Misconceptions about Traditional Catholics

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I have a situation I would like to share with you and get feedback from you about my response to it and I want your honest feedback. It has to do with people who normally go to a latin rite church but they went one week to a vernacular mass and during the mass the priest was unable to distribute communion so an extraordinary minster of the Eucharist(EM) took his place so only a permanent deacon and EMs were distributing communion. They refused to receive communion that day because there was no priest distributing communion. In my mind they rejected God for rules and dogma. DO you believe that is too harsh of me?
Your post is all over the place and has left me very confused.

You seem to be talking about “Latin rite” and “vernacular Mass” as being two different things. Currently, in the Latin Church, of which most people are part of the Roman rite, there are two forms of the Holy Mass: the Extraordinary Form, which is according to the ritual books and rubrics that were in force as of 1962, and the Ordinary Form, which uses the most recent ritual books and rubrics. The Ordinary Form can be entirely or partly in the vernacular, but it’s still part of the Latin rite. In fact, the OF can be celebrated entirely in Latin if the celebrant chooses.

You say the priest was unable to distribute Holy Communion, but he seems to have been present at the Holy Mass. So why was he unable? There doesn’t seem to be a reason for that. If there was no priest available, all of the rules and texts for a deacon or layperson to distribute Holy Communion exist in a ritual book called “Holy Communion and Eucharistic Worship outside of Mass”.

You say “They refused to receive communion that day because there was no priest distributing communion”. Self-communicating is indeed not allowed except by the celebrant of the Holy Mass (priest or bishop), so that was the correct thing to do. I believe HCaEWoM allows the deacon and any EMHC to communicate to each other, however. (I might be wrong on that.)

“In my mind they rejected God for rules and dogma.” This is a preposterous thing to say. There’s no obligation for one to receive Holy Communion, except for once a year. You don’t have to at every Holy Mass you go to. Before Pope St. Pius X encouraged frequent Holy Communion, most Catholics just did it once a year, because doing it infrequently increases the solemnity and reverence behind the act. Furthermore, how can one be rejecting God by following the Church that He gave us?
 
I don’t know with what attitude you held when you wrote “It is much more important to be irked when someone does not feel enthusiasm for the voiceless”, but I will assume good intent on your part.
I did not mean to impugn you. When I write, I try to write so that anyone who reads the post can benefit from it. Please don’t take my comment to mean that you personally are being addressed.
Yes, you are correct, that Latin is not as important as corporal works of mercy. That being said, corporal works of mercy do not replace our spiritual heritage, which the Church has implored us to keep.
The Church has not implored us to keep Latin. The Church has given us a direction. This word is extremely important in Roman Law. Because it means that the Church has pointed to something, but not excluded something else. In this case, she has pointed to Latin and other elements of liturgy that should be preserved, but she has not excluded newer forms of music and younger languages. In Roman Law what does not exclude does not prohibit.
There are far too many anti-traditionalists that snidely assume that they are mutually exclusive: either you are obsessed with traditions,* or* you help the poor. This isn’t the case.
I totally agree with you. This is faulty thinking.
The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate had, until their recent controversy, a thriving outreach to the poor, while simultaneously developing the '61 Breviarium Romanum as an iPhone app and celebrating the EF of Holy Mass.
This is a subject that has nothing to do with what we’re discussing.
Really there is no logical reason that this dichotomy exists at all. My parish respectfully implored our priest not to remove the altar rails at our church. That had absolutely no bearing on how much we feed the hungry, aid the ailing, shelter the homeless, and educate the uneducated.
I agree with you. If something is a work of art, as are some communion rails, they should be left alone. To destroy them is unnecessary and idiotic.
I do very much agree that “The last thing in the world that the Church wants is to see her children fight amongst themselves.” Unfortunately this has occurred anyway. The Church has told us to preserve Latin, and many who have obeyed have suffered for it.
The suffering is caused by both sides. I’m telling you, I’m in a community that uses Latin and we have no such suffering. However, I must also add to this our example. We never discuss this with people outside of the community, unless they’re interested in discussing it as is the case on this thread. Otherwise, no one would ever know. I think that there is an unnecessary negative reaction to the use of Latin and the use of the Extraordinary Form. There has also been an erroneous idea that the Latin and the Extraordinary Form are a right. This is not true. Again, in Roman Law that which is extraordinary is not a right but a privilege. Pope Benedict deliberately used the adjective “extra ordinaria”. It was not an accident. The proof is in the response that he gave to religious superiors who asked if they had to allow it. His answer was that it was a gift, not a right.

We have mistaken impressions on both sides. Traditionalists fight for these things as if they were absolute constitutional rights and the other side fights against them as if their rights were being threatened. Both sides are wrong in their perceptions, which leads to misconceptions about each other.
A tiny schismatic minority of extremists are constantly brought up as evidence that it’s the traditionalist side that’s problematic, while meanwhile anti-traditionalists do things like this and are seemingly getting away with it: ilfoglio.it/soloqui/18390
That which “seems” is not always that which “is”. Remember that. As a superior, I always tell my brothers and the laity who complain about this or that and then say, “But those guys over there . . .” I always say to them, “What I do or say to you is your business. What I do or say to those guys over there is their business.”

I recently had a group of lay people complain about the mass and how I lend a brother to celebrate the OF, but not the EF. I told them the exact same thing. “Worry about you, not me. You do your job and I’ll do mine. Mine is none of your business.”

This is an ongoing problem. Everyone seems to feel that they can tell everyone else what to do or not do. This is not just Traditionalists. I mean everyone on both sides of the house. When and where did we get all of this democracy? It’s scary.
 
Your post is all over the place and has left me very confused.

You seem to be talking about “Latin rite” and “vernacular Mass” as being two different things. Currently, in the Latin Church, of which most people are part of the Roman rite, there are two forms of the Holy Mass: the Extraordinary Form, which is according to the ritual books and rubrics that were in force as of 1962, and the Ordinary Form, which uses the most recent ritual books and rubrics. The Ordinary Form can be entirely or partly in the vernacular, but it’s still part of the Latin rite. In fact, the OF can be celebrated entirely in Latin if the celebrant chooses.

You say the priest was unable to distribute Holy Communion, but he seems to have been present at the Holy Mass. So why was he unable? There doesn’t seem to be a reason for that. If there was no priest available, all of the rules and texts for a deacon or layperson to distribute Holy Communion exist in a ritual book called “Holy Communion and Eucharistic Worship outside of Mass”.

You say “They refused to receive communion that day because there was no priest distributing communion”. Self-communicating is indeed not allowed except by the celebrant of the Holy Mass (priest or bishop), so that was the correct thing to do. I believe HCaEWoM allows the deacon and any EMHC to communicate to each other, however. (I might be wrong on that.)

“In my mind they rejected God for rules and dogma.” This is a preposterous thing to say. There’s no obligation for one to receive Holy Communion, except for once a year. You don’t have to at every Holy Mass you go to. Before Pope St. Pius X encouraged frequent Holy Communion, most Catholics just did it once a year, because doing it infrequently increases the solemnity and reverence behind the act. Furthermore, how can one be rejecting God by following the Church that He gave us?
Its rather simple really… People who usually only attend Mass celebrated in latin went to a vernacular mass. At the time of communion the priest suffered a coughing fit which took him off the altar during communion. In his place an EM was called from the congregation to fill in. They refused to receive because the would be unable to receive from a priest. They went there fully expecting to receive so this once a year argument is irrelevant. Do you think it was proper for them to not receive communion because a priest was not there to distribute communion. its a simple question.
 
Its rather simple really… People who usually only attend Mass celebrated in latin went to a vernacular mass. At the time of communion the priest suffered a coughing fit which took him off the altar during communion. In his place an EM was called from the congregation to fill in. They refused to receive because the would be unable to receive from a priest. They went there fully expecting to receive so this once a year argument is irrelevant. Do you think it was proper for them to not receive communion because a priest was not there to distribute communion. its a simple question.
There are two problems with this mode of thinking.
  1. If I understood you correctly, there was a deacon there as well.
A deacon is a cleric. His is an ordinary minister of Holy Communion.
  1. The EMHC is precisely for extraordinary situations when a cleric cannot distribute Holy Communion or needs help. This is one of those situations.
 
There are two problems with this mode of thinking.
  1. If I understood you correctly, there was a deacon there as well.
A deacon is a cleric. His is an ordinary minister of Holy Communion.
  1. The EMHC is precisely for extraordinary situations when a cleric cannot distribute Holy Communion or needs help. This is one of those situations.
Yes there was a permanent deacon but they refused to receive from anyone but a priest. I find that thinking very troubling.
 
Your post is all over the place and has left me very confused.

You seem to be talking about “Latin rite” and “vernacular Mass” as being two different things. Currently, in the Latin Church, of which most people are part of the Roman rite, there are two forms of the Holy Mass: the Extraordinary Form, which is according to the ritual books and rubrics that were in force as of 1962, and the Ordinary Form, which uses the most recent ritual books and rubrics. The Ordinary Form can be entirely or partly in the vernacular, but it’s still part of the Latin rite. In fact, the OF can be celebrated entirely in Latin if the celebrant chooses.

You say the priest was unable to distribute Holy Communion, but he seems to have been present at the Holy Mass. So why was he unable? There doesn’t seem to be a reason for that. If there was no priest available, all of the rules and texts for a deacon or layperson to distribute Holy Communion exist in a ritual book called “Holy Communion and Eucharistic Worship outside of Mass”.

You say “They refused to receive communion that day because there was no priest distributing communion”. Self-communicating is indeed not allowed except by the celebrant of the Holy Mass (priest or bishop), so that was the correct thing to do. I believe HCaEWoM allows the deacon and any EMHC to communicate to each other, however. (I might be wrong on that.)

“In my mind they rejected God for rules and dogma.” This is a preposterous thing to say. There’s no obligation for one to receive Holy Communion, except for once a year. You don’t have to at every Holy Mass you go to. Before Pope St. Pius X encouraged frequent Holy Communion, most Catholics just did it once a year, because doing it infrequently increases the solemnity and reverence behind the act. Furthermore, how can one be rejecting God by following the Church that He gave us?
Receiving Communion from a deacon or an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion is not self-communicating.
 
Receiving Communion from a deacon or an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion is not self-communicating.
I was breakfasting with our monsignor this morning and the issue of from whom to receive communion came up (it was a group of folks). He reaffirmed that a deacon, being an ordained cleric, is an ordinary minister of holy communion (but as between himself and a priest, the body is given by the priest and the deacon provides the blood). It is only when there is neither a priest nor a deacon available (or there are special needs during large masses) that a parish turns to the “extraordinary” ministers (hence the name) to assist in distributing communion. Now, I know some parishioners who will not accept communion from anyone other than a priest or a deacon, but that is another discussion altogether.
 
I was breakfasting with our monsignor this morning and the issue of from whom to receive communion came up (it was a group of folks). He reaffirmed that a deacon, being an ordained cleric, is an ordinary minister of holy communion (but as between himself and a priest, the body is given by the priest and the deacon provides the blood). It is only when there is neither a priest nor a deacon available (or there are special needs during large masses) that a parish turns to the “extraordinary” ministers (hence the name) to assist in distributing communion. Now, I know some parishioners who will not accept communion from anyone other than a priest or a deacon, but that is another discussion altogether.
But not receiving from anyone but a priest is precisely the discussion I raised. My question was is it proper for the faithful to refuse reception of Holy Communion because it was not distributed by a priest. The people in question wouldn’t even receive from a deacon.
 
And what is meant by “self-communicating”?
Well, it is not receiving from a deacon or an EMHC 🤷 Self-communicating is when one picks up the chalice or ciborium from the altar and gives Communion to themselves rather than receiving Communion from the priest, deacon or the EMHC.
 
But not receiving from anyone but a priest is precisely the discussion I raised. My question was is it proper for the faithful to refuse reception of Holy Communion because it was not distributed by a priest. The people in question wouldn’t even receive from a deacon.
Oh, I’ve seen this before. At a previous parish, one of the First Communion mothers pitched a fit and demanded that the children receive their First Communion from the beloved retired pastor ( a Monsignor) and not the current “young” pastor.
The Pastor stepped aside to avoid an ugly scene, and because he too highly respected and loved the retired priest. He was at the cup, which many of the children were advised by their parents to pass up.
I’ll never forget the pain and hurt on his face.
it was a shameful moment for our parish.
And we’re not talking even a deacon or a lay person. This was done to a good priest.

There are plenty of people in my parish that leave an EM’s line to go stand in Father’s line.
It begs the question: Do people think the Eucharist is LESS depending on who gives it to them?
really? :confused:
 
I was breakfasting with our monsignor this morning and the issue of from whom to receive communion came up (it was a group of folks). He reaffirmed that a deacon, being an ordained cleric, is an ordinary minister of holy communion (but as between himself and a priest, the body is given by the priest and the deacon provides the blood). It is only when there is neither a priest nor a deacon available (or there are special needs during large masses) that a parish turns to the “extraordinary” ministers (hence the name) to assist in distributing communion. Now, I know some parishioners who will not accept communion from anyone other than a priest or a deacon, but that is another discussion altogether.
I think you mean to say that the priest distributes the Body of Christ and it is normaly the duty of the deacon to distribute the Precious Blood when both species are being offered.
 
Oh, I’ve seen this before. At a previous parish, one of the First Communion mothers pitched a fit and demanded that the children receive their First Communion from the beloved retired pastor ( a Monsignor) and not the current “young” pastor.
The Pastor stepped aside to avoid an ugly scene, and because he too highly respected and loved the retired priest. He was at the cup, which many of the children were advised by their parents to pass up.
I’ll never forget the pain and hurt on his face.
it was a shameful moment for our parish.
And we’re not talking even a deacon or a lay person. This was done to a good priest.

There are plenty of people in my parish that leave an EM’s line to go stand in Father’s line.
It begs the question: Do people think the Eucharist is LESS depending on who gives it to them?
really? :confused:
That is such a distressing story. My goodness. I don’t believe they see it as LESS but I do believe they rejected Jesus because he wasn’t offered to them in a way they found acceptable. Their will was superior to them over receiving Jesus
 
Well, it is not receiving from a deacon or an EMHC 🤷 Self-communicating is when one picks up the chalice or ciborium from the altar and gives Communion to themselves rather than receiving Communion from the priest, deacon or the EMHC.
This is correct.
I think you mean to say that the priest distributes the Body of Christ and it is normaly the duty of the deacon to distribute the Precious Blood when both species are being offered.
I hope not, because that’s not correct.

The deacon is the Minister of the Cup. This is true. But when there is a need for two ministers of Holy Communion, the deacon is the proper person to be the 2n minister.

Why is he the Minister of the Cup? The deacon is a servant. In the ancient Church, it was the deacons who went around the table billing the goblets.
 
Its rather simple really… People who usually only attend Mass celebrated in latin went to a vernacular mass. At the time of communion the priest suffered a coughing fit which took him off the altar during communion. In his place an EM was called from the congregation to fill in. They refused to receive because the would be unable to receive from a priest. They went there fully expecting to receive so this once a year argument is irrelevant. Do you think it was proper for them to not receive communion because a priest was not there to distribute communion. its a simple question.
OK, I understand now what you meant. I thought you were saying the deacon and EMHC were refusing to self-Communicate.

You are saying that the laypeople would not receive Holy Communion from a deacon or EMHC. You are correct, the laypeople were in error if that’s the only reason they did not receive Holy Communion. The deacon is an ordinary minister of the Eucharist.

But this scenario has absolutely nothing to do with traditionalism. This isn’t a rule that changed at the time of Vatican II. Deacons have always been Eucharistic ministers.
 
I hope not, because that’s not correct.

The deacon is the Minister of the Cup. This is true. But when there is a need for two ministers of Holy Communion, the deacon is the proper person to be the 2n minister.

Why is he the Minister of the Cup? The deacon is a servant. In the ancient Church, it was the deacons who went around the table billing the goblets.
I am not understanding what you are trying to say. Are you saying that a deacon does not usually distribute the Precious Blood when both species are being offered/distributed to the people?
 
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