Miserable with NFP!

[Good_Daughter]

My husband and I are both ardent environmentalists.

Then why rely on technology to produce the infertility your body creates on its own with no unnecessary energy or waste?

I strongly believe that a couple should have no more than two children, so that we reproduce ourselves in an overpopulated (and very expensive) world but don’t add to the population.

We waited two years after our wedding before we conceived, so that our marriage was solid. I used a diaphragm with spermicidal jelly. I stopped using it and got pregnant and had a daughter, then resumed the diaphragm and jelly. Three and a half years later we had our second daughter. I waited until #2 was 3-4 years old, and then I had an outpatient tubal ligation, which was very easy. ***I ***had the sterilization, as I knew that even if I lost my husband and children, I would not want to have any more children, whereas my husband would want another family if he lost us. I was 43 at that time.

Our children grew up close with minimal competition. We were able to pay for their education and vacations, paying their own way completely without financial aid, so that the money could go to other students. They are both now grown and finishing up their graduate school education, both professionals, one married. Both girls are very close to us and to each other.

THAT is what raising a family is like with access to ‘artificial’ contraception and sterilization. No unplanned pregnancies. NO three children in three years. No moving in with relatives or wondering how you’re going to feel and clothe them, let alone pay for college. No worrying after each act. No learning all those complicated ‘methods’.

I have many friends (and I love them dearly) who could’ve written your post word for word, so this is one conservative Catholic you can’t get riled. Besides, your point of view makes for good discussion.

The diaphragm was almost my contraceptive method of choice back when I gave up on NFP (before I realized my fertility was a natural wonder, not a disease). Because no contraceptive is 100% effective, I worried about possibly conceiving a child in the presence of such chemicals (hey, aren’t you an environmentalist ). That worry, plus possible UTI concerns, led me to toss the diapragm unused. Did these things ever concern you? I just couldn’t get past them.

Where I live, families like yours are the norm. They are beautiful families, but the bottom line is we’re not replacing ourselves fast enough and without some couples willing to have a few more, we’re facing a serious population decline.

We have four children. None were planned, as NFP is ignored by our local medical community, and the education I tried to obtain for myself was inadequate. We always appreciated that sex (even contracepted) sometimes creates children, so we made sure that pregnancy was never a diaster. My children rarely fight. I stay home with them and we are able to give them many advantages (not all material, of course). Paying for their higher education will not be a problem. Because of our beliefs, we feel it is most important to teach our children to care for the world around us and to share our resources whenever possible.

I am now, happily, much better educated in fertility awareness/NFP (the only truly environmentally-friendly family planning ) and wish that others, regardless of religious beliefs, could be well educated in it too. (Much appreciation for Toni Weschler’s “non-Catholic” efforts.) I appreciate its simplicity, have no fear of unplanned pregnancy and love every aspect of my marriage (especially intimacy). I agree it is good to plan your family carefully (and prayerfully for Catholics). I just disagree with a one-size-fits-all plan.

 

[Good_Daughter]

I do question though, how you do it? Go to church every Sunday with your orthodox beliefs and watch the cafeteria’s walk down the isle. When I go I have enough respect for your belief and my personal integrity to sit it out!

Even the “orthodox” sit it out sometimes. “Cafeterias” have to make their own choices. I pray for them and I hope they pray for me.

 

[Good_Daughter]

I am saying that for non-Catholics, contraception is not a problem. Spacing is not a problem. Planning for your kids’ future and their education is much less of a problem. Life is simpler, easier and happier. “Free love” and “I got to be me” has nothing to do with it. Building a happy stable marriage to support a manageable family size has everything to do with it.

As an educated Catholic, I find birth control is not a problem. Spacing is not a problem. Education and future plans for my kids? Not a problem, in fact, I’m really excited about it. My life is simple, easy (if anyone’s life is really easy?) and happy. I doubt yours is moreso due to contraceptive use, but then again it’s hard to judge.

I think contraceptive users have to deal with contraceptive side effects while NFP users have to deal with learning some basic biology and varying degrees of abstinence. For those who don’t know or understand Catholic teaching, the first option is usually preferable. For those who know and understand, the second is ususally preferable. It’s not always a quality of life issue.

 

[1234]

As an educated Catholic, I find birth control is not a problem. Spacing is not a problem. Education and future plans for my kids? Not a problem, in fact, I’m really excited about it. My life is simple, easy (if anyone’s life is really easy?) and happy. I doubt yours is more

so due to contraceptive use, but then again it’s hard to judge.

I think contraceptive users have to deal with contraceptive side effects while NFP users have to deal with learning some basic biology and varying degrees of abstinence. For those who don’t know or understand Catholic teaching, the first option is usually preferable. For those who know and understand, the second is ususally preferable. It’s not always a quality of life issue.

The barrier methods are very reliable and have no side effects.

You don’t have to use OC.

 

[rick43235]

I honestly cannot believe that I have just read this…what is this Pleasantville?

The only thing that comes to mind is “are you serious?”

Actually, no nevermind, what I would humbly ask is that you and I talk within the private message format within CAF and that way I can provide you with my address. I would like you to come to my house, look my 2 most recent children in the eyes and tell them that they do not belong in our family as we should have only had 2 children instead of the 4 that we currently have. Wow you make me want to have 10+ children.

Let me tell you that you have no idea what it is like to raise a family with no artificial contraception. NONE! We do it and, thank you very much, we do a great job at it. Hmmm, and something else to think about as you sip you Chai Latte with your pinky so high in the air, my wife does not even work :bigyikes: The horror! How can a family of 6 make it these days with only one income? How is it possible? Wanna talk?

You post was very arrogant and very self-centered and it is painfully obvious that you are not Catholic and you (like so many others) have absolutely NO understanding of your marriage vows and your dedication to you marriage, your husband and your God. You don’t know what it is like to give everything for your children. And no that does not mean the best clothes, the newest clother, the brand new shoes, the new video game system or gadget. It does not mean getting them everything that they ask for or that they want.

Your post is very disturbing, but it is sad but true in the world that we live in. “You don’t make the rules” is very (very) relevant in what you have posted. You don’t make the rules, God does. God makes the rules about life, about money, about sex, about death, about hmmmm…everything.

It is this contraceptive…only 2.5 children per household…mentality that is what is slowly becoming a detriment to society. It is this “free love” and “I got to be me” mindset that has this society as we know it in a tail spin that we will have a hard time getting out of any time in the near future.

I am trying my best not to be inconsiderate or disrespectful to you and you lifestyle, but I have seen this card played so many times before. Heck, I even have a brother and his wife that sound so much like you. You post is not that original. Sad to say that there are many out there that feel that this is what “works for them” and it is so self centered it drives me up a wall.

I still cannot believe that this mindset is so prevalent in this day and age. What is it about a Catholic forum that prompted you to post something that is so anti-Catholic? Are you here to stir up trouble? Do you not understand what the Church teaches in this regards? Oh, wait. That is it. I have it now. You have no formal understanding of the Church’s teachings about sexuality. Ah ha. Nevermind. We can stop here. Why? Because you have taken something that you clearly do not understand and tried to make this an “issue” that is up for debate and it is not. Take time to research what the Church teaches about this and why, once you have then this discussion can proceed, until that point, then there is nothing more to say.

Easy Big Fella. Calm down before you have a stroke.

She didn’t say that you had to give two of your kids back. And she didn’t say anything disrespectfully anti-Catholic either - unless you think that simple disagreement is anti-Catholic. I have no statistics with which to back this up, but just from what I have observed, most people (Catholic and non-Catholic alike) live more like her that like you. She and her family have found a way that works for them, you’ve found a way that works for you. I’m happy for both of you.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Easy Big Fella. Calm down before you have a stroke.

She didn’t say that you had to give two of your kids back. And she didn’t say anything disrespectfully anti-Catholic either - unless you think that simple disagreement is anti-Catholic. I have no statistics with which to back this up, but just from what I have observed, most people (Catholic and non-Catholic alike) live more like her that like you. She and her family have found a way that works for them, you’ve found a way that works for you. I’m happy for both of you.

Nothing disrespectfully anti-Catholic? I would have to disagree.

My husband and I are both ardent environmentalists. I strongly believe that a couple should have no more than two children, so that we reproduce ourselves in an overpopulated (and very expensive) world but don’t add to the population.

Open to life at all times is the Catholic teaching.

I used a diaphragm with spermicidal jelly. I stopped using it and got pregnant and had a daughter, then resumed the diaphragm and jelly.

Against Catholic teaching as shown by the Catechism below

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. **In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. .** . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

Emphasis mine

Three and a half years later we had our second daughter. I waited until #2 was 3-4 years old, and then I had an outpatient tubal ligation, which was very easy.

Again a tubal ligation is against the teaching of the Church with regards to being open to life.

THAT is what raising a family is like with access to ‘artificial’ contraception and sterilization. No unplanned pregnancies. NO three children in three years.

Again this is promoting a lifestyle that is contrary to what the Church continues to teach. I know that this post by her was just trying to “show” what a non-Catholic does, but that does not make it right in the eyes of the Church.

No moving in with relatives or wondering how you’re going to feel and clothe them, let alone pay for college. No worrying after each act. No learning all those complicated ‘methods’.

This makes it seem as if those that are open to life and want to have a large family will struggle with future necessities. It also leads one to believe that the NFP methods are “complicated” when in all actuality they are not that difficult.

It is clear that the vast majority of dioceses in the US and Europe have walked away from Humanae Vitae and are trying to move on from what is probably the biggest mistake the RCC has ever made, and there have been some lulus. That decree has torn the RCC apart.

Where are the statistics that show this? This has to be one of the most absurd things that I have heard when it relates to Humanae Vitae “the biggest mistake the RCC has ever made.” Have you read Humanae Vitae? Were the words spoken by Pope Paul VI not true? Did he not forsee what the effects of contraception would be? Please take the time to research that.

So Rick, I just want to point out that there were several times in her post that she mentioned things that were anti-Catholic. Too often we tend to follow the mantra of “I’m okay, you’re okay” and heaven forbid we ever say anything about anyone else’s lifestyle that they choose. Is that what happened when Jesus encountered the woman at the well? Did He simply affirm her in her lifestyle?

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

The barrier methods are very reliable and have no side effects.

You don’t have to use OC.

Just against the teachings of the Church and are intrinsically evil.

Look at what Pope Paul VI said would be the result of the acceptance of contraception and you will see what the side effects are.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Down, boy. Quit foaming at the mouth.

You assume many things. You assume that I’m rich,that I buy the latest brands, clothes, gadgets, drink chai lattes (?), all because I said that we paid for our children’s college educations.

Sorry, bud. No chai lattes in our house–whatever that means.

I posted on a thread entitled Miserable with NFP.The posters apparently are all ** Catholic **and they have told their sad stories on a long thread, which has obviously echoed many people’s experiences with NFP. If you are unhappy because they don’t tow the party line, YELL at them, not me!

I am saying that for non-Catholics, contraception is not a problem. Spacing is not a problem. Planning for your kids’ future and their education is much less of a problem. Life is simpler, easier and happier. “Free love” and “I got to be me” has nothing to do with it. Building a happy stable marriage to support a manageable family size has everything to do with it.

Who is self-centered? We were able to give our money away, support other students and worthy causes, do volunteer work.

I don’t hear about trad Catholics adopting. If they believe in the virtues of large families, why not adopt a few instead of having them?

I think that those Catholics who posted after me and after your tirade said it all.

Just to let you know, there are good Catholic families that adopt, take Dr. Ray Guarendi for example, a Catholic psychologist and father of 10, all adopted. www.drray.com

 

[graceandglory]

The barrier methods are very reliable and have no side effects.

You don’t have to use OC.

Dear 1234,

The wisdom of God is foolishness to man.

It’s okay that you don’t understand Catholic teaching against Contraception. It’s based on Scripture, and it has to do with our relationship with the Lord, and whether we trust Him in all things or we don’t.

That’s okay that you don’t understand. You should at least find out the truth first, before you decide if you are for or against it. Most Catholics are sadly unaware of the reasons it is a mortal sin to contracept.
To be honest with yourself and with God, do yourself a favor and order this free CD:
Contraception: Why Not.
from: One More Soul. Dr Janet Smith is the best I know who can explain Catholic moral teaching and why we shouldn’t use BC.

omsoul.com/

 

[1234]

Dear 1234,

The wisdom of God is foolishness to man.

It’s okay that you don’t understand Catholic teaching against Contraception. It’s based on Scripture, and it has to do with our relationship with the Lord, and whether we trust Him in all things or we don’t.

That’s okay that you don’t understand. You should at least find out the truth first, before you decide if you are for or against it. Most Catholics are sadly unaware of the reasons it is a mortal sin to contracept.
To be honest with yourself and with God, do yourself a favor and order this free CD:
Contraception: Why Not.
from: One More Soul. Dr Janet Smith is the best I know who can explain Catholic moral teaching and why we shouldn’t use BC.

omsoul.com/

My last post was a simple response to those who worry about the ‘side effects’ of contraception. I replied that barrier methods have no side effects and are very reliable. i was commenting on methodology.

I understand the Catholic reasons against contraception.

I reject them.

Most Christians reject them as well.

Most Catholics reject them also.

 

[catherineajt]

My last post was a simple response to those who worry about the ‘side effects’ of contraception. I replied that barrier methods have no side effects and are very reliable. i was commenting on methodology.

I understand the Catholic reasons against contraception.

I reject them.

Most Christians reject them as well.

Most Catholics reject them also.

And therefore, most Catholics are committing heresy against the Church.

 

[kage_ar]

My last post was a simple response to those who worry about the ‘side effects’ of contraception. I replied that barrier methods have no side effects and are very reliable. i was commenting on methodology.

I understand the Catholic reasons against contraception.

I reject them.

Most Christians reject them as well.

Most Catholics reject them also.

Have you personally spoken to all of the Catholics in your town/state/country about these intimate details of their lives to make such assumptions?

Most Catholics that I know follow the teachings of Holy Mother Church.

 

[whatevergirl]

My dh and I follow NFP-and now we have discovered the Creighton method–and we like it, although, it has been different to a degree…but I think that what we need to look at is…what did people do before birth control? Marriages didn’t crumble due to abstaining from sex–as a matter of fact, birth control caused marriages to crumble over the past say 50 years, more than they did preceding the days of artifical birth control.

That’s gotta make you wonder if we should have left well enough alone.

 

[Milkandhoney]

I wish I understood the Catholic teaching on birth control long before I started being sexual. My entire life would have been different. People say you can’t miss what you never had, well… I miss that life I passed up.
My husband and I have a wonderful marriage of 30 years. We have 3 beautiful children. We have financial security well beyond our dreams.
I practiced artificial birth control before I was married, and in my married life. My husband had a vasectomy after our third child. I really didn’t think much about it. I felt like the church had no business advising me how to run my sex life and having untold numbers of children to raise was not appealing.

God has a funny way of changing people.
Sometimes he gets a person’s attention in a dramatic way, sometimes, as was my case, he gets a person’s attention in increments.

I’ll share with you a bit of what might be understood as a ‘conversion’ story, although I’m not sure ‘conversion’ is really the correct term, I consider myself a traveling Catholic on a life long journey, a journey that is woefully slow and believe me, I stumble a lot!

I believe in God. When I look around at the earth and into space, the only logical explanation in my mind is that someone/thing much greater then myself exists, this is who I call God. Now, perhaps an even greater miracle is that I can relate to this God on some level. I pray to this God. I ask things of this God. I am continually discovering things about this God. I am afraid of this God, but I need and love this God.
About 8 years ago, I thought I was really ‘there’ with my faith life. I was going to church every Sunday, I taught Catechism, participated in classes and just had a lovely thing going with where I was in my life and my faith.
Through a series of events, I ended up going on a trip to Rome which completely changed my life.

I didn’t know any of the other people on the trip so I booked a single room and looked forward to enjoying the peace, quiet and solitude.
This also meant a lot of alone time for me in the midst of spectacular Churches, ruins and artwork.

To say that God spoke to me during those 12 days would be an understatement. God rained down angels from heaven with all sorts of messages!

I spent my days with a map in hand traveling all over Rome and because I was alone I was able to spend as long as I wanted in places all over the city. I was able to sit and write and pray when the mood struck, in short I came to discover my religion in a whole new light.
My ‘conversion’ did not happen over night, nor is it over, it is on-going. Slowly, as my understanding of what it meant to be a part of this Church began to change, my understanding of what the Church is in this world changed. My understanding of God’s plan for his creation changed. My understanding of who I am as an ‘American Catholic’ changed. My understanding of what my role is as a Catholic continues to change.
The first thing I did when I came home from Rome was to triple what I was contributing to the church financially. I went to many masses while in Rome, I heard many languages being spoken but the same mass being celebrated. Watching people from all over the world turn and offer one another a sign of peace was powerful. I realized as an American, I live in the world’s most wealthy country and because of that, I have a responsibility to contribute the greatest portion I can afford so that the world’s wealth can be better distributed.
The world is not suffering because it does not have the resources to support all of the life God creates, the world suffers because it’s inhabitants have set up governments and lifestyles that are self serving. God wants us to share the gifts he gives.

Man has struggled with the needs/desires of the flesh against the needs of our soul since the time of Adam and Eve. God is forever calling us to place the needs of the soul above and before the needs of the flesh. He challenges us to consider the things beyond this world. We are weak, and in our weakness we rely on what we can see and feel and hear. We make our choices and direct our lives according to what we feel will cause us and our loved ones the least amount of pain. We don’t like to see or experience suffering, it hurts to see another suffer, especially a loved one. God understands this and He loves us for this trait.
Children are an outward sign of our love for one another, they are not ‘burdens’ or ‘things’ or ‘choices’. At least they are not supposed to be that for the Christian.
We live in a world where there are a lot of things that influence us and blind us to the truth. Our society values human life only by it’s output. That is why children, the elderly and the handicapped are disposed of, put away and pitied.
Our society is as prejudice against large families just as it is against the poor. We don’t like to imagine the stress or the sacrifice that having a large family might bring. We worry about how to feed, clothe and house a large family.
We have so little faith.
Marriage is designed to reflect the love of the trinity to the world. Unfortunately our marriages don’t reflect this image very well. We often reflect society’s idea of what a marriage should look like and the result is a lot of broken hearts, families and lives.
We should not be tearing one another down, we need to be supporting and praying for one another. When someone feels they cannot deal with NFP or is staunchly against NFP try not to judge them, we do not know their struggles and we do not know what part of the journey they are on. What we can do is pray for them and to share our own stories and struggles.

I was sad with this discussion because it frustrates me to know that we are so far from understanding the lessons the Church is trying to teach. Society has yet to catch up with the church not the other way around.

 

[newbetx]

My last post was a simple response to those who worry about the ‘side effects’ of contraception. I replied that barrier methods have no side effects and are very reliable. i was commenting on methodology.

I understand the Catholic reasons against contraception.

I reject them.

Most Christians reject them as well.

Most Catholics reject them also.

What you say is true. Even the last statement. At least in America.

I’m curious. 1234, Are you of any particular faith?
What DO you feel about families with more than two children?
Do you believe that if the RCC “allowed” ABC, the world’s “population problem” would go away?
What do you think the biggest problem with NFP might be?

 

[johnnyjoe]

I have personally been offended by those in the NFP movement who use mind poison against those who use ABC. Things like comparing divorce rates, or it puts a false note into the relationship. The very small community of folks who use NFP are also very religious and therefore unlikely to divorce. It’s not the ABC that causes the divorce it’s underlying selfishness of the individual that causes the divorce.

I am personally happy with what we have and am happy for those of you who choose differently due to your faith, your belief or you wishes.

I do question though, how you do it? Go to church every Sunday with your orthodox beliefs and watch the cafeteria’s walk down the isle. When I go I have enough respect for your belief and my personal integrity to sit it out!

My wife and I have contracepted, and we have used - are currently using - NFP. No one said you CAN’T have a happy marriage with contraception. You won’t find that in any Church document, or NFP teaching manual.

But I find it ironic that you come to this board confessing your lapse in your faith, and see no connection to that lapse and this practice in your marriage? It seems you see enough of a disconnect to recognize the hypocrisy.

It is not God’s will for any marriage to be unhappy, nor is it God’s will that we should come to see our fertility as a disease that needs fixing. A cross? Certainly, but not a disease.

To that end, it is just part of being a “practicing” catholic to know that there are other sinners in the pew with you, and some are struggling with the crosses that fertility brings. That is also why we teach NFP - because we have contracepted…

All marriages have this struggle, for fertility and sexuality are intimately connected. Sex is for marriage, and children are for marriage. Our personal wishes are often what gets set aside.

I believe God gives you children not just to Bless you, but to CHANGE you, to make you come out of yourself and become something bigger or better than even you think you can become. When a couple chooses the convenient over the troublesome, they choose a distance from God that makes hearing Him all the harder. It doesn’t silence God, but makes Him harder to hear - sometimes to the point they just don’t see the point in listening much…

“Even the very wise cannot see the end of all things, Frodo”

 

[1234]

What you say is true. Even the last statement. At least in America.

I’m curious. 1234, Are you of any particular faith? What DO you feel about families with more than two children?
Do you believe that if the RCC “allowed” ABC, the world’s “population problem” would go away?
What do you think the biggest problem with NFP might be?
This thread *was started and is perpetuated by ***Catholics ***who are "Miserable with NFP". that’s the title of thread.

I posted a summary about how a non-Catholic approaches family planning, using ‘artificial’ contraception, much easier, more reliable, safer and with much more predictable outcomes.

I did not start this thread or give it the title.

I am not miserable with NFP because I don’t practice it.

If YOU want to argue about NFP, argue with those who have posted on this thread, complaining bitterly about how this ‘method’ has fouled up their marriages and family life.

Don’t try to pick a fight with me.

 

[johnnyjoe]

This is what family planning is like for a non-Catholic.

My husband and I are both ardent environmentalists. I strongly believe that a couple should have no more than two children, so that we reproduce ourselves in an overpopulated (and very expensive) world but don’t add to the population.

We waited two years after our wedding before we conceived, so that our marriage was solid. I used a diaphragm with spermicidal jelly. I stopped using it and got pregnant and had a daughter, then resumed the diaphragm and jelly. Three and a half years later we had our second daughter. I waited until #2 was 3-4 years old, and then I had an outpatient tubal ligation, which was very easy. ***I ***had the sterilization, as I knew that even if I lost my husband and children, I would not want to have any more children, whereas my husband would want another family if he lost us. I was 43 at that time.

Our children grew up close with minimal competition. We were able to pay for their education and vacations, paying their own way completely without financial aid, so that the money could go to other students. They are both now grown and finishing up their graduate school education, both professionals, one married. Both girls are very close to us and to each other.

THAT is what raising a family is like with access to ‘artificial’ contraception and sterilization. No unplanned pregnancies. NO three children in three years. No moving in with relatives or wondering how you’re going to feel and clothe them, let alone pay for college. No worrying after each act. No learning all those complicated ‘methods’.

It is clear that the vast majority of dioceses in the US and Europe have walked away from Humanae Vitae and are trying to move on from what is probably the biggest mistake the RCC has ever made, and there have been some lulus. That decree has torn the RCC apart.

You have chosen a secular life. It appears you have lived it to date as nobly as this secular world would ask. I’m not sure those decisions qualify you as a particularly profound critic of the Church.

Humanae Vitae has indeed caused great separation - and predicted many of the evils our world has borne witness to… Is China’s repressive reproductive control process “environmentally sound”? Perhaps you may agree… You may see children as a great detriment to the future of our planet.

This points to the crux of the problem - you see children as the focus - the ills of this world can be pinned on children. The using up of precious resources, and we should only want to “replace” ourselves.

Well, we aren’t animals. That may be a big statement to you, but we don’t “control” our future by selective breeding. The myth of overpopulation comes not from too many children, but from those who lack the imagination to create a better world for all the children of the world, so they think the world THEY like should be preserved - as THEY think it should be done.

What is really ironic is the lack of trust absolutely insures that your offspring will have no say in the matter… they will be out-bred by those who trust in the future more, and will have more children as a result.

Contraception produces spiritual geldings. I mean it all sounds good and clean and neat, but ultimately contraception is empty. It is a worship of the sterile. If you can accept infertile sex between a man and a woman as “normative”, then you must accept infertile sex between a man and a man as just as normative. If sexual union is drained of its dangerous mystery by purposeful sterility, it is also drained of it’s deepest meanings.

Will it be meaningless? Of course not, but it will be something far short of what God has willed it to mean… and that is a great shame.

 

[newbetx]

This thread brought up a question for me.

After dd #3 I had some bleeding issues that led to a hysterectomy, right there in a split second choice. And I do not regret it for a minute, I feel like my prayers were answered. I am soooo happy not to have to deal with NFP, or the chance of another child. I am just not the motherly type. I barely have the patience for the kids I have. Dh is totally the nuturing one in our family.

SO a Catholic friend and I were talking about this, and she says the way I feel is as bad as if I had chosen to be sterilized. And the fact that I am totally not open to more babies-ie not looking or wanting a miracle-that dh and I should be celibate. I told her I would have probably started using some sort of barrier method anyway, so she thinks I am in a state of mortal sin.

I truly disagree with the church on this one. Why drive people to poverty or depression? Why put such strain on a marriage that the one act that is supposed to bring us closer can drive a wedge? I just think it is pointless. After all, NFP is IMO not much different from a non arbortive type of BC. Both ways you are trying to prevent a pregnancy.

No, you are not in a state of mortal sin because you think your family is enough. sigh. If I had more, I would have been driven nuts and left years ago! Well, I don’t have a crystal ball, but there are days that are really tough to be a parent. I really do love my kids, but it’s just really tough some days dealing with “normal” kids. I don’t know how those that have kids that are more challenging do it sometimes.

There is a huge difference in ABC and NFP. NFP requires a lot of trust and cooperation and sacrafice. ABC does not. I’d suggest you read about Theology of the Body and let us know what you think of it. I like Christopher West’s approach.

 

[graceandglory]

Marriages didn’t crumble due to abstaining from sex–as a matter of fact, birth control caused marriages to crumble over the past say 50 years, more than they did preceding the days of artifical birth control.

That’s gotta make you wonder if we should have left well enough alone.

More than half of all marriages today end in divorce. The rates of divorce among Catholics and protestants who practice ABC is the same as the rest of the world.

Statistics show that the divorce rate for Catholic married couples who don’t use ABC is 3%. Now how’s that for a reason not to contracept?

I just had this conversation with a friend today, and we thought about all of our protestant and Catholic friends we’ve known over the past 20+ years. The divorces only occurred among those couples who used ABC from the get-go.

It breaks my heart to know the solution to the divorce epidemic, and not be able to convince them otherwise.