Miserable medical situation - No good options

[underacloud]

I do mean exactly what I said. I think that’s how most happily married men feel.

I’m happily married and don’t feel this way at all. Maybe I’m atypical. Sex is great, but there are more important ways I express my love for my wife. And more importantly, I’m sure my wife would agree.

My wife’s sister can do chores, watch a movie, cook a meal, rub a shoulder… What my wife and I have that is unique is our intimate relationship. I’d be shattered if my wife wouldn’t mind never having sex again. It’s not just a fun activity lime playing canasta or an urge to be fulfilled!

And presumably her sister would do it out of love. That was my point, that those things can all be great expressions of love. For many women, they are more important…or perhaps more useful…expressions than sex.

What my wife and I have that is unique is our intimate relationship. I’d be shattered if my wife wouldn’t mind never having sex again. It’s not just a fun activity lime playing canasta or an urge to be fulfilled!

Unfortunately, as others have discussed, sometimes for any given couple sex is no longer possible (whether physically or morally). I hope you can find a way to view your relationship with your wife as unique and intimate even if that is not manifest through sex. I hope you can still find moral a way to have sex, but I hope you can have a fulfilling marriage even if you have to abstain.

 

[St_Francis]

FoxFanForty wrote:
…Why would God do this to us? He wants us to be fruitful and multiply, to be open to life, but then makes it impossible? He wants us to enjoy marital intimacy, but then makes it so risky that it must be avoided for decades? I don’t get it and I’m angry.

I read a story about a mother who had to take her very young child to the ER as he had a very high fever. At the ER, they put cold cloths on him to bring his fever down quickly. He screamed at this, and his mother felt tortured as she helped the nurses care for him.

She understood what he did not: that this discomfort was necessary to save his life.

Yes, God wants you to have lots of children. The problem is that the effects of the Fall are continually interfering with God’s ideal will. He has to deal with all these consequences.

So, now God’s permissive will is that you stop being fruitful and multiplying. He is not requiring you to continue to be fruitful and multiplying while at the same time making it impossible. He is making it impossible and lifting that requirement.

…I think that I can stand on my last day in front of the Lord and say, “I did what I had to do to protect my family. If God will damn me for doing the only thing I possibly could to save my wife from being imprisoned inside her own body, then I don’t want to be in his Heaven.”…

This is incorrect. You are not doing the only thing you can to save your wife from the disability which would result from another child. You can keep from getting pregnant by abstaining from sexual relations with her.

… we just can’t have sex for another 15 or 20 years. That is not acceptable to me. And neither is even a remote possibility of getting her pregnant again…

IOW, you want to have your came and eat it too, and you are willing to risk your immortal soul to have sex.

Again, what would you do if your wife were physically incapable of having sex? Would you just say to her: That is just not acceptable to me…?

But you would say that to God?

I hope that you are currently writing in a temporary state of mind, and that once you get over the shock of her diagnosis, you will see that you must do the moral thing. Don’t get a vasectomy; pray and take it one day at a time.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Men are called to abstain all the time out of love. You were called to abstain before your marriage because sex was not in you or your wifes best interest before marriage as it is now. Those that enter the priesthood are called to abstain for life because it is for the best of their spouse the church (their bride). They don’t do it cause it’s easy or because they would rather not have sex…when you become a priest they actually look for someone who has a healthy look on sex.

THe marital act is the act of giving yourself FULLY to your mate in whatever form that might be.

Michael

 

[MichaelHowling]

The purpose of your marriage…the reason why we get married…is to get our spose (and ourselves) to heaven. That is your focus in this situation…not looking at the cost.

Will abstaining at least until you can find some answers show to your wife a figure of Christ in yourself ?

I think it would be a VERY powerful sign.

Sometimes, God permits certain circumstances to change people, relationships,families, the world (think of the horrible murder of Jesus…horrible!..but look at the awsome good). The saints all had crosses in their life…you’re in good company.

You mentioned that you didn’t expect this or that when you got married…but you did expect one thing when you got married…you both wanted to become saints.

God is answering your prayer and to deny the form in which God wishes to bless you WILL be detrimental!

Michael

 

[JackieMom]

I hear you, Foxfan, that this is not just about “not getting off anymore” - but about a huge loss to your marriage and your relationship. I’m surprised others keep accusing you of “just wanting sex” and I’m sorry for that. I know how vital that aspect of marriage is for a man and what a blow to the marriage abandoning it would be.

Having said that, I’m not sure you have a lot of “Catholic” options that will allow you to preserve this aspect of your holy marriage, and it may be the case that to adhere to the rules of the Church, you need to live as brother and sister. I know this is a huge, huge hit and honestly I don’t think my husband would be okay with it either (and no, he’s not a dirty dog!)

I have a feeling that if you asked 10 priests, 9 would suggest the vasectomy and continued participation in the Church. When I was struggling with a similar issue, I could not find a prist to sugfest cutting out sex all together because of the severe harm to the marriage it would cause. They all suggested birth control as long as not used “selfishly.” I know this is NOT official teaching, but that’s what I got.

I am surprised people here are not taking into account how deleterious to your marriage and likely your own soul and mind 20 years of abstinence would be. A sexless marriage is not healthy, period, unless both partners want to give it up. Yes, priests do it, but they sign up for that and we know that they, too, stumble - and they aren’t sleeping with a beautiful woman in their bed every night!

You are in a tough spot. I’ll pray for you.

 

[MichaelHowling]

The church teaches chastity is required for ALL persons as it relates to the vocation in which they chose.

 

[90Domer]

FFF,

I also hope you hold out on your decision, as I think you are acting rashly. I am a woman, so I have to admit that I don’t understand the sex drive you describe. Neither have I seen it in my husband, just as another reference point.

I know that you feel that life is not fair, but I think you do not realize that God gives everyone different crosses to challenge their weaknesses. In my case, it was an infertile husband. We were devastated when we found out, but I was more so. In a bout of deep depression and anger, I stopped marital relations for nearly a year. Thankfully, he offered the suffering up to God and never complained. But from my standpoint, I can say that life isn’t fair to me because I couldn’t have the big family I always wanted. Your cross seems small in comparison. However, you may be thinking the same about mine. Not sure.

In closing, though, I want to say that when you took your marriage vows, it was in sickness and in health. So I want to leave you with this. Just a thought experiment. Say the scenario was switched and you were sick and intercourse could potentially disfigure or kill you. I suspect you would be sad to hear your wife expressing thoughts that the marriage would not last. I feel pretty sure that you would hope she sticks by you and not pick up and leave. I hope you can see where I am coming from and will reconsider your decision.

 

[sdeco]

Everyone seems to think the only options are sterilization or abstaining for 20 years. OP, you said you were using the Marquette method. Did you figure out what went wrong? There is a forum for Marquette where nurses answer your questions within 24 hours:

nfp.marquette.edu/forum/

I have heard of many people who could not figure out NFP but finally had luck with Marquette.

 

[PaulinVA]

My wife is hopefully on her last cycle. However, it’s been more than 90 days and the fertile mucous just won’t stop!

So, we have been abstaining. We are not dead. We are remaining chaste, but still are as close as ever.

I would say that to have sex and absolutely guarantee that there is no pregnancy you would need to have a vasectomy, use a condom, and your wife would need to use some sort of barrier method. That’s crazy - and there is no way you could call yourself open to life, beside the fact that’s it’s the trifecta of mortal sin. Oh, and who would want sex that way? Talk about objectification.

Abstain for now, out of love for your wife. Do the dishes with her. Learn to cuddle and not need to go all the way. See other doctors. I’m sure that something, some medical advance, will occur in the next 20 years…

 

[agapewolf]

You’re going to have to look into new and other ways to connect with your wife. You should have been doing this anyway.

Look, sterilized sex is NOT better than no sex. It is worse. It will cease to be a way you connect with your wife when you sterlize it. It shuts that down.

And anyway, there are still failure rates with vasectomy.

 

[Em_in_FL]

And anyway, there are still failure rates with vasectomy.

Indeed… I’ve heard more than one story of BOTH husband and wife sterilizing - and then being blessed with another child.

Sex causes pregnancy… period.
You can sustain a holy marital bond without sex. It won’t be easy, but it isn’t impossible.

I do feel for you… I’ve had SPD (certainly not to the extent your wife did, though), but I do understand that pain and being unable to move without pain.

I would continue to become more and more educated in every possible method of NFP… yes, learn multiple methods, talk to multiple teachers, read multiple books. Maybe total-abstinence-until-menopause is necessary, but maybe there is hope… and it seems as though it would be worth the effort.

Prayers for your peace.

 

[agapewolf]

The way the op phrased it “the most conservative method of NFP”… really has me wondering too. I’ve done a decent amount of research across different methods of NFP. I’ve never heard this wording before.

If he was saying the most conservative “use” of NFP-- to my knowledge in Marquette, as well as Creighton, there is no such thing. To use such terminology is a serious misunderstanding of the method – a very basic philosophy of how the method works.

So, there’s that too.

 

[Em_in_FL]

The way the op phrased it “the most conservative method of NFP”… really has me wondering too. I’ve done a decent amount of research across different methods of NFP. I’ve never heard this wording before.

If he was saying the most conservative “use” of NFP-- to my knowledge in Marquette, as well as Creighton, there is no such thing. To use such terminology is a serious misunderstanding of the method – a very basic philosophy of how the method works.

So, there’s that too.

I have some questions in that regard too.

 

[mdleagedguy]

I do mean exactly what I said. I think that’s how most happily married men feel. My wife’s sister can do chores, watch a movie, cook a meal, rub a shoulder… What my wife and I have that is unique is our intimate relationship. I’d be shattered if my wife wouldn’t mind never having sex again. It’s not just a fun activity lime playing canasta or an urge to be fulfilled!

Making love to one’s wife is a vital part of a marriage. Contrary to what JackieMom thinks, I’m pretty sure everyone who has responded realizes that. I would be grieving the loss of that aspect of the relationship as much as you.

One thing additional thing to consider, though. You seem to be blaming Church teaching for the situation you find yourself in. It’s the medical condition your wife has that puts you in this situation, not Church teaching. If it is okay to get sterilized in your situation, then it can be okay to get sterilized in any number of situations. But it’s never okay to get sterilized.

You are under tremendous temptation. You have our prayers. I’m sure it seems like this is the least objectionable solution for you. But we are not called to comfort. We are called to be holy, and that requires sacrifice. It even calls for sacrifice that we didn’t want or ask for.

A year ago, my wife was facing possible death due to a medical condition. As an overweight, greying, balding, middle-aged dude with eight kids, there is practically no chance I would be able to attract a new spouse. I would have kids in the house for another fifteen years at which point I would be sixty years old. I didn’t marry and have all those kids because I wanted to live a life of celibacy. I am a healthy male with strong urges. I am accustomed to making love with my wife every single night, and have done so for over twenty years.

Would it be okay for me to fornicate because I missed that form of “communication” with a woman? I’m not going to be able to find a marriageable Catholic woman who will want a middle-aged guy with all of those kids! If one’s grief over the loss of an aspect of one’s marriage would allow sterilization, certainly the loss of the entire marriage would allow for fornication, wouldn’t it? But it wouldn’t. No matter how tempted, no matter how much I might miss that, it’s still not right. My feelings about it don’t matter. The moral character of the act itself remains the same no matter what my feelings are.

The the moral character of sterilization remains the same no matter what your feelings are. And for this reason, it’s more appropriate to bring about a change in one’s feelings because that is the only thing that really can change. Again, I would urge you to either seek another orthopedist and/or get counseling to help you adjust to a new way of life you didn’t want or ask for, and are having a hard time with.

 

[Em_in_FL]

^ That is probably one of the most insightful posts I’ve read on these forums… ever.

 

[PaulinVA]

And, as I think of this, let’s be serious.

If you use the Sympto-Thermal Method and you determine that Phase III (post ovulation infertility) starts on day 20, if you wait until day day 28 or day 29, you are able to have sex once a month and the chance of conception is 0%.

It’s 100% better than no times a month.

 

[Rico_S]

^ That is probably one of the most insightful posts I’ve read on these forums… ever.

Really?

I find the whole fornication analogy ridiculous…and doesn’t apply at all here.

It is not about him just getting off.

 

[Rico_S]

And, as I think of this, let’s be serious.

If you use the Sympto-Thermal Method and you determine that Phase III (post ovulation infertility) starts on day 20, if you wait until day day 28 or day 29, you are able to have sex once a month and the chance of conception is 0%.

It’s 100% better than no times a month.

Yes…agree with this. There should be very small windows where they can be comfortable being intimate without fear of pregnancy, but certainly caution is critical.

 

[Rico_S]

One thing additional thing to consider, though. You seem to be blaming Church teaching for the situation you find yourself in. It’s the medical condition your wife has that puts you in this situation, not Church teaching.

ummm. What sort of logic is this? Yes, it is her medical condition that puts them in this spot, but it is the Church teachings that limit the ability to maintain that aspect of their marriage.

 

[mdleagedguy]

Really?

I find the whole fornication analogy ridiculous…and doesn’t apply at all here.

It is not about him just getting off.

You’re absolutely right. It is ridiculous. As the author of that post, I am in full agreement with you. And it’s ridiculous for the reason I stated at the end of the example. I’m so glad you get me. But I disagree with you on you second point. It does apply here. One’s feelings don’t change the moral character of our actions. Otherwise, we could justify anything based on how we feel about it. If you think feelings do change whether an action is moral, please explain how.

On the other hand, if you believe that feelings don’t change the morality of an action, then my example isn’t so ridiculous after all, and fornication in that circumstance is probably justified.