Miserable medical situation - No good options

[The_Bucket]

What works for you is not effective for everyone. It’s a lesson I’ve had to learn the hard way over and over and over again in my life.

And as Rico noted, many times what you say works for you drives people away from the Church. We don’t want to do that. Where was Christ when it came to talking about condemnations? Pretty sure he reserved it for the Pharisees and not for the prostitutes or the tax collectors. Think about that. Jesus spoke boldly about how those who put on airs and act like they are without sin would receive “a very severe condemnation” while telling a woman caught in the act of adultery that he did not condemn her. That speaks to more than merely the mercy of God but also about how we must tailor the message of Truth so that it seeps into the minds and souls of everyone we encounter.

No one is telling the OP “go ahead and have that vasectomy, that’s all fine. God will be cool with that.” Do you see anyone saying that? Do you see anyone saying that it’s not grave matter? No. We’re confirming that it is indeed grave matter but reinforcing the point that we cannot judge his soul and that God alone is the Judge.

 

[agapewolf]

What works for you is not effective for everyone. It’s a lesson I’ve had to learn the hard way over and over and over again in my life.

And as Rico noted, many times what you say works for you drives people away from the Church. We don’t want to do that. Where was Christ when it came to talking about condemnations? Pretty sure he reserved it for the Pharisees and not for the prostitutes or the tax collectors. Think about that. Jesus spoke boldly about how those who put on airs and act like they are without sin would receive “a very severe condemnation” while telling a woman caught in the act of adultery that he did not condemn her. That speaks to more than merely the mercy of God but also about how we must tailor the message of Truth so that it seeps into the minds and souls of everyone we encounter.

No one is telling the OP “go ahead and have that vasectomy, that’s all fine. God will be cool with that.” Do you see anyone saying that? Do you see anyone saying that it’s not grave matter? No. We’re confirming that it is indeed grave matter but reinforcing the point that we cannot judge his soul and that God alone is the Judge.

I didn’t put on airs and act like I’m without sin.

Jesus didnt’ condemn the sinner, but he DID say “go and sin no more”. We are talking “PRE-SIN” here… not about judging and condemning, its about the fear of a very serious-- bringing on death action here.

This has turned into a thread about people not liking the way I’m doing things. at least I’m trying. YOUR ways aren’t working, are they? they are continuing his rationalizing. When someone says "I can’t judge you, that’s for God alone-- and then he says “Jesus will understand”…See? it’s not working.

At least mine are getting reaction. Seems that there is more to think about.

 

[The_Bucket]

Jesus didnt’ condemn the sinner, but he DID say “go and sin no more”. We are talking “PRE-SIN” here… not about judging and condemning, its about the fear of a very serious-- bringing on death action here.

What death? The death of the OP’s soul? There’s something called confession. There’s also something called presumption and he’s been warned about that.

This has turned into a thread about people not liking the way I’m doing things. at least I’m trying. YOUR ways aren’t working, are they? they are continuing his rationalizing. When someone says "I can’t judge you, that’s for God alone-- and then he says “Jesus will understand”…See? it’s not working.

We’re all trying. A few of us are trying to say that a gentler approach might be a wiser course of action when dealing with someone in pain. And make no mistake about it, that’s what we’re dealing with. Being sexually cut off from a spouse for even a relatively short period of time is not fun. Being cut off for years? That’s daunting. There’s more than just pleasure being considered here you know. Sexual intimacy plays a big role in separating marital relationships from other relationships. It plays a big role in keeping spouses bonded.

It is not impossible for spouses to remain bonded without sexual intimacy, especially in cases where there are medical problems. Look at the elderly or the paralyzed, for example. Those cases might even be considered easier, however, given that sex is basically physically impossible whereas in this case, there is an “out,” albeit a gravely immoral one. That “out” is a very, very serious temptation. All I’m trying to do is acknowledge that temptation, commiserate with someone dealing with a genuinely unfortunate and serious medical situation and gently prodding the OP towards the Church’s teaching.

Yelling, even if it’s virtual yelling, at someone who is hurting generally doesn’t help. If it does, hey that’s great. But the track record isn’t good.

 

[Eliza10]

Ohmigosh this is a terrible dilemma. Agapewolf, please, don’t respond to my suggestion below. I already get where you stand it I know its unbendable. That’s very admirable in most situations but not all.

I think Jesus teaches moral truths bathed in love and compassion.

This situation sure seems to be one of the rarest ones ever where a condom would be called for, (coupled with NFP). I don’t need Agaeworlf to tell me this is wrong but I wonder what a holy priest would say hearing your whole situation. I would talk to a very good priest on that. One who really is known for staying with Church teaching in difficult situations. One who has taken a stand for Gods ways when its very very difficult would be able to compassionately address this with you.

I would not get sterilized. God could do a miracle. True, we are not to expect one, but we can ask and He does do miracles even today! He has in all times.

I also suggest you read about Anne a Lay Apostle at directionforourtimes.com/ Anne and her husband went through difficult days of illness, many of them, when her children were young. You would find a kindred spirit in them and if you wrote to her about what you shared here, i woudl not be surprised if she responded to you personally. Also the ministry has at least one priest assigned by the bishop to the apostolate fulltime, and he might respond too. And you can ask them to pray. I would ask them to pray for a miracle of healing for your wife.

You are in a terrible situation but I truly believe God will pour down many graces on you.

 

[agapewolf]

Ohmigosh this is a terrible dilemma. Agapewolf, please, don’t respond to my suggestion below. I already get where you stand it I know its unbendable. That’s very admirable in most situations but not all.

I think Jesus teaches moral truths bathed in love and compassion.

This situation sure seems to be one of the rarest ones ever where a condom would be called for, (coupled with NFP). I don’t need Agaeworlf to tell me this is wrong but I wonder what a holy priest would say hearing your whole situation. I would talk to a very good priest on that. One who really is known for staying with Church teaching in difficult situations. One who has taken a stand for Gods ways when its very very difficult would be able to compassionately address this with you.

I would not get sterilized. God could do a miracle. True, we are not to expect one, but we can ask and He does do miracles even today! He has in all times.

I also suggest you read about Anne a Lay Apostle at directionforourtimes.com/ Anne and her husband went through difficult days of illness, many of them, when her children were young. You would find a kindred spirit in them and if you wrote to her about what you shared here, i woudl not be surprised if she responded to you personally. Also the ministry has at least one priest assigned by the bishop to the apostolate fulltime, and he might respond too. And you can ask them to pray. I would ask them to pray for a miracle of healing for your wife.

You are in a terrible situation but I truly believe God will pour down many graces on you.

I will respond to this. Condoms have a terrible failure rate. They don’t prevent conception.

Contraception is never “called for”.

 

[agapewolf]

What death? The death of the OP’s soul? There’s something called confession. There’s also something called presumption and he’s been warned about that.

.

Death: to soul, death to marriage, death to intimacy, death to being open to grace, cutting grace and the author of love off is death. It isn’t life.

I would suggest to the OP, (and anyone really) to read the bud mcafarlane books. You will see the spiritual warfare that goes on, and the real deaths that happen when these actions are taken. It makes you completely aware of the spiritual death that takes place-- the serious harm that trickles down to the rest of the world, from even the most private and personal sin, and the generational wounds it causes.

 

[maryjk]

Ohmigosh this is a terrible dilemma. Agapewolf, please, don’t respond to my suggestion below. I already get where you stand it I know its unbendable. That’s very admirable in most situations but not all.

I think Jesus teaches moral truths bathed in love and compassion.

This situation sure seems to be one of the rarest ones ever where a condom would be called for, (coupled with NFP). I don’t need Agaeworlf to tell me this is wrong but I wonder what a holy priest would say hearing your whole situation. I would talk to a very good priest on that. One who really is known for staying with Church teaching in difficult situations. One who has taken a stand for Gods ways when its very very difficult would be able to compassionately address this with you.

I can tell you what a holy priest told me. When I presented him with my medical condition.

Artificial birth control is wrong. Period. Full stop. No excuses.

(Taking medication for a medical condition is not what he was talking about.)

Our choices were to either abstain or us NFP.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I am so grateful to read my fellow forum members’ unanimous and unvarnished statements that voluntary sterilization in order to continue to have sex is WRONG and is mortally sinful.

The situation must be very frustrating for the OP, but I do feel sad and concerned about the amount of attention he is giving to just one aspect of his married relationship with his wife. Sex is not the only form of intimacy and even men can learn to handle life without it for a time. Even an extended time. No it’s not easy. And the man will have temptations. So may the woman. But it will strengthen their bond because they face the temptations together, as one heart, one mind and one flesh.

The OP could see it this way, “This is temporary, until such time as the surgical techniques improve, or there is some other form of therapy that will help solve the problem.” Or, “We will try another method of NFP, since the one we were using did not work well for us.”

But this insistence upon sterilization, despite even knowing that there is a failure rate - the somewhat nasty and biting-back tone to the posts, expressions such as “shooting blanks,” gives me the impression that we won’t be hearing that sort of statement.

 

[yellowbird]

OP - I am so sorry you and your dear wife are having to deal with all of this. My heart breaks for the pain she’s already endured, and the pain you must be going through imaging what abstaining for the next several years will do to your relationship. I am not a guy, but I TOTALLY understand that this isn’t about simply having sex. You are so right - it is a miserable medical situation.

I am glad you are taking this to your Priest. He is truly the one who will guide you best, hopeully in a loving way. He may not tell you what you want to hear, but I hope his words are compassionate - something that is sorely lacking in some who post here.

Know that I will pray for you both. I honestly can’t imagine what this must be like for you.

 

[FriendlyFace]

Abstinence isn’t just for priests, religious, unmarried people. Sometimes married people are called to abstain for short or long periods of time. I’m sorry you’re going through this, but one doesn’t have to be a man to understand what a loss it would be for you and your wife. That’s what makes it a cross. That’s what makes it a sacrifice. That’s what would give it merit if you persevered.

This may sound odd, but I almost feel jealous of you. You have the companionship of a beautiful woman who you love. You have children. I’ve been alone for so many years that I would give almost anything-- and would totally be willing to abstain from sex for 10, 20, 30 years or more-- if I could have a husband and even just one child. (I have to abstain anyway. Lucky me.) I’m not saying you haven’t suffered more than I have these past few years. You certainly have. I’ve merely been lonely. But don’t forget the wonderful blessings God has given you.

“A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more.” Jer. 31:15

 

[Josephene]

Siting this article again , on family healing -

nbccongress.org/features/prayer-for-healing.asp , with the intent that the role of repentance can be used and applied at deeper level , esp. on behalf of any unrepentant sin in the family , with its related role of the enemy , which gets blamed on God !

True, there is the mystery in suffering and attributing simplistic cause would not be right but , any suffeirng , when used to repent for and ask for mercy , on behalf of many is not wasted .

That , inturn , could end up being a blessing , esp. for the children too - in case they might be prone to something similar .

Meditating on The Lord’s Passion , and asking for His Holy Spirit strenght , to flow into sitautions of many , by uniting one’s won sufferings with His , such that many parents who plan to crush their babies and make their bodies , into abode of evil - that they find mercy and love towards the baby , no longer seeing the baby as an intruder but as a focus of the merciful love of The Father , flowing in through The Lord …

and such forgivenss and mercy , inturn , to undo the hatreds in many hearts , hatreds towards parents , that can manifest as destructive, unholy attachements , in one’s own family !

There is St.Andre , who was devoted to St.Joseph ; his own father was kiled in a logging accident ( could the enemy have forseen all the good that St.Andre was going to bring balout thorugh his devotion to St.Joseph and wanted to destroy same thorugh such an accident ! ) - there are many miracles atributed to his intercession, as seen from this talk by Fr.Machado -

youtube.com/watch?v=ZaFWjDKy9W8

May St.Joseph and all holy angels and saints make it possible , for many , to praise from the heart -
’ The Lord is my inheritance '… The Lord, His forgiveness for all occasions …and persons , through the love and prayers of His holy angels and saints too !

 

[Listener]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already. Does your wife’s medical condition cause her to have problems with her monthly cycles, such as pain and/or severe bleeding? If so, the Church allows her to fix this by going on the pill or other hormones that will cause her to be temporarily infertile as a side effect. This would not be a permanent solution, but it might temporarily relieve your stress.

 

[Falco]

Does it say in the bible that sterilisation would be a mortal sin to preserve life or quality of life? If not, who says so?

My grandmother died at the age of 42 after having 16 children. None of her children have had more than 3 of their own. I’m sure that was not the result of abstension.

If this rule of abstension is a manmade one - by that I mean the church leaders, not God or Jesus, I’d ignore it and get a vasectomy, have a happy, fulfilling marriage, and raise a happy family.

I don’t think that a heirarchy composed of professional celibates should rule on another vocation’s conduct.

 

[FoxFanForty]

Does it say in the bible that sterilisation would be a mortal sin to preserve life or quality of life? If not, who says so?

My grandmother died at the age of 42 after having 16 children. None of her children have had more than 3 of their own. I’m sure that was not the result of abstension.

If this rule of abstension is a manmade one - by that I mean the church leaders, not God or Jesus, I’d ignore it and get a vasectomy, have a happy, fulfilling marriage, and raise a happy family.

I don’t think that a heirarchy composed of professional celibates should rule on another vocation’s conduct.

No I don’t think the Bible talks about birth control or sterilization directly (which is why no other Christian faith forbids it) but of course sterilization wasn’t available then. I know people here think I’ll be ruining sex forever if I get a vasectomy, but that’s all hypothetical opinion and millions of couples who have actually used BC or been sterilized would beg to differ. All my friends say intimacy is better without the fear every month that the wife is pregnant.

I tend to agree that these invented church rules can be pretty ridiculous and fly in the face of reason and modern reality. BUT IT’S FOR JESUS!!! Yeah, I think the church is really losing ground trying to make all these nutty dictates about a couple’s fertility. Maybe it’s time they take a look and see how their “No BC under any circumstances” dictate is working in the average American parish and for the average modern family. My dad always said, “If everyone disagrees with you, maybe they aren’t the ones that are wrong.”

Starting to feel I’ve been brainwashed. When I take a step back, I realize I’m torturing myself for nothing. Is this really what God is about, or is this a bunch of clueless, bitter, pent up old geezers trying to destroy the fun of sex and trying to keep women perpetually pregnant? I live in the LA archdioces and I know how a lot of these dudes have been handing THEIR celibacy!

I know the church will never change and even if lots inside the church wanted to, they wouldn’t out of sheer pride and pigheadedness. And thats why young people are saying “no thanks” at such high rates, or taking what they need from the faith and leaving the garbage behind.

 

[agapewolf]

JPII, a celibate man, new more about the dignity of the human person, and about families then families did themselves.-- you can learn a lot from hearing confessions

Read Good news about sex and marriage.

and Love and responsibility. You will be surprised what a “celibate man” knows.

What possible reason would people have for trying to “ruin sex”. It makes no sense.

 

[Sillara]

No I don’t think the Bible talks about birth control or sterilization directly (which is why no other Christian faith forbids it)

This is inaccurate. Until the Lambeth Councils in the 1930s, ALL Christian faiths forbade birth control (which would include voluntary sterilization).

 

[FoxFanForty]

This is inaccurate. Until the Lambeth Councils in the 1930s, ALL Christian faiths forbade birth control (which would include voluntary sterilization).

But they’ve caught up with reality… I don’t know of another religion that currently forbids it, even extremely conservative ones like the Baptists, Mormons or even Amish. They realize this isn’t a world where most families can have 8 kids or have 8 and hope 4 make it to adulthood. The 30s was a time where women were just getting the vote, segregation and institutionalized racism was normal, modern medicine was extremely limited in what it could do and most women were uneducated and doomed to a life of drudgery and constant reproduction, even at their own peril. Let’s go back to that!

Of course, the church would probably say these faiths have sold out to modernity and that the CC has the corner on the morality market. The thing is that’s why it’s so frustrating because it always comes down to “You’d accept our rules if you love Jesus enough” and guilting people into doing what they want.

And don’t tell me some man who has a totally abnormal sex life (celibacy) and no family has no incentive to ruin sex for the rest of us, or at least finds it easy to shrug and say, “Well, that’s the breaks. Keep it in your pants!”. Unless, you know, he’s got something going on the side.

 

[maryjk]

And don’t tell me some man who has a totally abnormal sex life (celibacy) and no family has no incentive to ruin sex for the rest of us, or at least finds it easy to shrug and say, “Well, that’s the breaks. Keep it in your pants!”. Unless, you know, he’s got something going on the side.

So you really aren’t here to learn and understand.

Instead you are here to bash our faithful priests and our religion?

 

[FoxFanForty]

So you really aren’t here to learn and understand.

Instead you are here to bash our faithful priests and our religion?

Excuse me. It’s MY religion and right now it is throwing me and my suffering wife to the wolves with a shrug and smile. I know what the church says. I don’t need to “learn” anything. But in my time of need I have never felt more separated from my church and abandoned.

Seems to me a good, faithful compassionate priest sees how miserable celibacy is and recommends married couples prayerfully use their jidgment and move ahead.

A bitter, haughty priest whose misery loves company says “It’s the rules, sorry buddy!” And then tells you you’re going to hell if you don’t do what he said.

 

[FriendlyFace]

Sterilization has been around for ages. What do you think eunuchs were? And ancient pagan societies had forms of contraception and ways of disposing of infants when their contraception failed. This isn’t a new issue at all, and protestants didn’t catch up to reality, they broke away from it. And you can take it from a former protestant (me) that the grass isn’t greener over there. It just looks that way to you because you’re angry.

Ultimately, no one ever wins by committing a mortal sin or by living in sin. The temporal consequences catch up to you and give you pain for years after, by which time any personal satisfaction that was derived from the sin has faded completely.

Celibate men aren’t clueless. They are imitating Christ and they show the world that fidelity to God is more important than anything, certainly more important than sex. Don’t turn away from God and his Church. It will tear you up inside. I know because I’ve been there and I’m still paying for it years later.

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