misinterpretations and misapplications of Vatican II

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Bruce,

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate and enjoy your posts. A refreshing bit of sunshine in a dark February, for sure! It warms the soul to read such positive sentiments. It occurred to me that the Spirit has been unusually active on these fora today, for I have been blessed to discover quite a few really good posts! My cup overfloweth!
:heaven:
Thanks for the kind words…they do lift the Spirit during this, a rather harsh winter season

I try very hard to be open to our Church’s teachings. There are some with which I have significant disagreement…as most Catholic’s do. However, I have been blessed to be associated with some fantasically patient and knowlegeable folks within our Parish that keep helping me walk down my own “pathway to holiness”. What I have learned during that journey is to study the “good, the bad, and the ugly” of or Catholic Christian heritage and always, always remember the core teachings of Jesus “trump” all the rest. If we lose site of elements of personal salvation, and the resultant required evangelization in the world of the Word and His Works, all the arguments about the minutiae of our Church’s trappings, rubrics and the rest are wasted.

Sometimes it is difficult to stay engaged in these forums when so many posts are made from and “absolutist” point of view. They tend to get somewhat mean spirited, disdainful even. It is truly uplifting to be involved in a meaningful open minded dialog

God Bless…I’m on my way to Church now where the other five men in my Guitar group will gather in the Church basement for another hour of practice before the 10:30 am Mass.
On the schedule today is a prelude of “Jesu, Man’s Desire” on accoustical Guitar. Today’s Psalm response in 4 part men’s haromony is quite moving as well. And “The Table Song” at Prepartion of the Altar is a wonderful, mid-range tune easily sung by the congregation.

Bruce
 
There has only been one truth. I don’t think I’ve taken anything out of context. Your post was about getting in touch with today reaching out to the 21st century getting in touch with peoples different understandings… well… No. There is only one truth. Vatican II it would appear was about reaffirming the Truth.
Absolutely. There is only one truth: God.

But here is the rub. We are living in a relative, limited, imperfect world.We cannot comprehend God, and on the same way we cannot comprehend the TRUTH as it is. We are able to get only our little slide of it.

This is why we need the hierarchy, and this is why anything criticizing the hierarchy in the name of the truth is the temptation of the Enemy who suggest that we are like God, know good and evil.
 
The reasont that I gave that example is because I was trying to show how successful it can be when it’s done correctly, meaning that when we go back into the tradition of the Church and bring it forward, correctly applying it and stating it in language that modern man understands, it bears good fruit. It makes no difference whether we go back and bring forward the traditions of a religious community or other traditions of the Catholic faith. The key is to reach back into tradition, bring it forward, apply it correctly and explain it in language that today’s man understands.
This may prove to be frustrating. The modern man who wants to understand will want to learn the truth in the language it was formulated. The world doesn’t change the mathematical symbols (≈, ∆, ∞, ∫, ∂, x+∂x, y+∂y, ±, ÷, ∑, etc.) so that kindergarteners can solve nuclear physics problems. That takes time but the tools and that language and the principles behind them need to be taught first. Modern math has proved to be an utter failure in trying to shortcut this process. And calculators and computers haven’t helped except maybe to decrease understanding of arithmetic and ability to solve real tough problems. Computers don’t think but can sure compound and quicken the spread of error.

I’m no theologian, but isn’t “consubstantialem Patri” a theological truth? What happened when we tried to “dumb that down” with “one in being with the Father”? Everything thought they understood that but in the end we found out that was a failure as well so we had to go back to the original “consubstantialem” or at least its cognate. Sure many will object saying that they don’t understand “consubstantial” but who’s fault is it that they don’t want to learn the real truth, they just want something or anything that sounds good to them?
 
The key is to reach back into tradition, bring it forward, apply it correctly and explain it in language that today’s man understands.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
This is where the mistakes are made and are probably best left to people like JPII and Mother Theresa.

Safest way is keep Tradition the way it is.
 
I’m no theologian, but isn’t “consubstantialem Patri” a theological truth? What happened when we tried to “dumb that down” with “one in being with the Father”?
The ‘consubstantialem Patri’ is not truth. It is a sentence, which points to the truth what we are not able to comprehend. The 'one in ‘being with the Father’ also a sentence which points to the same truth. It does not make it more or less comprehensible, we are not able to comprehend the Trinity.

The problem with the ‘one in being with the Father’ is not that it is false, neither that it is dumber than the consubstantialem; either the substantia and the being are abstract concepts what we cannot completely understand. The problem is that the new version does not conforms the rules prescribed for the translation by the God given authority, the Church.

We have to empty ourselves, we have to humiliate ourselves, we have to take the cross of the obedience and accept the authority. To claim that we know good and eveil, we know the truth and others dumb it down is apart from the required humility on the same way as the changing of the rules by our authority.
 
This is where the mistakes are made and are probably best left to people like JPII and Mother Theresa.
Or to pastors who can explain things like “consubstantialem” to their parishioners better than some translating ICEL committee can.
 
This is where the mistakes are made and are probably best left to people like JPII and Mother Theresa.

Safest way is keep Tradition the way it is.
Well, there are some of us who can do this correctly and who have done this correctly, probably more than people know.
This may prove to be frustrating. I’m no theologian, but isn’t “consubstantialem Patri” a theological truth? What happened when we tried to “dumb that down” with “one in being with the Father”?
It’s not a matter of dumbing down, it’s a matter of using language that conveys the concept without changing it. If you go back to my example of the Franciscan renewal, you’ll see what I mean. Perfectae Caritatis said “go back to the origina charism and the vision of the founders”. That’s what we did. We studied the original charism over and over and read everything that was available in our archives on the vision that Christ had revealed to Francis.

Then we began to rewrite our constitutions so that it conveyed the charism and the revelation in a way that today’s friar can understand and apply it and at the same time, we buitl in safeguard to make sure that the mistakes that were made between 1850 and 1960 are not repeated. Without realizing it we have made mistakes that cost a great deal of pain to the friars and steared the community away from its roots.

We had clericalized the order. In the original charism, there were priests who joined the order. They had no special place, special privileges, or even an identifiable title or habit. There was Brother Elias, Brother Anthony, Brother Bonaventure, Father Francis, Brother Juniper, Brother Giles and so forth. Elias, Anthony and Bonaventure were priests. The others were not. The vision of Francis was not a priestly community, as are the Dominicans, but a brotherhood of equals committed to living the Gospel in obedience and wihtout property as equals.

We had institutionalized the order. We took on schools, parishes, hospitals, colleges and other institutions. The early friars worked where ever there was work, each according to his talent. They did not own or operate any of the above. Many were scholars who taught at the great universities, some were priests who assisted in mission parishes and parishes among the poor, others cared for the sick, the hungry, the orphan, the homeless, and many were laborers who farmed and did other work with their hands.; That’s how you get the Franciscans of the Renewal, who walk the streets wherever they are, instead of running parishes. The Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word serve as spiritual directors, communicators and spend a large part of their day in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, The Franciscans of the Primitive Observance live in neighborhoods, but do not engage in any ministry. They evangelize by their presence as did many of the early brothers. The larger branches no longer require that only the ordained friars be superiors, theologians, spiritual directors, retreat masters or parish adminstrators. But any friar who has the gift and is elected by the brothers serves in any of these capcities. It’s going back to Francis’ original vision, you take your gifts and you give them away along with all of your material posessions.

We had shifted from not owinging property to “spiritual poverty”. The friars could own large buildings as long as no individual claimed ownership, then they were poor. This was not the vision. The vision was that the friars lived in very sall communities of 3 or 5, in very simple dwellings among the poorest people. The did not buy buildings. They either rented, houses were lent to them, gifted to them or they built the from their labors. But they left them when the bishops asked them to surrender the property to the diocese. Now, we are moving in that direction again. Friars do not remain in communities where the people are middle class or higher. They move toward the poor communities and toward the immigrants. The friars serve the Gospel of Life ministry, be it among rich or poor, by working in pro-life projects, because the unborn, sick and elderly are the poorest of the poor. They have nothing and no one to defend them.

This is what is meant by going back into tradition, bringing it forward and restating what needs to be restated in a way that it preserves the original and is comprehensible to the modern man.

What had happened, among us, was that the friars accommodated to the needs of the Church as they went along. Often, thoese accommodations were in conflict with the original charism. The friars were a blend beween the monk and the canons regular. They lived the monastic life outside of the enclosure. Like the monks, they were not involved in the local work of the diocese. However, like the Canons of the time, they helped where ever they could without a commitment to stay or to take over. It was understood that they were there as long as the fraternity felt it was necessary. Usually, when another community came along, whose vocation it was to run these ministries, the friars surrendered them. By going with the flow, we tipped the balance so far that we had too many priests and we began to assign them to parishes. There was no place for the friar who was not a ordained. Francis would not have had a place in his own community. Gradually, many friars became diocesan priests, who ran parishes, while wearing a habit. But there was little of the original charism of brotherhood, poverty, prayer, and equality left.

To recover this has taken a long time, a lot of work and a lot of pain. Just as this is being done very well and very meticulously, other things also have to be recovered, explained and applied in a way that fits modern man. That’s what Pope Benedict keeps saying that the Council wanted.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Reading this thread makes me certain more and more that traditionalism is so empty, yet it clutch so tight the claw of religion on people until they can’t think straight anymore.
 
Well, there are some of us who can do this correctly and who have done this correctly, probably more than people know.

It’s not a matter of dumbing down, it’s a matter of using language that conveys the concept without changing it. If you go back to my example of the Franciscan renewal, you’ll see what I mean. Perfectae Caritatis said “go back to the origina charism and the vision of the founders”. That’s what we did. We studied the original charism over and over and read everything that was available in our archives on the vision that Christ had revealed to Francis.

Then we began to rewrite our constitutions so that it conveyed the charism and the revelation in a way that today’s friar can understand and apply it and at the same time, we buitl in safeguard to make sure that the mistakes that were made between 1850 and 1960 are not repeated. Without realizing it we have made mistakes that cost a great deal of pain to the friars and steared the community away from its roots.

We had clericalized the order. In the original charism, there were priests who joined the order. They had no special place, special privileges, or even an identifiable title or habit. There was Brother Elias, Brother Anthony, Brother Bonaventure, Father Francis, Brother Juniper, Brother Giles and so forth. Elias, Anthony and Bonaventure were priests. The others were not. The vision of Francis was not a priestly community, as are the Dominicans, but a brotherhood of equals committed to living the Gospel in obedience and wihtout property as equals.

We had institutionalized the order. We took on schools, parishes, hospitals, colleges and other institutions. The early friars worked where ever there was work, each according to his talent. They did not own or operate any of the above. Many were scholars who taught at the great universities, some were priests who assisted in mission parishes and parishes among the poor, others cared for the sick, the hungry, the orphan, the homeless, and many were laborers who farmed and did other work with their hands.; That’s how you get the Franciscans of the Renewal, who walk the streets wherever they are, instead of running parishes. The Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word serve as spiritual directors, communicators and spend a large part of their day in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, The Franciscans of the Primitive Observance live in neighborhoods, but do not engage in any ministry. They evangelize by their presence as did many of the early brothers. The larger branches no longer require that only the ordained friars be superiors, theologians, spiritual directors, retreat masters or parish adminstrators. But any friar who has the gift and is elected by the brothers serves in any of these capcities. It’s going back to Francis’ original vision, you take your gifts and you give them away along with all of your material posessions.

We had shifted from not owinging property to “spiritual poverty”. The friars could own large buildings as long as no individual claimed ownership, then they were poor. This was not the vision. The vision was that the friars lived in very sall communities of 3 or 5, in very simple dwellings among the poorest people. The did not buy buildings. They either rented, houses were lent to them, gifted to them or they built the from their labors. But they left them when the bishops asked them to surrender the property to the diocese. Now, we are moving in that direction again. Friars do not remain in communities where the people are middle class or higher. They move toward the poor communities and toward the immigrants. The friars serve the Gospel of Life ministry, be it among rich or poor, by working in pro-life projects, because the unborn, sick and elderly are the poorest of the poor. They have nothing and no one to defend them.

This is what is meant by going back into tradition, bringing it forward and restating what needs to be restated in a way that it preserves the original and is comprehensible to the modern man.

What had happened, among us, was that the friars accommodated to the needs of the Church as they went along. Often, thoese accommodations were in conflict with the original charism. The friars were a blend beween the monk and the canons regular. They lived the monastic life outside of the enclosure. Like the monks, they were not involved in the local work of the diocese. However, like the Canons of the time, they helped where ever they could without a commitment to stay or to take over. It was understood that they were there as long as the fraternity felt it was necessary. Usually, when another community came along, whose vocation it was to run these ministries, the friars surrendered them. By going with the flow, we tipped the balance so far that we had too many priests and we began to assign them to parishes. There was no place for the friar who was not a ordained. Francis would not have had a place in his own community. Gradually, many friars became diocesan priests, who ran parishes, while wearing a habit. But there was little of the original charism of brotherhood, poverty, prayer, and equality left.

To recover this has taken a long time, a lot of work and a lot of pain. Just as this is being done very well and very meticulously, other things also have to be recovered, explained and applied in a way that fits modern man. That’s what Pope Benedict keeps saying that the Council wanted.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I can just see people doing this kind of thing and not getting it right. Then we’ll have the 1960s all over again. We know too well how people can get it wrong and claim to be the authority. With all due respect to you Br JR.
 
I can just see people doing this kind of thing and not getting it right. Then we’ll have the 1960s all over again. We know too well how people can get it wrong and claim to be the authority. With all due respect to you Br JR.
Regardless, the Church calls us to go back in time and bring forward tradtion in a new language and it may require a lot of work. You’re right. We’re human beings. But we cannot keep repeating what has been said, when half of the world does not understand what we’re saying. We have to rephrase it.

We cannot continue to pepetuate the mistakes that we made in the last 150 years either. We made some duzzies, especially to religious life. If you’re not a religious, it may look at if religious life was fine the way it was before Vatican II. The fact was that so many communities had deviated from their oginal charism and their vision of their founders that these founders would never recognize them again.

As a Franciscan, I can tell you that Francis of Assisi would not have been admitted to his own order Prior to Vatican II. That’s how much we had become like secular clergy. The mendicant friar whose primary love was Christ and whose primary ministry was to serve and love his brothers had disappears and been replaced by thousands of parish priests. We were not the only religious family to suffer such deviation.

Benedictines became parish priests. Benedict would roll over in his grave if he saw that. Carmelites became parish priests and left their hermitages.

Dominicans became parish priests and were short on intinerant preachers and university scholars.

But everyone thought this was the way things were supposed to be. When Vatican II commanded that we reach back into tradition, everyone realized that we have started to give a little and a little more and another llittle bit and hundreds of years later, we had very different communities with different goals from those of the founders.

This happend in many parts of Catholic life, not just religious life. That’s why it’s important to reach back into tradition and to explain it to contemporary man so that he understands it well enough to avoid the mistakes that were made over the years.

In every renewal you’re going to have to tweek something here and there. But that’s better than no renewal. No renewal means no recovery of the past. You just keep going as things are, believing that this is the way that they were mean to be.

I don’t want to go back to a religious community that was estranged from our founder. I rather go through the pains of relearning the entire Franciscan tradition again. The same applies to every other aspect of Catholic life. I’d rather learn it all again, than just go from one day to the next believing that everything is OK and not realizing what we’re missing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Tradition. What is Tradition? You can find justification for any novelty in our history. That doesn’t mean it’s suitable to be introduced into Roman Catholcism in 1960-2011. Especially when the documents supporting these changes are themselves hotly debated.

People want miracles, holiness, beauty and The Word. I read that the Low Mass is a safeguard against creative priests. I think that’s right. It should be supported.
 
Tradition. What is Tradition? You can find justification for any novelty in our history.
Exactly what are you responding to? Your post lacks context. The previous use of “tradition” was St. Francis. I know you aren’t calling Franciscan spirituality a novelty. Do you mind clarifying?
 
I don’t want to go back to a religious community that was estranged from our founder. I rather go through the pains of relearning the entire Franciscan tradition again. The same applies to every other aspect of Catholic life. I’d rather learn it all again, than just go from one day to the next believing that everything is OK and not realizing what we’re missing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I can sympathize with this statement, and I believe the same attitude is what creates such zeal within a large portion of the traditional Catholic community. To see so many Catholics (at least the ones left) merely sailing along thinking everything is OK, or not understanding what has been lost due to poor catechesis will drive one to the edge. That is why I believe the Holy Father is calling for the re-evangilization. We need to re-learn what has been left behind. One cannot realize what is missing if one does not know what to look for.

Pax Christi
 
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