misinterpretations and misapplications of Vatican II

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Yes, I’m quite familiar with those reforms. The difference (and it a very big difference) there is that those did not deny the organic development nor did they upend observance and mission of the existing Order itself. Rather, they split and formed new observances of the rule.
The reform of Cluny did not. Neither did the modern reforms, unless a few was able to reach the headquarters which are capable the change the whole order. .

As for the organic development there is no guaranty that everything which is natural is good. The evil is inside our nature through the concupiscence, and moves us away from God.
 
Bad Faith-zapping Vatican II apologies aside, which frankly so very often stink of an almost relativistic, materialistic or evolutionary mentality (hence the Faith-zapping), no one can deny that the Church entered a legitimate crisis following the Second Vatican Council, as clearly attested to by the facts, be they statistical or historical in focus.

That this crisis must be addressed and corrected is a logical necessity. We see what happens in this world when the Catholic Church spends too much time, as it were, sitting in the corner pondering her own identiy. This world objectively needs a strong voice of opposition to the tidal wave of disillusionment that threatens to rob mankind of its God-given dignity, which being succesfully deprived degrades him and opens the doors to every sort of disorder and godless, shameless tyranny. Holy Mother Church has a duty to be truly Militant on earth. No one has yet got it into his head to imagine we have been given some reprieve of this duty. We have not. The Church needs to clean her own house of the filth within her then rally to the defense of all things holy and sacred.

Following the Protestant Reformation, the Church rallied and haulted the tidal wave of reformation by inaugurating her own Counter-reformation at Trent. Since that time the world has been assaulted with revolution after revolution that seek to replace our culture with some contrived, manufactured and godless one, which always spells societal disaster. The family, the final bastion and last line of defense is beginning to show its own signs of capitulation, and with the family goes Christian inculturation and Christian Tradition. If a programme of Counter-reformation was fitting to combat a climate of reformation, then it follows that a programme of Counter-revolution would be logically apt following a disastrous and long period of frequent revolutions.

Pax,
Tim
 
I yearn for “traditional times”, too. Times when there were would be long lines every Saturday afternoon for confession, times when Mass would be so crowded on Sunday that you could barely get in. Times when people would never think of talking unnecessarily in Church, and all children older than 2 or 3 would sit quietly during Mass without toys. Times when not everyone would receive Communion because they recognized sin for what it was and didn’t think of communion as their “right.” I long for times people would genuflect or bow every time they passed in front of the Tabernacle. I long for times when people would have never thought of such things as clown Masses or puppet Masses.

In short, I yearn for “traditional times” when people knew who they were and who God was, and believed that salvation was a gift, not a right.
Excellent!

I was born in the 1970s and thus have no experience of the more ‘traditional times’ but that is what I am looking for now. The church must recover its Catholic identity and dealing with the 'spirit of V2 is the way to do that.
 
The reform of Cluny did not.
The Cluniac reforms were directed against abuses, many of which came from without, rather than against legitimate organic development from within.
Neither did the modern reforms, unless a few was able to reach the headquarters which are capable the change the whole order.
I beg to differ but let’s drop it.
As for the organic development there is no guaranty that everything which is natural is good. The evil is inside our nature through the concupiscence, and moves us away from God.
The implications of that remark on the development of religious Orders and congregations are rather sinister.
 
This is very true. As the salaries and benefits of teaching no-tuition public schools were going up, with no subsidies or vouchers the U.S. Catholic schools were becoming quickly disadvantaged.

Absolutely, as the nuns & brothers left their orders…both the Sacred Heart Academy & the boys high school closed in my city closed. In 1965 a
co-ed Catholic school, run by the Benedictines opened. However, the teachers were mostly members of the laity . Many were not even Catholic. With no nuns teaching for FREE, the tuition became exhorbitant. The tuition for that high school per year now…is only $750. less the the tuition for a year at our local college.

One good thing we learned from this is that the newer orders of nuns who have teaching/nursing etc. as their charism
benedictinesofmary.org/upload/files/Summer%2009%2007-21-29_Layout%201.pdf
MUST be paid some salary. If they are bound by vows of poverty it should be held, in their name, by their order.

Two years ago, I went to the home of order of the RSCJ. nuns who taught me. Few remained in the order, (read the book “Changing Habits” about the destruction of this once noble group founded by St. Madeleine Sophie Barat & they are struggling for money to take care of the sick & elderly nuns who gave their whole lives to the Church.
However, there was already a perceived feeling in the air during my Catholic high school days (1961-1965) that the ongoing council would be changing the way we should all be thinking (Latin requirement was being dropped and religion classes were getting confusing, I almost flunked senior year Apologetics) and the enrollments were plummetting so fast (even before we read the documents) two high schools in our league were forced to close their doors by 1965. The surviving ones eventually had to consolidate, take on non-Catholics, and even become co-ed, which goes back to the growing feminist movement which you addressed. I would say, if anything, the council didn’t help the religion programs and declining numbers in the Catholic schools, though they may have exacerbated the decline. But then I don’t think the council was called for the purpose of restoring Catholic school enrollments either.
There is one short Vatican II document on Catholic education. One never sees it quoted on message boards, nor have I ever heard it addressed by any member of the clergy. Personally, I find the document both confusing & lacking. There is much said about “Christian” education but, the section concerning **Catholic education is very ambiguous. **

“But let teachers recognize that the Catholic school depends upon them almost entirely for the accomplishment of its goals and programs.(27) They should therefore be very carefully prepared so that both in secular and religious knowledge they are equipped with suitable qualifications and also with a pedagogical skill that is in keeping with the findings of the contemporary world. Intimately linked in charity to one another and to their students and endowed with an apostolic spirit, may teachers by their life as much as by their instruction bear witness to Christ, the unique Teacher.”

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_gravissimum-educationis_en.html
 
Related to the education the 20th Century brought something entirely new. The education is no more for the elite (in the time of the Council college education was open for less than 10% even in the technically developed countries), and also the education which was the privilege of the Church is suddenly highly secularized.

In this environment the the Council could not gave definite answers, only defined the previous principles, and expressed hope that the future development will resolve the problems., acknowledging the fact that the Church is not able to keep strict control over the education.

As for the Christian vs Catholic only decadent people and eras define themselves by the difference from others, and by the deficiencies of others. Christ wants us

Eph 3: 9 to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things:
There is one short Vatican II document on Catholic education. One never sees it quoted on message boards, nor have I ever heard it addressed by any member of the clergy. Personally, I find the document both confusing & lacking. There is much said about “Christian” education but, the section concerning **Catholic education is very ambiguous. **

“But let teachers recognize that the Catholic school depends upon them almost entirely for the accomplishment of its goals and programs.(27) They should therefore be very carefully prepared so that both in secular and religious knowledge they are equipped with suitable qualifications and also with a pedagogical skill that is in keeping with the findings of the contemporary world. Intimately linked in charity to one another and to their students and endowed with an apostolic spirit, may teachers by their life as much as by their instruction bear witness to Christ, the unique Teacher.”

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_gravissimum-educationis_en.html
 
High Schools. Between 1965 and 2002 the number of diocesan high schools fell from 1,566 to 786. At the same time the number of students dropped from almost 700,000 to 386,000.
Parochial Grade Schools. There were 10,503 parochial grade schools in 1965 and 6,623 in 2002. The number of students went from 4.5 million to 1.9 million.
Statistics alone prove nothing. Especially when one takes certain particulars of the Catholic Church in the U.S. and tries to insinuate that they apply to the world-wide Church. The parochial school system in the U.S ,as it developed over time, is unique to the U.S. and is not the norm eveywhere else. Certainly not in my country. I am not completely familiar with the Catholic Separate School Systems in other provinces so I will only speak as to what I actually do know and that is the Catholic School System in Ontario.
Since Confederation [1867] the Catholic Schools have been funded [in the most part] by provincial tax dollars, not by the local parish so right there we have a competely different dynamic. Also funding was not always equal to funding for Public schools and until 1984 there was no funding for Catholic Schools past Grade 10. this meant that that the majority of Catholic School children did not get a full Catholic education throughout grades K to 13 unless they either lived in a large city where there were private High Schools [and there were not many of them] or had parents who could afford to send them away to a boarding school.
I began my teaching career in 1967 in a city at the other end of the province from where I grew up. Far from decling enrollment, the Separate School system was expanding in leaps and bounds. New schools were being built each year to accomadate the growing number of students. New subdivisions were popping up all over the place and where there was a new subdivision ther had to be new schools and natuarally, or so it seemed, a new church building as well. This shift in demographics didn’t effect the older schools in core areas for many years either. The one area that didn’t have much growth for the next almost 20 years was in the High Schools. The few existing ones were so over packed that they needed to turn students away.
Even as far along as the late 1970’s and into the 1990’s. The Separate Schools continued to expand. In the 1980’s, I was teaching in a different city in a different diocese. In many areas of that particular school board’s jurisdiction, no sooner was a new school built than several portable classrooms had to be erected on site. For example, the school I was teaching in in 1984 had to be rebuilt. the new building had a capacity of 700 students for Grades K-6. Within two months we had 6 portables put up and within 3 years, there were 14! One years I had 49 students in a small portable classroom. There were 5 other Separate Schools within a 4 mile radius.
Once the government agreed to full funding for all Catholic Schools. including High Schools, in 1984, the number of Catholic High Schools boomed. They were as packed as the grade schools and some needed just as many, if not more, portables attached.
In recent years, [mainly beginning around the late 1990’s], several of the grade schools in certain areas have been closed although not as many as those in the public system. However, new high schools [and grade schools]continue to be built, both English and French Catholic Schools.
Now, what can I make of this? Can I say that the rapid expansion of the Catholic School System in Ontario that began in the 1950’s and continued for almost 50 years is a result of Vatican II or that the more recent closing of some schools is also a result? Only if I want to push a certain agenda and refuse to recognize all the various factors involved. I recognize that the Catholic Church is a big worldwide tent, not just confined to my own little part of it and what happens or has happenned in my little area is not necessarily true of the whole. To argue otherwise is disengenious at best.
 
Once the government agreed to full funding for all Catholic Schools. including High Schools, in 1984, the number of Catholic High Schools boomed. They were as packed as the grade schools and some needed just as many, if not more, portables attached.
Government-funded schools are not private. And unless you live in a Catholic country they are CINO. They must abide by whatever the government tells them, be it quotas, their curriculum, their philosophy, etc. Whether they’re packed or not is irrelevant.
 
Thanks for this data. This indicates that the US decline of the number of Catholic schools is due to the double payment: taxes and tuition.

We still shall recognize that the cost of the education in the US is about 2/3 of the public education, and the test scores are higher. The Church provides significantly more efficient education than the state or the municipalities. May be this has to be credited to the Council, which pointed the attention to the education.
Statistics alone prove nothing. Especially when one takes certain particulars of the Catholic Church in the U.S. and tries to insinuate that they apply to the world-wide Church. The parochial school system in the U.S ,as it developed over time, is unique to the U.S. and is not the norm eveywhere else. Certainly not in my country. I am not completely familiar with the Catholic Separate School Systems in other provinces so I will only speak as to what I actually do know and that is the Catholic School System in Ontario.
Since Confederation [1867] the Catholic Schools have been funded [in the most part] by provincial tax dollars, not by the local parish so right there we have a competely different dynamic. Also funding was not always equal to funding for Public schools and until 1984 there was no funding for Catholic Schools past Grade 10. this meant that that the majority of Catholic School children did not get a full Catholic education throughout grades K to 13 unless they either lived in a large city where there were private High Schools [and there were not many of them] or had parents who could afford to send them away to a boarding school.
I began my teaching career in 1967 in a city at the other end of the province from where I grew up. Far from decling enrollment, the Separate School system was expanding in leaps and bounds. New schools were being built each year to accomadate the growing number of students. New subdivisions were popping up all over the place and where there was a new subdivision ther had to be new schools and natuarally, or so it seemed, a new church building as well. This shift in demographics didn’t effect the older schools in core areas for many years either. The one area that didn’t have much growth for the next almost 20 years was in the High Schools. The few existing ones were so over packed that they needed to turn students away.
Even as far along as the late 1970’s and into the 1990’s. The Separate Schools continued to expand. In the 1980’s, I was teaching in a different city in a different diocese. In many areas of that particular school board’s jurisdiction, no sooner was a new school built than several portable classrooms had to be erected on site. For example, the school I was teaching in in 1984 had to be rebuilt. the new building had a capacity of 700 students for Grades K-6. Within two months we had 6 portables put up and within 3 years, there were 14! One years I had 49 students in a small portable classroom. There were 5 other Separate Schools within a 4 mile radius.
Once the government agreed to full funding for all Catholic Schools. including High Schools, in 1984, the number of Catholic High Schools boomed. They were as packed as the grade schools and some needed just as many, if not more, portables attached.
In recent years, [mainly beginning around the late 1990’s], several of the grade schools in certain areas have been closed although not as many as those in the public system. However, new high schools [and grade schools]continue to be built, both English and French Catholic Schools.
Now, what can I make of this? Can I say that the rapid expansion of the Catholic School System in Ontario that began in the 1950’s and continued for almost 50 years is a result of Vatican II or that the more recent closing of some schools is also a result? Only if I want to push a certain agenda and refuse to recognize all the various factors involved. I recognize that the Catholic Church is a big worldwide tent, not just confined to my own little part of it and what happens or has happenned in my little area is not necessarily true of the whole. To argue otherwise is disengenious at best.
 
Was “going back to their roots” supposed to mean that years (in some cases centuries) of organic development within those communities was to be all of a sudden discarded and community life and mission upended? It seems to me the answer is no.
The problem that you may be missing here, through no fault of your own, because you may not be aware of it, is that many founders explicitly mapped out how their communities were to develop and those maps were sealed with Papal Bulls that were never retracted. Therefore, the religious were found, under obedience, to follow those maps. Any development outside of those maps may have been organic, but was out of compliance.

The Church through Vatican II, through the direct letters of Paul VI to many religious communities and his personal intervention in rewriting their constitutions (he actually rewrote some constitutions), the intervention of Pope John Paul II in some general chapters of some orders, his demand to see every constitution and approve it himself, letters and documents that he sent to religious superiors and talks that he gave to councils of major superiors, and finally Vita Consacrata mandated that whatever was not in the map created by the founder and approved by the Church had to go.

I can speak best about my own Franciscan tradition and somewhat about the Carmelites, because I’m a Franciscan and I majored in Carmelite-Franciscan Theology. Clericalization was a deviation from the rule. Ordaining men and placing them in parishes without a community life, living as if they were diocesan priests was contrary to the rule. Prohibiting the non-ordained friars from governing was contrary to the rule. Limiting pastoral ministry to the ordained was contrary to the rule. The possession of property by some friars (cars, bank accounts, electronic devices) was contrary to the rule. Excusing oneself from community functions (prayer, recreation, meals, meetings, retreats, silence, study periods) because you had to attend a parish function or celebrate a parish mass, is contrary to the rule. Running ministries (parishes, schools and other institutions) for the benefit of the middle class and higher, is contrary to the rule. Creating a two class system of friars is contrary to the rule.

The rule allows for constitutions to be written that will fill-in the blanks. They should address what is not addressed in the rule. The constitutions cannot overrule the rule. Commitments to the bishops and the laity have to be within what is allowed by the rule and constitutions. Any exceptions must be approved by the Holy See. Exceptions were made all over the place, some were approved and others were not. The issue with exceptions is that exceptions are usually made for specific circumstances, not for the entire religious community or in perpetuity. Then they are no longer exceptions. They become the norm.

Experiences such as what had happened to the Franciscan family also happened to other religious families. To answer your question, yes returning to the vision and vision of the founder means that some things have to be dismantled. Does everything have to be dismantled? No, only that which is in conflict with the mandates of the founder.

The major orders of men are much more fortunate than the congregations. The major orders of men have rules that they follow. To go back, one simply has to look at the original rule and the founder’s comments on the rule. Then one has to look at the way the rule is lived and tweak here and there. Congregations do not have rules. That’s why they are congregations and not religious orders. They have statutes that they can change democratically. It was really up to the Holy See to approve the changes in those statutes. The requirement was that those statutes be changed to conform to the original statutes given by the founder. For example, if the founder did not have a habit in the original statute, the current statutes were not required to include one, even though the community may have adopted one at some point. If the original statutes said that the religious were to teach the poor and now they found themselves teaching the middle class, they were bound to teach the poor. However, here is the difficulty. Because these are statutes, not a rule, the religious community can democratically include the education of the middle class in their revised statutes, provided that it does not ignore the education of the poor. For some communities this was impossible. They did not have the means to stretch themselves across to socio-economic groups.

Like these examples, there are many other examples of rules and statutes that had to be addressed. Some things had to be dismantled and other things simply had to be modified. It all depended on the intent of the founder and the approval of the Holy See.

It is important to see that these changes that came after Vatican II were a response to deviations that took place long before Vatican II and needed to be corrected. A simple statement from one of our Ministers General is helpful in understanding how many religious communities addressed the situation that they had created for themselves prior to Vatican II. “We can no longer call ourselves Franciscan if all we do is produce parish priests. The mass production of parish priests is the proper role and duty of clerical institutes and diocesan seminaries. The proper role of the Franciscan is to live as brothers among the poor and the sinful, be it in a parish or under a bridge. We have deviated and must return to the vision of our Holy Father Francis.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I have to disagree with that last sentence. If one looks at it, one can, I think, see in the bolded statements in the first paragraph quoted above a clear connection with the misinterpretation of the Council (aka the “spirit of Vatican II”). There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with restoring the founders’ vision, but as you say, it became blurred. The “women’s lib” movement etc were not products (nor even byproducts) of the Council, but the principles of same fit nicely with the agenda of the hijackers who were responsible for the “spirit of Vatican II” which gives us yet another case of the “spirit of Vatican II” run amok.

With the exception of those who joined as part of the 1950s “convent overflow” that I mentioned in a previous post, women were called to, and entered, those communities because of what they were in practice. Was “going back to their roots” supposed to mean that years (in some cases centuries) of** organic development within those communities was to be all of a sudden discarded and community life and mission upended? It seems to me the answer is no**.
That never sounded right to me, either, Malphono. Besides the fact that the Madames of the Sacred Heart’s founder, St. Madeleine Sophie Barat started this order **to educate young women **during a time when the education of women was just not a priority. During the period of “aggiornamento”, that’s exactly what they were still doing.

One of the “post-Vatican II” RSCJ. nuns was jailed for desecrating a nuclear site with chicken blood. Mea Culpa, St. Sopie Barat. Mea Culpa St. Philipine Duschene
 
It is important to see that these changes that came after Vatican II were a response to deviations that took place long before Vatican II and needed to be corrected. A simple statement from one of our Ministers General is helpful in understanding how many religious communities addressed the situation that they had created for themselves prior to Vatican II. “We can no longer call ourselves Franciscan if all we do is produce parish priests. The mass production of parish priests is the proper role and duty of clerical institutes and diocesan seminaries. The proper role of the Franciscan is to live as brothers among the poor and the sinful, be it in a parish or under a bridge. We have deviated and must return to the vision of our Holy Father Francis.”
Sounds interesting
 
The problem that you may be missing here, through no fault of your own, because you may not be aware of it, is that many founders explicitly mapped out how their communities were to develop and those maps were sealed with Papal Bulls that were never retracted. Therefore, the religious were found, under obedience, to follow those maps. Any development outside of those maps may have been organic, but was out of compliance.
Yes, I was, and am, well aware of all of that. Far more than you know. In any case, I realize now that I should not have entered this discussion. Please disregard my comments.
 
Would it be a misapplication of Vatican II to take what it said dogmatically when it was not intended to be? NOt that it’s invalid or anything, it just did not issue any dogmas.

A thing can be misapplied by excess or defect, does this seem like excess, to take a pastoral council as dogmatic?
 
Would it be a misapplication of Vatican II to take what it said dogmatically when it was not intended to be? NOt that it’s invalid or anything, it just did not issue any dogmas.

A thing can be misapplied by excess or defect, does this seem like excess, to take a pastoral council as dogmatic?
Good question. Do you mean like accepting ecumenism and collegiality, for example, as dogma?
 
Something along those lines…more like, why should we refer to Vatican II at all for the content of faith, when it was plainly not assembled to teach the faith, but to discuss how to re-interpret it to the modern mass of people, as stated by Blessed Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI.

“The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. …] The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.” (Opening Address, October 11, 1962; Walter M. Abbott, SJ, The Documents of Vatican II, p. 715)

Paul VI also stated at Vatican II when he concluded it, as follows:

“Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council. …] But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man’s conscience and activity, descending, so to speak, into a dialogue with him, but ever preserving its own authority and force; it has spoken with the accommodating friendly voice of pastoral charity; its desire has been to be
heard and understood by everyone; it has not merely concentrated on intellectual understanding but has also sought to express itself in simple, up-to-date, conversational style, derived from actual experience and a cordial approach which make it more vital, attractive and persuasive; it has spoken to modern man as he is.” (Address during the last general meeting of the Second Vatican Council, December 7, 1965; AAS 5http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6tolast.htm)

Paul VI also stated a year later:

" There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification , the council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council , it avoided proclaiming in any extraordinary manner and dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility."
 
Something along those lines…more like, why should we refer to Vatican II at all for the content of faith, when it was plainly not assembled to teach the faith, but to discuss how to re-interpret it to the modern mass of people, as stated by Blessed Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI.

“The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. …] The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.” (Opening Address, October 11, 1962; Walter M. Abbott, SJ, The Documents of Vatican II, p. 715)

Paul VI also stated at Vatican II when he concluded it, as follows:

“Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council. …] But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man’s conscience and activity, descending, so to speak, into a dialogue with him, but ever preserving its own authority and force; it has spoken with the accommodating friendly voice of pastoral charity; its desire has been to be
heard and understood by everyone; it has not merely concentrated on intellectual understanding but has also sought to express itself in simple, up-to-date, conversational style, derived from actual experience and a cordial approach which make it more vital, attractive and persuasive; it has spoken to modern man as he is.” (Address during the last general meeting of the Second Vatican Council, December 7, 1965; AAS 5http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6tolast.htm)

Paul VI also stated a year later:

" There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification , the council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council , it avoided proclaiming in any extraordinary manner and dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility."
That is all well and good, but there are also very clear statements in Vatican II that could be considered more dogmatic than pastoral. At any rate, you cannot just simply ignore the council, while accepting earlier ones. Likewise you cannot reject earlier councils while accepting Vatican II. All of th councils are to be lent the same weight.
 
Paul VI also stated at Vatican II when he concluded it, as follows:
The question I would ask then, who was his prime audience here? The bishops of the Catholic Church, the periti, the observers? Don’t forget there were those present who didn’t believe in the infallibility of the Pope per Vatican I.
 
PLease don’t think I do not adhere to Vatican II: I think it has its place. I just don’t refer to it for meat and potatoes dogmatic theology. ALthough I do not disregard it. Is this a mistake?
 
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