Miserable medical situation - No good options

[Rico_S]

Of course, also speak to a priest. Preferably one very familiar with the pro-life movement as they will have information most parish priests might not.

I completely agree that he should speak to a priest…and I am glad he has now arranged for that. But I am curious, are parish priests not familiar with the pro-life movement? I would think the parish priest would be ideal–he is likely best suited to handle the struggles of family life.

 

[agapewolf]

Are you married? Happily?

Are you a man??

I am saying what the church teaches— which knows men better than anyone.

 

[The_Bucket]

Ahhhh… the wonderful community that is CAF. Telling sinners like it is!!

I love this place!! If he doesn’t respond well to truth as it is presented here, then what more can we do?

The truth is being presented indeed… but frequently, when it comes to this particular subject, in ways that are far from attractive.

 

[Rico_S]

The truth is being presented indeed…

Well, yes and no. They go too far with the whole “sacrificing his soul” bit. Sure these are grave matters, but there are clearly lots of factors here to consider. I don’t think we can say with any certainty what his culpability is if he chooses to ignore church teaching here.

But yes, his church approved options have been laid out.

but frequently, when it comes to this particular subject, in ways that are far from attractive.

when you have truth on your side, no need to be sensitive or empathetic.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

You should have a discussion with your priest. It isn’t possible to deal with these sorts of issues in the abstract.

 

[FoxFanForty]

You should have a discussion with your priest. It isn’t possible to deal with these sorts of issues in the abstract.

We have an appointment but not for a month. Maybe if I tell the secretary that I’m considering putting another nail in Jesus’s hand and condemning myself to Hell just for
sex they’d fit me in sooner?

 

[smswife]

I am praying for you and your family. This is certainly a diffucult cross to bear.

Before you decide that a vasectomy is the answer for you, please research the failure rates

 

[KostyaJMJ]

We have an appointment but not for a month. Maybe if I tell the secretary that I’m considering putting another nail in Jesus’s hand and condemning myself to Hell just for
sex they’d fit me in sooner?

I bet they find a way to pencil you in sooner.

I think you will feel better after you have a discussion with someone in person. I hope that you find the Church’s view is much more than the petty moralizing you’ve gotten here.

 

[FoxFanForty]

I am praying for you and your family. This is certainly a diffucult cross to bear.

Before you decide that a vasectomy is the answer for you, please research the failure rates

Yes I did. There’s a guy here who does the procedure and puts tiny metal clamps on each open end and obviously you check every year to make sure you’re still shootin’ blanks.

 

[mdleagedguy]

Well, yes and no. They go too far with the whole “sacrificing his soul” bit. Sure these are grave matters, but there are clearly lots of factors here to consider. I don’t think we can say with any certainty what his culpability is if he chooses to ignore church teaching here.

Bingo. A strong temptation reduces culpability. We cannot judge another person’s soul. Nevertheless as a practical matter, I think the OP will ultimately come to regret any decision to have a vasectomy. If he undergoes it, I think that at some point he will come to realize he has chosen poorly. While he shouldn’t be condemned, he also shouldn’t be encouraged to presume on God’s mercy either.

While concerns about the judgmentalism of some posters are warranted, at the same time the condemnation of such people is itself judgmental and runs the risk of leading the OP to believe that he can commit a sin with impunity because everyone is “just being judgmental”. One can and should point out an error without judgment of the person who made it, and that goes for both sides of the issue, not just one. In fleeing from an error, one can go too far and head into the arms of another error.

 

[Bookcat]

Contact the “Paul VI Institute”

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Well, we are going to see our priest about this. First appointment is Feb 22 though which sucks because we need to figure out a plan.

Talked to my wife about this last night, and she said that after all we’ve been through, the vasectomy does sound great - like a perfect solution, but that the Church says “no” and she doesn’t want either of us to burn in Hell. She said at this point it’s just an obedience issue, and that if our priest says to go ahead and do it, she will be okay with it. I told her we can always go to confession later.

This is so hard. I can’t just let intimacy with my wife go. Maybe some men could, but I can’t.

Between now and Feb 22, you are simply taking it one day at a time. Just as you did when she was first recovering. Do not think of 20 years as one unit. Pray each day for the strength for THAT day. The strength to love your wife, care for your family, be a model of Christ to them, for that one day only. Give us this day our daily bread.

I will be praying for you both, for your priest, your wife’s doctors, and for any other counselors who might come along to help you down this road.

 

[The_Bucket]

I don’t think we can say with any certainty what his culpability is if he chooses to ignore church teaching here.

No, we can’t. However, it’s certainly not a good sign when someone hears the Church’s teaching on the subject and intentionally ignores what is said. I cannot judge anything, but I can use my ability to discern actions and say that intentionally going against the Church’s doctrine is not a good thing.

when you have truth on your side, no need to be sensitive or empathetic.

Oh definitely not. Empathy and sensitivity are for liberals.

 

[The_Bucket]

Bingo. A strong temptation reduces culpability.

Not really. The relative strength of temptation does not matter. What constitutes a mortal sin is clear:

• Grave matter
• Full knowledge of the sin and its gravity
• Complete consent

Something that would reduce consent, but not eliminate it, would be something like an addiction. The initial foray into sin caused by addiction would probably be mortal, though again, no man can truly know. Once the addiction has a firm hold, the consent is really weakened.

We cannot judge another person’s soul… While he shouldn’t be condemned, he also shouldn’t be encouraged to presume on God’s mercy either.

Absolutely right.

 

[mdleagedguy]

Not really. The relative strength of temptation does not matter. What constitutes a mortal sin is clear:

• Grave matter
• Full knowledge of the sin and its gravity
• Complete consent

Something that would reduce consent, but not eliminate it, would be something like an addiction. The initial foray into sin caused by addiction would probably be mortal, though again, no man can truly know. Once the addiction has a firm hold, the consent is really weakened.

Oops. You’re right. I was thinking about 2352 in the CCC, which says

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.”

I mangled it. Sorry.

 

[The_Bucket]

That line, by the way, comes right after the discussion about masturbation. The way I read it, it’s basically telling parents not to freak out and assume that their 13-year-old son is destined for hell because he started experimenting with his body and has no idea that it’s disordered in any way. It also underscores how powerful addiction and/or sex can be. The power of sex is why this thread was created.

 

[mdleagedguy]

Indeed.

 

[agapewolf]

Telling someone they can risk their soul when they are OPENLY contemplating a mortal sin, while they are rationalizing it, is NOT judging or condemning. It is admonishing. It is using very serious language to wake the person up. Anything to keep someone from seriously harming themselves.

Anything else like saying “we don’t know his culpability” is ridiculous and playing into the rationalizing and permissions he is already talking himself into.

At this point, he’s TOLD us his culpability. I’m not presuming anything. What God chooses to do with him, or his accountability to God is not my concern, I would certainly pray for prevention of this disaster, and if it happens, repentance, but I will not mince words when someone is openly making reasons for a serious offense against God, his wife, his family, and the church. Or else, on my judgement day, God will say “Why didn’t you say anything?”

 

[Rico_S]

Telling someone they can risk their soul when they are OPENLY contemplating a mortal sin, while they are rationalizing it, is NOT judging or condemning. It is admonishing. It is using very serious language to wake the person up. Anything to keep someone from seriously harming themselves.

Do you truly believe that saying “here, Jesus, let me put this nail in your hand” will have the desired effect of snapping his conscience into harmony with church teaching? It is much more likely to shut him down and he will stop listening to you–having the exact opposite effect that you claim to want.

And of course this is where you would just shake your head and pat yourself on the back and say, “I am just out here trying to save souls and spread the truth” Perhaps more souls would be saved by another approach?

Anything else like saying “we don’t know his culpability” is ridiculous and playing into the rationalizing and permissions he is already talking himself into.

No…it isn’t. Claiming that his culpability is in question and we should not go around squawking “Mortal Sin! Mortal Sin!..He is sacrificing his soul for SEX!!” is not saying that he should act against church teaching. Not at all.

At this point, he’s TOLD us his culpability. I’m not presuming anything.

You seem to ignore the fact that he is in great pain…suffering from despair at the choice with which he is faced. He is angry. So have you ever made a poor decision because you were emotionally compromised? You don’t believe that your culpability is lessened to to the emotional duress with which you have made that decision? Look, I am not saying that a there is no culpability to making a poor choice simply b/c we are under emotional duress…but I am saying that we don’t know what his culpability is and to squeal “Mortal sin, Mortal Sin…you will burn in hell” is not for us to say. It is rash and not our call.

Or else, on my judgement day, God will say “Why didn’t you say anything?”

Indeed. I just hope you don’t turn more people away than you help by “using very serious language to wake the person up.”

 

[agapewolf]

Do you truly believe that saying “here, Jesus, let me put this nail in your hand” will have the desired effect of snapping his conscience into harmony with church teaching? It is much more likely to shut him down and he will stop listening to you–having the exact opposite effect that you claim to want.

And of course this is where you would just shake your head and pat yourself on the back and say, “I am just out here trying to save souls and spread the truth” Perhaps more souls would be saved by another approach?

No…it isn’t. Claiming that his culpability is in question and we should not go around squawking “Mortal Sin! Mortal Sin!..He is sacrificing his soul for SEX!!” is not saying that he should act against church teaching. Not at all.

You seem to ignore the fact that he is in great pain…suffering from despair at the choice with which he is faced. He is angry. So have you ever made a poor decision because you were emotionally compromised? You don’t believe that your culpability is lessened to to the emotional duress with which you have made that decision? Look, I am not saying that a there is no culpability to making a poor choice simply b/c we are under emotional duress…but I am saying that we don’t know what his culpability is and to squeal “Mortal sin, Mortal Sin…you will burn in hell” is not for us to say. It is rash and not our call.

Indeed. I just hope you don’t turn more people away than you help by “using very serious language to wake the person up.”

That’s nice for you. I don’t respond to lollipops and balloons.

In pain, making a serious, Death type of decision that would harm a marriage, such strong words WOULD wake me up, and that is indeed what I’ve responded to in the past.

It’s been explained here already to embrace life. That’s not working. Then we regress… fear the consequences. If for nothing else, that is a good reason.