misinterpretations and misapplications of Vatican II

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Government-funded schools are not private. And unless you live in a Catholic country they are CINO. They must abide by whatever the government tells them, be it quotas, their curriculum, their philosophy, etc. Whether they’re packed or not is irrelevant.
I don’t get your point and whatever it is is irrelevant to my post. No, the Catholic School System here is entirely different from that of the U.S. and that is my point and to pretend that stats from the U.S. are the norm everywhere else is misleading.
The Catholic system here is called the Roman Catholic Separate School System and it means just that. It is not part of the public system whatsoever. Each city or county has it’s own school board. The Catholic schools do not belong to any parish.
The tax money used to fund these schools comes in most part from Catholic School supporters. We indicate on our property tax forms where we want our education money to go-- public or separate. We do have a huge say in the matter. The government doesn’t fund the Catholic Schools out of the goodness of it’s heart. No one has to send their children to the separate schools or to direct their tax monies that way. If there are enough Separate School supporters to want a Catholic school and pay for it, it will happen.
Yes,most of the curriculum comes from the Ministry of Education but it does not shove any particular philosophy down the throat of the Catholic schools. The Catholic system is allowed to provide children with an education that is reflective of Catholic teachings and practices and each School Board has the final say in how that is accomplished.
Throw up all the stats you want of religion in the U.S. and try to make them fit into your agenda but don’t pretend that they apply to the universal Church.
 
PLease don’t think I do not adhere to Vatican II: I think it has its place. I just don’t refer to it for meat and potatoes dogmatic theology. ALthough I do not disregard it. Is this a mistake?
You are correct in that, but I believe that there are statements in the documents (though not in the form of Canons) that are just as dogmatic.
 
Some have brought up the decline in vocations to religious life and the secular priesthood as a sign of Vatican II’s weakness. When it comes to the renewal of religious life I always advise to check it out with those of us who have been here through it all. It’s not as black and white as some people make it out to be. There were a number of forces at work and some were pulling in opposite directions. Let’s see if I can outline them to fit here.

ONE: Many religious institutes and secular orders had deviated from the vision and mission of their founders. Some of the deviation bore good fruit. That was not always a problem. For example, Franciscans ordained thousands of men. Christian Brothers ran hundreds of schools among the middle class. The Daughters of Charity adopted a habit and looked more like women religious, than women religious did (they were not founded as women religious). The Jesuits opened great universities, etc.

But, these deviations redefined communities. They found themselves out of compliance with the original mission dictated by the founder and the original statutes. The Church allowed them to deviate, because there was a need. Everyone believed that this would be a short-term situation. Unfortunately, the exceptions became the norm.

TWO: When Perfectae Caritatis, Paul VI, John Paul II and Vita Consacrata commanded religious communities to return to their roots, many religious felt betrayed. The community they joined and the community that the Church wanted were not the same. I offered the examples from my Franciscan family. Many of our ordained friars were offended at the idea of being subject to the authority of a non-clerical friar. Others were upset at being told that the parish schedule had to coordinate with the conventual schedule. They were used to setting the parish schedule and organizing their lives around that. Sisters were blown away to be told that they did not belong in middle class schools, because they had been founded for the education of the poor. Others were told that they were out of compliance because their work had taken priority over their life of contemplation. In some communities, the life of prayer had been reduced to daily mass and two hours of the Divine Office. The Divine Office was prayed individually, because everyone was busy doing something. Some superiors were in shock when they were told that they were abusing their power. Their brothers or sisters were not their subjects; on the contrary, the superior was to be the servant not the micro-manager.

THREE: There were people who took advantage of the shockwave to introduce their own agenda. Many of them had strong political and social ideas. Some of them were good ideas. However, the way that they wanted them played out was problematic. It called for religious to become social activists or social workers, such as the example the Cradle Catholic gave of the sister pouring blood or doing some other silly thing. Let’s face it, the first religious, to the best of my knowledge, who publicly condemned war and questioned the just war theory was Francis of Assisi. The Secular Franciscan order was not allowed to bear arms. Franciscans could not pledge allegience to any nation, except the Holy See. To this day, allegience to the Holy See supercedes national allegience. He did not want his brothers and sisters to become public nuisances either. They were to be the first to die for peace, not the first to start trouble. These individuals didn’t think like Francis. Francis challenged the immoral actions of the state according to the mind of the bishops and popes.

FOUR: There was also the problem of Americanism, which later caught on in Europe. Americanism is how the large religious orders referred to the mindset of blending our culture with religious life to the exclusion of others. The American religious were the first to do this. All of a sudden, the American members of the international religious communities became, AMERICAN. This was problematic in an international family during international conflicts (i.e. US and USSR).

The Post-War Era triggered a new sense of American pride. The men and women born in this era entered the religious communities prior to Vatican II and were in control from the 1960s to the 1980s. Many founders believed in the importance of culture. Two who come to mind were St. Clare of Assisi and Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Mother knew that Jesus wanted Indian sisters. He told her so. Clare commanded her sisters to adopt the dress of the local culture paying special attention to climate, comfort, work, resources and modesty. However, they were to ensure that whatever they chose to wear was some form of religious habit. It was a balanced approach to culture and asceticism. This balance was thrown off by Americanism. The Europeans caught on very quickly, especially in France. It never really caught on in South America and Africa. Religious life is much more balanced there.

I cannot go on, for lack of space. But as we can see, there were many forces at work simultaneously. To blame it all on Vatican II is not sustainable. Vatican II called for a return to the roots. Whatever development had taken place from the foundation of the community to this day was to be examined in light of the vision and regulations left by the founders. Whatever was out of compliance had to be dismantled or you had to ask for special permission to keep it. Some people did not like the dismantling. Other people dismantled things that did not need to be taken down. Finally, many people found that the original vision was not their vocation. They left or did not enter.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I noticed that the post that started this thread also appeared in the Spirituality Sub-Forum verbatim on the same day. Please do not do this. Post only in one place.

When you publish the same post on more than one thread or more than one sub-forum, it can be construed as agenda posting, which is a violation of CAF rules.

I’m not going to delete the first post, because I would have to close the thread and you seem to have a good exchange taking place. If it happens again, I’ll close one of the threads.

Thank You

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
Here lies the problem. Who decides that there have been misinterpretations and misapplications of Vatican II?

Does the Magisterium of the Church decide this? Does the Pope, with the counsel of the other Bishops decide this matter?

Or does a bunch of laymen, and clergy that have no say in the matter, who have no authority at all, decide that the church had misinterpreted Vatican II, has misapplied the teachings and doctrines of Vatican II, and that therefore they no longer have to abide by those applications, or are forced to work to change what they perceive to be wrongs?

In my opinion, those who oppose the Magisterium of the Church, and who oppose the Pope (all of the Popes from John XXIII through Benedict XVI to a greater or lessor degree) are no better than Martin Luther. They are leading a revolt against the Church, and should be excommunicated form the church.
 
Here lies the problem. Who decides that there have been misinterpretations and misapplications of Vatican II?

Does the Magisterium of the Church decide this? Does the Pope, with the counsel of the other Bishops decide this matter?

Or does a bunch of laymen, and clergy that have no say in the matter, who have no authority at all, decide that the church had misinterpreted Vatican II, has misapplied the teachings and doctrines of Vatican II, and that therefore they no longer have to abide by those applications, or are forced to work to change what they perceive to be wrongs?

In my opinion, those who oppose the Magisterium of the Church, and who oppose the Pope (all of the Popes from John XXIII through Benedict XVI to a greater or lessor degree) are no better than Martin Luther. They are leading a revolt against the Church, and should be excommunicated form the church.
You are correct. Hard to argue against that. But if the Pope and prominent Bishops are discussing the matter on record, as they have, then discussing it among ourselves doesn’t mean we oppose the Magisterium.
 
If you can show a continuity of beliefe in the history of the church, then the topic being discussed is worthy of beliefe, whether hell, heavewn, original sin, etc.

If, after millenia of the same type of interpretation with almost no deviation, one group of people says: We’re gonna do things different. It doesn’t mean that anymore, it means this; Then beware. That sheep’s got sharp teeth.

Truth is no-contradictory, if anything appears to contradict what was once revealed and held by the church, it is unworthy of belief. Who decides that? Well…us. THe Faithful have what’s called, the sensus fidei, the sense of understanding that is the church’s inherent conscience, which is infallible.
 
If you can show a continuity of beliefe in the history of the church, then the topic being discussed is worthy of beliefe, whether hell, heavewn, original sin, etc.

If, after millenia of the same type of interpretation with almost no deviation, one group of people says: We’re gonna do things different. It doesn’t mean that anymore, it means this; Then beware. That sheep’s got sharp teeth.

Truth is no-contradictory, if anything appears to contradict what was once revealed and held by the church, it is unworthy of belief. Who decides that? Well…us. THe Faithful have what’s called, the sensus fidei, the sense of understanding that is the church’s inherent conscience, which is infallible.
Vatican II didn’t do anything like this. Yes, there were some yahoos that tried to do things “in the spirit of Vatican II” that did goofy things, but it is not the fault of the Council, but the fault of modernists abusing the Council documents.
 
TWO: When Perfectae Caritatis, Paul VI, John Paul II and Vita Consacrata commanded religious communities to return to their roots, many religious felt betrayed. The community they joined and the community that the Church wanted were not the same. I offered the examples from my Franciscan family. Many of our ordained friars were offended at the idea of being subject to the authority of a non-clerical friar. Others were upset at being told that the parish schedule had to coordinate with the conventual schedule. They were used to setting the parish schedule and organizing their lives around that. Sisters were blown away to be told that they did not belong in middle class schools, because they had been founded for the education of the poor. Others were told that they were out of compliance because their work had taken priority over their life of contemplation. In some communities, the life of prayer had been reduced to daily mass and two hours of the Divine Office. The Divine Office was prayed individually, because everyone was busy doing something. Some superiors were in shock when they were told that they were abusing their power. Their brothers or sisters were not their subjects; on the contrary, the superior was to be the servant not the micro-manager.
Brother JR, do you think any of these initiatives would been taken without the council?
 
THat’s kinda what I mean: Like the CCC isn’t vatican II, but some of the things it says are not the same as what the church has taught. Like religious liberty, freedom of conscience, and the possibility of salvation outside the church. Notice, I believe all these passages CAN be interpreted in the light of previous tradition (as they should) But there are APPARENT contradictions, if not actual. Isn’t that problematic enough?

That’s not saying it’s not part of the authentic magisterium, it’s just that’s enough to make me…not address it.
 
THat’s kinda what I mean: Like the CCC isn’t vatican II, but some of the things it says are not the same as what the church has taught. Like religious liberty, freedom of conscience, and the possibility of salvation outside the church. Notice, I believe all these passages CAN be interpreted in the light of previous tradition (as they should) But there are APPARENT contradictions, if not actual. Isn’t that problematic enough?

That’s not saying it’s not part of the authentic magisterium, it’s just that’s enough to make me…not address it.
Where is there indication of salvation outside the Church? The Catechism and Vatican II both address that all salvation comes through Jesus Christ.
 
That’s not saying it’s not part of the authentic magisterium, it’s just that’s enough to make me…not address it.
But that’s just it. Did Vatican II, with its documents on collegiality, expand or redefine who exactly constituted this (new) magisterium? Do the documents call for a decentralized church, or has this been misinterpreted as well?
 
The council, in the Pope’s own words issued no dogmas. THerefore, anything that came forth from the council cannot be dogmatic.
 
The council, in the Pope’s own words issued no dogmas. THerefore, anything that came forth from the council cannot be dogmatic.
But there were Dogmatic Constitutions, so they must be considered Dogmatic. Dei Verbum and Lumen Gentium are Dogmatic Constitutions.
 
Why are they dogmatic? That title is an editorial. Are they issued as dogmatic in some way? Are they proclaimed dogmatically in some way?
 
From DV 1:
Therefore, following in the footsteps of the Council of Trent and of the First Vatican Council, this present council wishes to set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation and how it is handed on, so that by hearing the message of salvation the whole world may believe, by believing it may hope, and by hoping it may love.
 
Brother JR, do you think any of these initiatives would been taken without the council?
Yes they would have, because they were already being discussed in the 1950s. Several General Chapters of Franciscan men, during the 1950s had already posed the question of declericalization of the order. There was also a movement among the Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites (O’Carm), and Benedictines to sort out and filter out what was not proper to their charism. For example, the Franciscans were sorting through and questioning how they had ended up living in monasteries, when in fact, they’re not monks. They do not make a vow of stability and they recognize only one man as Father, that is Francis. The Rule forbids having anyone as Prior and Abbot, but you had these men in a monastery, who were not allowed to go anywhere near a Priory or Monastery by their founder.

The Dominicans had already put on the table their concern that they had deviated from the combination of contemplation and study. They had become parish priests, instead of contemplative preachers. The Carmelites had raised the question for themselves about their lack of solitude and silence and too much activity. They were founded to be hermits who served their neighbors while preserving their solitude and contemplation, not circumventing it.

Enclosed communities had raised concerns about their way of life. The Benedictines had shifted from being the keepers of culture and faith to doing all kinds of other ministries: parishes, schools, universities, chaplains, etc.

All of these communities were looking to the Holy See for help. They already knew that they were going to lose many men and women and that they were going to be less attractive. But they were willing to have less numbers, but get closer to the founders. There were other religious who were leaving their communities to start new ones that were more Evangelical.

In 1946, Sister Teresa of the Institute of Mary, left her congregation to found an Indian Society of Missionaries of Charity who would live like the people, dress like them and pray like them, while preserving their Catholic faith.

In 1957, Pope Pius XII issued an encylical asking the bishops of the world to promote vocations to the Secular Franciscan Order. There was a renewed interest in secular orders. Both Pius XII and John XXIII were professed members of the SFO and both had gone through its five-year formation program after having gone through eight-years of seminary training to be priests. Already, there was a move to revive the old forms of the orders, secular and regular.

By 1963 the Daughters of Charity had changed their habit from cornette to a short veil. They has banished the concept of convent life and returned to the Sister’s House, as given to them by Louise de Marillac and Elizabeth Ann Seton. They had eliminated the novitiate and gone back to the seminary that Louise and Elizabeth had established. The idea of a seminary formation instead of a novitiate, is because a novitiate is proper for an order, secular or regular and to religious congregations. It is not proper for a public association of apostolic life, which never makes perpetual vows. This concept had been lost somewhere. You had the Daughters of Charity, who never make perpetual vows, so that they are free to leave on March 24 of each year, but they were being trained as if they were becoming nuns. Before Vatican II they had decided to return to the mind of St. Vincent de Paul, Louise de Marillac and Elizabeth Ann Seton.

Prior to Vatican II there were many little things happening in isolation. There was also resistance, as I said above. It was better for the Council and the popes to intervene. It decreased the internal conflicts. Some stayed and worked to recover the origins. Many left, because they felt that the original inspiration of the founder was not relevant to the 20th century. Others stayed and pushed to preserve what they had, refusing to go back to the founders, arguing that the founders would have done things differently if they lived in the 20th century. The problem with this argument is that it is speculative. We can only know what the founders wrote, how they lived and know their virtues. We should not try to imagine them outside of their context. As I always tell the novices, “You are following St. Francis. He’s not following you. Stop trying to fit him into your context…”

This is what had happened with many communities. We had turned the tables and the founders had become the followers and their descendants called the shots. Gradually, people like Maximilian Kolbe, Teresa of Calcutta, Joseph Roncalli, and others had begun to realize that what we needed was two paradigms, the newer one that had been adopted after the 1600s and the original one from before the Protestant Reformation.

You have to remember, the new paradigm of religious life was a reaction to the Protestant reformation. It was almost a defensive posture. It was not a deliberate defiance of the founders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Why are they dogmatic? That title is an editorial. Are they issued as dogmatic in some way? Are they proclaimed dogmatically in some way?
When the Council titled a document the Dogmatic Constitution [insert name]. The document is dogmatic, because it is about a dogma. For example, the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church. The dogma is what the Church says about herself. This comes down from the first Christian community. What the document does is discuss the dogma. It explains the dogma. It does so in several ways.

It tries to explain how the traditional understanding of the Church continues to be true to this day.

It tried to explain how this understanding of the Church is to be applied today. You’re leaving the dogma of the Church in place as it has always been. You’re pointing out how we live as a Church in this day and age.

It tried to fill in the gaps. Throughout history, there have been several dogmatic statements about the nature of the Church. Many of them have been embedded in other statements.

The dogma is preserved, while anything that was commentary, warnings or laws that were necessary back in the day, were separated from the dogma and placed in another document.

We can argue whether the doments were organized in the best way possible. That argument is a moot issue now. They are public and we just have to deal with them as they are organized. We need good commentaries on them. This is lacking. I’ve seen one or two, but they comment on parts, not on all the documents. The best commentary is the CCC, because it pulls everything together from Vatican II backward to the OT.

Many people prefer the “summary catechisms” such as the Baltimore Catechism, because it gives you a summary statement. I do like the newest edition of the Baltimore Catechism. It gives you the question and answer, then offers you the reference in Vatican II, CCC and Scripture where you can find more on the subject.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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