else put the food there.
 
Dave_B said:
Thank you for your responses.

How do we know it is God granting the miracles, and not some other explanation?

For example, Muhammed was reported to have literally split the moon in two, and many muslims believe this as a historical event.

I presume not many here believe in *that *miracle.

Alternative explanations could be that the followers of the prophet lied, or that they were honestly mistaken. They could have seen an eclipse or it just looked like it had split in two when it hadn’t.

Or it could be based on camp fire legends and tales which had become more spectacular and eventful over time.

People are know to lie, and people are known to have mental health problems and make stuff up.

There are many people from different faith groups around the world today who claim to be able to perform miracles. We don’t believe them.

Is multiplying fishes and loaves any different because it is claimed to have happened 2000 years ago?

I guess if you believe Jesus is God and with God created the universe, then to create food out of thin air is not only possible but no difficulty at all.

But what is this assumption based upon. I guess it presumes God’s existence, that Jesus is God or empowered by God, and the stories recounted in the gospels are reliable.

Extraordinary capability requires an extraordinary explanation, and I assume also extraordinary evidence. Without which you cannot reliably say that the food multiplication miracle is valid.
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How do you determine what is ordinary? If you only go by what usually happens you are ruling out the possibility of more scientific discoveries which throw new light on our interpretation of reality.
 
Dave_B said:
Thank you for your responses.

How do we know it is God granting the miracles, and not some other explanation?

For example, Muhammed was reported to have literally split the moon in two, and many muslims believe this as a historical event.

I presume not many here believe in *that *miracle.

Alternative explanations could be that the followers of the prophet lied, or that they were honestly mistaken. They could have seen an eclipse or it just looked like it had split in two when it hadn’t.

Or it could be based on camp fire legends and tales which had become more spectacular and eventful over time.

People are know to lie, and people are known to have mental health problems and make stuff up.

There are many people from different faith groups around the world today who claim to be able to perform miracles. We don’t believe them.
Click to expand...
You’ve made a lot of assumptions here. 🙂 Firstly, the Church does not claim that only Christians can ask God for miracles and receive them. God does not take theology tests from anyone before answering prayers. So, it is perfectly possible that Muhammed could have, by the power of God, split the moon. Jesus said if we have faith the size of a mustard seed we can command mountains be torn up and cast into the sea. Now, having said that, do I believe Muhammed actually split the moon? It doesn’t appear so since it seems to be intact, so I would chalk this up to religious legend. Even Christianity is filled with pious legends, which is why the Church has downgraded the devotion to some saints from the general calendar to local devotion–not because those saints weren’t holy but only because their history cannot be fully documented.
Is multiplying fishes and loaves any different because it is claimed to have happened 2000 years ago?
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I guess if you believe Jesus is God and with God created the universe, then to create food out of thin air is not only possible but no difficulty at all.
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When a miracle happened is of no account. Those who were there wrote about it and the Church to whom Christ gave the charism of deciding matters of faith and morals has declared that the Gospels are inspired, the written word of God. We believe in Christ, we believe in his Church, so we believe the Gospels. And again, Jesus didn’t create food out of thin air–he multiplied food that already existed. There is a difference.
But what is this assumption based upon. I guess it presumes God’s existence, that Jesus is God or empowered by God, and the stories recounted in the gospels are reliable.
Click to expand...
Extraordinary capability requires an extraordinary explanation, and I assume also extraordinary evidence. Without which you cannot reliably say that the food multiplication miracle is valid.
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We assume that Jesus was the Christ because he rose from the dead. If he hadn’t we wouldn’t be here discussing this issue. Jesus’ little group would have died out like so many others at his time who claimed their leader was the Messiah, but nothing came of them. We either believe in Christ and his Church or we don’t. It’s really that simple and that profound.
 
Della said:
… We either believe in Christ and his Church or we don’t. It’s really that simple and that profound.
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I enjoy reading your posts (and other “forum masters”), they are so well written!

Yes, it is simply a question of belief. Do we have faith or not.
 
Dave_B said:
I enjoy reading your posts (and other “forum masters”), they are so well written!
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:tiphat:
Yes, it is simply a question of belief. Do we have faith or not.
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Indeed. Of course, it’s not blind faith. The Christian faith is both miraculous and reasonable, not either one or the other. 🙂
 
I think that this thread about miracles needs another reference to idealism, as distinct from materialism or naturalism, in other words equal rights for Spirit as well as Matter. Therefore, here is a clickable link for this post by me in another recent thread (about divine inactivity) which was started by Dave. There are also seven clickable links included in that post, although I neglected to give the links a blue color in that post.
 
Hi All

Re Miracles. If today someone claimed to walk on water or feed a multitude with a few loaves and fishes, would you believe them?

What evidence would be needed to satisfy you that a miracle had taken place?

If there were no eye witnesses, if the third hand accounts were anonymous and contradictory, would this bring into question whether the miracles had actually taken place?
 
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