Miserable medical situation - No good options

[maryjk]

Excuse me. It’s MY religion and right now it is throwing me and my suffering wife to the wolves with a shrug and smile. I know what the church says. I don’t need to “learn” anything. But in my time of need I have never felt more separated from my church and abandoned.

Seems to me a good, faithful compassionate priest sees how miserable celibacy is and recommends married couples prayerfully use their jidgment and move ahead.

A bitter, haughty priest whose misery loves company says “It’s the rules, sorry buddy!” And then tells you you’re going to hell if you don’t do what he said.

I would rather a priest tell me the truth and help me on my way to heaven, rather than allowing me to go down the path of sin. I know when I talked to our priest, he wasn’t haughty at all and certainly, he wasn’t bitter. In fact, he was quite compassionate.

No one is throwing you or your wife to the wolves.

Instead of using the MOST conservative model of NFP, use the most conservative rules. Give your wife time to learn them, Meet with an NFP only doctor. Talk to others that use NFP because of a severe health issue (like me).

Maybe after doing these things, with an open mind, you will understand that most people simply want to help you, on your way to heaven.

 

[FoxFanForty]

Sterilization has been around for ages. What do you think eunuchs were? And ancient pagan societies had forms of contraception and ways of disposing of infants when their contraception failed. This isn’t a new issue at all, and protestants didn’t catch up to reality, they broke away from it. And you can take it from a former protestant (me) that the grass isn’t greener over there. It just looks that way to you because you’re angry.

Ultimately, no one ever wins by committing a mortal sin or by living in sin. The temporal consequences catch up to you and give you pain for years after, by which time any personal satisfaction that was derived from the sin has faded completely.

Celibate men aren’t clueless. They are imitating Christ and they show the world that fidelity to God is more important than anything, certainly more important than sex. Don’t turn away from God and his Church. It will tear you up inside. I know because I’ve been there and I’m still paying for it years later.

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I don’t think most eunuchs were happily married men needing to limit the size of their families.

I would like some evidence that couples who use birth control or sterilization are all “torn up by it” down the road. This is something many have said but there is no evidence that this is true for most couples who don’t carry Catholic guilt.

 

[FoxFanForty]

And PS we were using a very conservative NFP last time, only having sex on days 7-14 post ovulation on a very regular 28 day cycle. She charted her temps religiously, checked physical signs, used ovulation tests and a saliva test and had months of data built up. She got pregnant anyway!

 

[maryjk]

And PS we were using a very conservative NFP last time, only having sex on days 7-14 post ovulation on a very regular 28 day cycle. She charted her temps religiously, checked physical signs, used ovulation tests and a saliva test and had months of data built up. She got pregnant anyway!

Um, maybe she has totally different cycles then most women that I have heard about. But the worst time for me to have relations would be days 7 -14. In fact, I would only do that if I WANTED to get pregnant. Day 1 is the start of her period. Heck, sometimes I am still having my period on Day 7. For her to have started and ended her period, AND to have ovulated AND to have passed her fertile phase, all by day 7 is very surprising. But I guess it could happen.

Regardless, I would still speak to someone that specializes in NFP.

 

[FoxFanForty]

Um, maybe she has totally different cycles then most women that I have heard about. But the worst time for me to have relations would be days 7 -14. In fact, I would only do that if I WANTED to get pregnant. Day 1 is the start of her period. Heck, sometimes I am still having my period on Day 7. For her to have started and ended her period, AND to have ovulated AND to have passed her fertile phase, all by day 7 is very surprising. But I guess it could happen.

Regardless, I would still speak to someone that specializes in NFP.

Days 7-14 after ovulation. So I guess in your terms days 21-28.

 

[maryjk]

Days 7-14 after ovulation. So I guess in your terms days 21-28.

As I said: Regardless, I would still speak to someone that specializes in NFP.

 

[FoxFanForty]

As I said: Regardless, I would still speak to someone that specializes in NFP.

We have a certified teacher who has 25 years experience. She said my wife’s case was a “bizarre anomaly.”

 

[maryjk]

We have a certified teacher who has 25 years experience. She said my wife’s case was a “bizarre anomaly.”

Which doesn’t preclude you from speaking with an expert.

Keep in mind when I spoke to our “NFP Certified teacher” with years of experience, she had never met anyone that truly NEEDED to avoid getting pregnant. Everyone she worked with had used NFP to space children.

 

[Rico_S]

Which doesn’t preclude you from speaking with an expert.

Keep in mind when I spoke to our “NFP Certified teacher” with years of experience, she had never met anyone that truly NEEDED to avoid getting pregnant. Everyone she worked with had used NFP to space children.

So a certified teacher with 25 years experience teaching NFP wouldn’t be considered an expert?

Hard to believe…but that maybe this is why so many struggle trying to make NFP work.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t think most eunuchs were happily married men needing to limit the size of their families.

I would like some evidence that couples who use birth control or sterilization are all “torn up by it” down the road. This is something many have said but there is no evidence that this is true for most couples who don’t carry Catholic guilt.

Does this make it right? There are lots of things that people do without guilt. Doesn’t make them any less sinful. People should have guilt about a lot of their actions these days. If you have a conscience, you will have guilt about preventing life.

 

[maryjk]

So a certified teacher with 25 years experience teaching NFP wouldn’t be considered an expert?

Hard to believe…but that maybe this is why so many struggle trying to make NFP work.

One would think she would be an expert, but ours certainly wasn’t. And neither is the one the OP is consulting.

Most women have very straightforward cycles. So someone that hasn’t seen it all is good enough.

But if a teacher said to me that my cycle was a “bizarre anomaly?” Well that tells me that she isn’t experienced enough to understand the problems I am having.

And I would call an expert. Since I use STM, I would start with the Couple to Couple league. Then I would see an NFP doctor. In fact, that is what I did. But if I still wasn’t satisfied, I would contact the Pope Paul Institute. In fact, I wouldn’t stop until someone could explain what happened and how to stop it from happening again.

 

[Eliza10]

In my opinion, the OP is a TROLL of the* worst *kind - the kind that is here to tear down our beloved Holy Church, and the OP’s other troll name is helplessprilgrim. Yeah, his “cyberspace-Bro”! They have the exact same writing style and the exact same ax to grind, and they both signed up on this forum with their “impossible situations!” stymied by “made-up church rules!” Yes, read what the OP has to say in his posts #95 and #98 and you can see his true colors and true motivations coming through. That’s why he made up this ridiculous impossible story.

This troll put extra effort into his FanFoxForty incarnation, probably having learned from his previous incarnations, and I was duped. Sorry, agapewolf - having now read all the thread (and not just the OP and your post before mine) I now agree with your responses 100%. I just have never known our Church’s true teachings to ever put anyone in such an impossible situation as our OP seemed to be in, so I assumed She could offer a reasonable alternative. She always does, in my experience. So I assumed going to a knowledgeable and pious priest would help somehow, which is why I suggested that. But I missed the truth: the troll came here because he believes our Church is always rigid and unreasonable!

Yes, too, too many things in this thread are suspicious and do not add up. I won’t name them all as I don’t want to give the troll a tutorial for his next incarnation. I come here to read about real people in real situations, since that is what Our Church is for, and I feel I have wasted a lot of valuable time reading stupid troll stuff on this thread. I wish the moderators would find some way to weed this one out for good.

The truth is the rules of our Church are what make us free. That is something the OP just would not ever get. But those of us who live it have come to know its true. We are truly free!

 

[mdleagedguy]

But they’ve caught up with reality… I don’t know of another religion that currently forbids it, even extremely conservative ones like the Baptists, Mormons or even Amish. They realize this isn’t a world where most families can have 8 kids or have 8 and hope 4 make it to adulthood. The 30s was a time where women were just getting the vote, segregation and institutionalized racism was normal, modern medicine was extremely limited in what it could do and most women were uneducated and doomed to a life of drudgery and constant reproduction, even at their own peril. Let’s go back to that!

Of course, the church would probably say these faiths have sold out to modernity and that the CC has the corner on the morality market. The thing is that’s why it’s so frustrating because it always comes down to “You’d accept our rules if you love Jesus enough” and guilting people into doing what they want.

And don’t tell me some man who has a totally abnormal sex life (celibacy) and no family has no incentive to ruin sex for the rest of us, or at least finds it easy to shrug and say, “Well, that’s the breaks. Keep it in your pants!”. Unless, you know, he’s got something going on the side.

I find it highly unusual that someone who used NFP would post something like this. There seems to be a huge disconnect going on…

I find it highly improbable that a person who used NFP would then somehow come up with a hard case like this that is not amenable to any other solution, reject all attempts at help, and then slam Church teaching and Catholic priests. In addition, the rejection of Church teaching lumps it in with racism, women’s rights, and is the sort of thing typically used by liberal dissenters or non-Catholics who wish to disparage Church teaching. Sorry, but the small percentage of Catholics who do use NFP aren’t likely to reject Church teaching and throw in liberal arguments against Church teaching after rejecting all attempts at help.

By the way, I cited an actual medical study and posted a link which showed that a surgical procedure actually has a good chance of success, and it was rejected out of hand. I work with doctors and hospitals all the time, including a lot of orthopedists. I just can’t see an orthopedist looking at such a complete failure of conservative treatment and not looking at a surgical approach which has pretty good outcomes. Even a failed surgical approach is probably not going to be worse than what has been described. I find it really hard to believe that an orthopedist would just reject a surgical approach in this situation.

I believe the entire story is extremely improbable.

 

[Eliza10]

Amen to all that!

Please, go ahead and be a Liberal Dissenter, but at least be honest about who you are. Don’t patronize us with lies and impossible scenarios.

Ban the Troll.

 

[FoxFanForty]

I like how when someone says something you don’t like, you call him a troll and shout for him to be banned. Nice. For the record, I am not anyone else I have not posted before and this situation is 100% real. I wish it were not, really, I do. But I am furious for my wife, who I feel the Church wants to punish for her body falling apart and NO - the surgery would NOT help! We are experts on SPD, trust me. We have seen the best doctors. My wife is much better now - she just would lose all her progress to get pregnant again. The surgery has a low success rate, and if it did work we would still need to avoid pregnancy. It would not “reset” her to have a bunch more kids.

 

[Student09]

I don’t know that anyone on this thread has really talked about the loving relationship of the soul to God. Yes, we should avoid mortal sin - but that is a negative way of putting it. Why avoid mortal sin? Because it’s the loss of the soul’s intimacy with God. The intimacy of marital relations is an earthly symbol of the - incomparably greater and more beautiful - intimacy of the soul with God. A soul that is intimate with God can bear anything, any cross, any trial, because its strength and its peace comes from Him. Two souls who are intimate with God and bearing the same cross will not be torn apart by it, but brought closer together in Him.

This kind of talk is always in danger of sounding trite, unfeeling, and impractical, because it is difficult to speak about the reality of God. Still, it is true.

I am a woman. I happen to have a strong sex drive and strong emotional desires for intimacy. I have also experienced years of chronic pain. If I were in your wife’s situation, I would be devastated. But as a woman who loves God and the Church, what would devastate me even more would be my husband saying this:

Is this really what God is about, or is this a bunch of clueless, bitter, pent up old geezers trying to destroy the fun of sex and trying to keep women perpetually pregnant? I live in the LA archdioces and I know how a lot of these dudes have been handing THEIR celibacy!

You started by talking about wanting to protect your wife and yet be intimate with her. Now you are talking about “the fun of sex”? And you know, when priests fail at celibacy, it is because their love of God is not strong enough. There is nothing to pity in a life of celibacy lived by a holy priest, because he will love God so much, with such interior freedom and intimacy, that he will be amply repaid for his sacrifice even in this life. I believe the same could be true within a marriage.

I would a hundred times rather experience emotional and spiritual intimacy with a man who was sharing my cross and helping me to carry it for the love of God, than physical intimacy with a man who had cut himself off from God - and therefore also from me.

 

[mdleagedguy]

Now you say she’s better after originally posting that two years after extensive difficult physical therapy (during which time I’m assuming NFP actually worked) she’s still quite disabled.

Two years later, things are not great at all. She still takes narcotics most days and cannot run or play with the kids. She can’t sit on the floor. She can’t lift more than 15 lbs. She has been depressed on and off because of her pain and limitations.

In addition, it took your OBGYN two years to tell you not to use NFP anymore? Why was NFP okay before, and suddenly it’s not?

 

[FriendlyFace]

My point, believe it or not, is that it’s always been easy to sterilize men and the ancients knew it. My point wasn’t that married men frequently did so as contraception. They didn’t. They frequently left infants on trash heaps to die. Women also sometimes ingested things to induce abortions. Read Ovid if you don’t believe me.

At least half of the people who use contraception have unhappy marriages. They get divorced at any rate. And the other half aren’t living in a suffering-free zone. Jesus said that if you want to follow Him, you have to take up your cross and follow Him. Suffering is a part of life for everyone, and every Christian ought to realize that you either carry your cross willingly or you drag it behind you. But the path to Heaven involves a lot of hardship, as any good Bible-reading Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox Christian will tell you.

FoxFanForty:

Quote:

I don’t think most eunuchs were happily married men needing to limit the size of their families.

I would like some evidence that couples who use birth control or sterilization are all “torn up by it” down the road. This is something many have said but there is no evidence that this is true for most couples who don’t carry Catholic guilt.

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[Jabber]

Hello,

I read your post and felt that I should reply. I have incurable metastatic neuroendocrine cancer. About 2 years after my initial diagnosis and treatment, I found out I was pregnant with my fourth child. We were very scared and it was a very difficult time in our lives. Inspired by St. Gianna, I was going to have my daughter regardless of the detriment to my own life. It was a journey in learning to trust Jesus that He had a plan for me and my family. It turned out that my daughter had Trisomy 18 and she died shortly after birth. Her name was Gianna Marie. My doctor said “no more pregnancies”. We were told to get sterilized. I knew in my heart it was wrong. I sought the counsel of a very good and holy priest. I came to realize that nothing, not health, not marriage, NOTHING is worth losing your soul over. I decided to investigate the Marquette model of NFP.

I will be honest with you, having serious medical problems and living an NFP life can be difficult. These are times to grow in HOLINESS. I am using the Marquette model and if you use it in the strictest method, i believe that you will be successful and still be able to have a loving marital relationship. To do this you must not have relations in the pre-peak phase and not until 4 full days after the last peak day. It can be done but you NEED to add in prayer. We go to adoration and I always pray for help in this situation. God will ALWAYS help you if you are sincere in following the path holiness. I was once where you were. I thought my marriage would be over if we couldn’t have a marital relationships. I am telling you it is possible to be successful with this method. It does take commitment, communication, and a mutual respect to lead EACH OTHER to holiness. Pray Pray and Pray for the grace needed to live out that holiness.

 

[FoxFanForty]

Now you say she’s better after originally posting that two years after extensive difficult physical therapy (during which time I’m assuming NFP actually worked) she’s still quite disabled.

In addition, it took your OBGYN two years to tell you not to use NFP anymore? Why was NFP okay before, and suddenly it’s not?

No. He has been frustrated and angry with us for not doing something reliable about this. He strongly suggested a tubal ligation since our last baby was delivered by Cesarean section. We have stalled. He’s pressing her to make a choice. And yes, she’s a lot better. Can drive a car, walk and does not needto wear Depends diapers or use a wheelchair. There’s still fallout, but she’s busting her butt to recover as much as she can.