Misogynistic Texts in the Bible?

[techgirl97]

Hello, I am a university freshman at a Franciscan college, and I have a friend who is not Christian. We were talking today, and she was pointing out all these quotes in the Bible I was shocked to read, and find truly preached in the Scriptures. I’ve been raised Catholic my whole life, and even went to Catholic grade school from kindergarten to eighth grade, and now am at a Catholic college. I was never taught by any theology teachers anything about women inferiority/subordination/obedience, and this has come to really bother me.

After all, I am a young woman in college for a reason. I’m here to get educated and pursue my career and I find women just as capable of doing so. I always thought it was in line with Church teaching to believe that women could hold a career equally as prestigious as men, equally raise children and be a happy family raised under Catholicism, and have an egalitarian marriage with a Catholic man later in my life when the time came. I found some inspiring words of Pope Francis that I thought backed my claims, and I never really questioned it. Now, however, this is really irking me as my independence, and belief that women are different than men, but still as equally suited for professional and leadership careers and roles is at odds.

Even in theology class this semester I’ve had issues that have rubbed me the wrong way. Such as polygamy, sexual slavery, ownership of women as possessions of fathers and husbands-- seemingly condoned, women’s lack of importance and how women seem only to matter in regards to building up and being a man’s “helper” and not her own person full of uniqueness and gifts and talents of her own… her only purpose to bear children. While, the gift of life is beautiful, it is problematic to me to believe that a woman’s sole purpose is to bear children and raise them. I feel as though a father and mother’s role are of equal value and should both go into equally raising the child.

These quotes are of issue to me, and I was wondering if someone could give me an argument against my friend because in their mere text they do seem to be against modern women, even Christian women.

Ephesians 5:22-33New International Version (NIV)

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, **so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. **

33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

This really concerns me. Is it really necessary for me to submit to my husband if I get married? Is that what God wants? I see a lot of issue with a marriage without co-leadership. I really do not want to obey my husband like I obeyed my parents as a child. I’m an adult capable of my own decisions and choices, and in a marriage it should be about mutual discussion and equal say. Also, there’s nothing wrong with respect. I would hope I respect a man I marry, but I would expect nothing less from him. I don’t want to boss my husband around, and would be infuriated if he tried to tell me what to do. Even in a “loving way”. I want to be an equal leader in my relationship. Is this against Catholic teaching? Is the Catholic marriage about women submitting to their husbands because it’s what Jesus wants? The head of the household? Can’t spouses have equal authority in their homes?

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
— 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Women can’t speak in church? I know that we can’t be clergymen, but this seems extreme. I have spoken in church before? I don’t understand. I know of women theology professors in esteemed Catholic universities.

“For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.”
— 1 Corinthians 11:7
“For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man: for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man:”
— 1 Corinthians 11:8-9 Bible-icon.png

A woman is the glory of a man? In other words, a woman only exists for the benefit of men? Where do I even begin… both these quotes are horrible, and seemingly contradictory within other Catholic teaching that we all were created equal in the eyes of God-- not women created to appease men.

Also, isn’t there a quote in Timothy where it is stated women can’t teach men anything? So any woman leader or boss or CEO or head of state is breaking God’s law? This is upsetting me and I do not know how to respond to my friend. I want to defend my faith, and speak about women leaders like Ruth or Joan of Arc and the importance of women saints, and Mary, but I don’t know how. She counters with their importance only in childbearing and in relation to men. I really hope these things aren’t the Catholic interpretation, and that you guys can help me out with explaining to my friend.

Thank you!

 

[bwhite06517]

Hello, I am a university freshman at a Franciscan college, and I have a friend who is not Christian. We were talking today, and she was pointing out all these quotes in the Bible I was shocked to read, and find truly preached in the Scriptures. I’ve been raised Catholic my whole life, and even went to Catholic grade school from kindergarten to eighth grade, and now am at a Catholic college. I was never taught by any theology teachers anything about women inferiority/subordination/obedience, and this has come to really bother me.

After all, I am a young woman in college for a reason. I’m here to get educated and pursue my career and I find women just as capable of doing so. I always thought it was in line with Church teaching to believe that women could hold a career equally as prestigious as men, equally raise children and be a happy family raised under Catholicism, and have an egalitarian marriage with a Catholic man later in my life when the time came. I found some inspiring words of Pope Francis that I thought backed my claims, and I never really questioned it. Now, however, this is really irking me as my independence, and belief that women are different than men, but still as equally suited for professional and leadership careers and roles is at odds.

Even in theology class this semester I’ve had issues that have rubbed me the wrong way. Such as polygamy, sexual slavery, ownership of women as possessions of fathers and husbands-- seemingly condoned, women’s lack of importance and how women seem only to matter in regards to building up and being a man’s “helper” and not her own person full of uniqueness and gifts and talents of her own… her only purpose to bear children. While, the gift of life is beautiful, it is problematic to me to believe that a woman’s sole purpose is to bear children and raise them. I feel as though a father and mother’s role are of equal value and should both go into equally raising the child.

These quotes are of issue to me, and I was wondering if someone could give me an argument against my friend because in their mere text they do seem to be against modern women, even Christian women.

Ephesians 5:22-33New International Version (NIV)

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

This really concerns me. Is it really necessary for me to submit to my husband if I get married? Is that what God wants? I see a lot of issue with a marriage without co-leadership. I really do not want to obey my husband like I obeyed my parents as a child. I’m an adult capable of my own decisions and choices, and in a marriage it should be about mutual discussion and equal say. Also, there’s nothing wrong with respect. I would hope I respect a man I marry, but I would expect nothing less from him. I don’t want to boss my husband around, and would be infuriated if he tried to tell me what to do. Even in a “loving way”. I want to be an equal leader in my relationship. Is this against Catholic teaching? Is the Catholic marriage about women submitting to their husbands because it’s what Jesus wants? The head of the household? Can’t spouses have equal authority in their homes?

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
— 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Women can’t speak in church? I know that we can’t be clergymen, but this seems extreme. I have spoken in church before? I don’t understand. I know of women theology professors in esteemed Catholic universities.

“For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.”
— 1 Corinthians 11:7
“For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man: for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man:”
— 1 Corinthians 11:8-9 Bible-icon.png

A woman is the glory of a man? In other words, a woman only exists for the benefit of men? Where do I even begin… both these quotes are horrible, and seemingly contradictory within other Catholic teaching that we all were created equal in the eyes of God-- not women created to appease men.

Also, isn’t there a quote in Timothy where it is stated women can’t teach men anything? So any woman leader or boss or CEO or head of state is breaking God’s law? This is upsetting me and I do not know how to respond to my friend. I want to defend my faith, and speak about women leaders like Ruth or Joan of Arc and the importance of women saints, and Mary, but I don’t know how. She counters with their importance only in childbearing and in relation to men. I really hope these things aren’t the Catholic interpretation, and that you guys can help me out with explaining to my friend.

Thank you!

I am not an expert, but some suggest these are ‘cultural’ issues - St. Paul was addressing issues common in his days. Even today (as I understand - and I could be wrong) in conservative Jewish congregations, women sit in the balcony and men on the main floor and only men can speak.

 

[mjs2001]

Good questions. Don’t worry–they all have answers. I suggest that you begin with Ephesians. Here is a link to a podcast by Father Riccardo. The page has a link to his dissertation on the subject as well. stanastasia.libsyn.com/webpage/2012/08

God bless you!

 

[ahs]

These quotes are of issue to me, and I was wondering if someone could give me an argument against my friend because in their mere text they do seem to be against modern women, even Christian women.

Ephesians 5:22-33New International Version (NIV)

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Why is that misogynistic in the context of the other parts of that passage? If the husband is to be Christ to his wife, willing to lay down his life for her, why is it misogynistic for the wife to view her husband in that way, and submit herself to the God-appointed spiritual leader of the household?

33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Why is that a problem? Do you think the modern Christian woman should NOT respect her husband, and that the modern Christian man should NOT love his wife?

This really concerns me. Is it really necessary for me to submit to my husband if I get married? Is that what God wants? I see a lot of issue with a marriage without co-leadership. I really do not want to obey my husband like I obeyed my parents as a child.

And there’s the issue. You think that a Marriage is akin to a parental/child relationship in the view of the Scripture writer. It’s not. A man is the head of a household because he bears the responsibility of providing spiritual leadership to his family and should be willing to love his wife in the same manner that Christ loves His Church. How did Christ love His Church? He was willing to sacrifice Himself for her. So must each husband do. Submitting yourself to this kind of husband is not like obeying your parents. It’s allowing your husband to lead you to God along your faith life as he sacrifices himself in order to bring you to Christ. It seems the man has the heavier burden here. Shall we say this is miso-man-istic? No…it’s the way God ordained it. It’s how we learn to love God and obey our Creator, by submitting ourselves to His Will for us, in the way He wants us to do it.

It doen’t mean you can’t disagree with your husband, and it doesn’t mean you have to obey everything he says. In fact, you should NOT obey him if he is NOT loving you as Christ loved the Church…if he were trying to make you do something that would lead you from God.

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
— 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Women can’t speak in church? I know that we can’t be clergymen, but this seems extreme.

It seems extreme because you are reading 1st century writings through your 21st century lens. Same can be said for the remainder.

 

[edwest2]

Ephesians 5:25 NIV

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.”

5:28 “In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.”

5:33 “However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”

1 Peter 3:7 “Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.”

Pope John Paul was appropriately concerned about the effect the outside world was having on families in 1981. Women heard a lot of bad things about men during the Women’s Liberation Movement in the 1970s. While it is certainly true that some women were abused in the past, and in some places more than others. But, building trust, friendships, and learning about the man long before the ceremony is what’s missing today. Young people are not encouraged to date. Sex comes first and then, after that, it seems that whatever happens happens.

This was never the plan. Men would sit down with the young lady’s father and ask his permission to marry his daughter. Since her dad was his age once, he got it. He also knew that he didn’t want his daughter to end up with a lazy bum, drunk, addict, liar or someone who could not control his temper. They also discussed the important things. Where will you live? Do you make enough money? Do you have reliable transportation?
Most men treated women with appropriate respect and most women understood their personal dignity, but a great divide was created by the radical feminists. It was class warfare. Women, the eternal victims of men - any men. Including guys like me, or should I say “male chauvenist pigs”?

No, life was not perfect when I was growing up but husbands and wives “pulled the wagon together.”

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio.html

Ed

 

[SWolf]

Why is that misogynistic in the context of the other parts of that passage? If the husband is to be Christ to his wife, willing to lay down his life for her, why is it misogynistic for the wife to view her husband in that way, and submit herself to the God-appointed spiritual leader of the household?

Why is that a problem? Do you think the modern Christian woman should NOT respect her husband, and that the modern Christian man should NOT love his wife?

And there’s the issue. You think that a Marriage is akin to a parental/child relationship in the view of the Scripture writer. It’s not. A man is the head of a household because he bears the responsibility of providing spiritual leadership to his family and should be willing to love his wife in the same manner that Christ loves His Church. How did Christ love His Church? He was willing to sacrifice Himself for her. So must each husband do. Submitting yourself to this kind of husband is not like obeying your parents. It’s allowing your husband to lead you to God along your faith life as he sacrifices himself in order to bring you to Christ. It seems the man has the heavier burden here. Shall we say this is miso-man-istic? No…it’s the way God ordained it. It’s how we learn to love God and obey our Creator, by submitting ourselves to His Will for us, in the way He wants us to do it.

It doen’t mean you can’t disagree with your husband, and it doesn’t mean you have to obey everything he says. In fact, you should NOT obey him if he is NOT loving you as Christ loved the Church…if he were trying to make you do something that would lead you from God.

It seems extreme because you are reading 1st century writings through your 21st century lens. Same can be said for the remainder.

Well said. None of this is misogynistic. It goes against 21st century sensibilities, but I hardly see that as a bad thing. If one wants to say it was just the times, that pretty much puts everything in question that is in scripture. The truths are eternal, and these verses mean the same thing now as when they were written. How they are implemented is all that changes.

 

[808Catholic]

We were talking today, and she was pointing out all these quotes in the Bible I was shocked to read, and find truly preached in the Scriptures.

Did you find it interesting that your friend who is a self avowed “non-Christian” quoted from the Bible? Have you asked her intent on what prompted her to open and read a Bible? Something sounds a bit strange.

 

[kozlosap]

Techgirl97 - Please remember that “you” will be making the decision about who you will spend the rest of your life with, and I seriously doubt that you would marry a knuckle dragger! I was so lucky that my Mama and Daddy were ahead of their time on this issue. They married in 1943, and worked as a team from that second on. My dad told me many times that Mom was the smartest person he ever met and that this was evident both academically and emotionally. You are right, you do not need a father you already have one. Please do not worry, at age 62 I don’t know any men in lifelong marriages that have made themselves the Lord and Master over their wives - those guys have been long divorced unless they decided that Western Women are too advanced and paid for a maid/hooker/baby machine mail order bride from a third world country. Please enjoy your time at the university, where you will meet and make friends with many different people.

 

[Kurisu35712]

Why is that misogynistic in the context of the other parts of that passage? If the husband is to be Christ to his wife, willing to lay down his life for her, why is it misogynistic for the wife to view her husband in that way, and submit herself to the God-appointed spiritual leader of the household?

Why is that a problem? Do you think the modern Christian woman should NOT respect her husband, and that the modern Christian man should NOT love his wife?

And there’s the issue. You think that a Marriage is akin to a parental/child relationship in the view of the Scripture writer. It’s not. A man is the head of a household because he bears the responsibility of providing spiritual leadership to his family and should be willing to love his wife in the same manner that Christ loves His Church. How did Christ love His Church? He was willing to sacrifice Himself for her. So must each husband do. Submitting yourself to this kind of husband is not like obeying your parents. It’s allowing your husband to lead you to God along your faith life as he sacrifices himself in order to bring you to Christ. It seems the man has the heavier burden here. Shall we say this is miso-man-istic? No…it’s the way God ordained it. It’s how we learn to love God and obey our Creator, by submitting ourselves to His Will for us, in the way He wants us to do it.

It doen’t mean you can’t disagree with your husband, and it doesn’t mean you have to obey everything he says. In fact, you should NOT obey him if he is NOT loving you as Christ loved the Church…if he were trying to make you do something that would lead you from God.

It seems extreme because you are reading 1st century writings through your 21st century lens. Same can be said for the remainder.

This. This is a very good explanation. Marriage is not about suboordination. It’s entirely about mutual self-sacrifice.

I would question the motivations of an atheist quoting the Bible at me. Frankly, I question the motivations of anyone quoting the Bible at me. The Catholic Church complied the Biblical canon, so I’m not particularly sorry if I accept the Church’s continuing 2000 year interpretations over a 20 something year old peer with an agenda.

I cannot believe that St. Joan of Arc, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Theresa of Avila, Mary, and the multitude of Catholic women, and martyrs in particular, devoted their lives to this faith in error. Frankly, I trust their word and their lives over the pretentious arguments of an alleged “feminist” any day.

 

[edwest2]

Techgirl97 - Please remember that “you” will be making the decision about who you will spend the rest of your life with, and I seriously doubt that you would marry a knuckle dragger! I was so lucky that my Mama and Daddy were ahead of their time on this issue. They married in 1943, and worked as a team from that second on. My dad told me many times that Mom was the smartest person he ever met and that this was evident both academically and emotionally. You are right, you do not need a father you already have one. Please do not worry, at age 62 I don’t know any men in lifelong marriages that have made themselves the Lord and Master over their wives - those guys have been long divorced unless they decided that Western Women are too advanced and paid for a maid/hooker/baby machine mail order bride from a third world country. Please enjoy your time at the university, where you will meet and make friends with many different people.

The last two sentences represent the artificial class warfare created by the radical feminists. And too many women listened to them instead of the Church. If you don’t believe that too many women have adopted immoral ideas themselves then you’re not presenting the complete picture. Modern male-female relationships were taught to be dysfunctional and all about power for women only. And too many Universities have their own “culture” that encourages many to abandon the faith

Get it right young women, too many have listened to false teachers and love, real love, has been abandoned for something that should not be.

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

Ed

 

[808Catholic]

Ephesians 5:22-33New International Version (NIV)

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Question: would this verse be any different if we switched “wife” and “husband”? In terms of Church doctrine, it may make less sense when we consider it might read “For the wife is the head of the husband as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is Savior.” The pronouns were not meant to be misogynistic but as accurate in translation as possible.

Christ could have chosen to Incarnate as a woman, couldn’t He? He’s God after all. Yet, He chose to Incarnate as a male. Why?

We go back to Genesis and find God made man first and he is cast out of the garden because he turned against God. Remember the part where Adam and Eve are ashamed so they hide themselves from God (as if!) and God calls out to Adam not Eve. God questions Adam first then He questions Eve. In essence, Adam lies to God and Eve tells God the truth. It’s Adam God holds accountable for the sin though Eve shares in the sin and the consequence!

Now jump forward to the birth of Jesus. The Holy Spirit lays over Mary and conceives Jesus. God “creates” the Savior, God Incarnate, not from man but from woman. Adam was supposed to be perfect man in all ways but his (and Eve’s) sin stains all of us. Jesus is the Prime Example of how to be the perfect man. He lives his life so we can follow Him then gives up His life to save all of mankind. This is why the Church refers to Him as the “new” Adam.

Yet, Christ is the Bridegroom and we (collectively the entire Church) are the bride of Christ. Christ loves us to death and husbands are called to love their wives to death. The Church (bride of Christ) loves the Bridegroom/Jesus and submit to Him. We don’t just obey Him, we trust Him even when we don’t understand. We follow Him even though the path is difficult and may end in death. We try to love Him with the same love He loves us with: unconditional love or agape.

Sadly, men and women don’t quite grasp the relationship that God has designed us for. We are different, men and women, that is, yet we are the same in the eyes of God. The husband’s role is to protect his wife and children as St. Joseph protected Mary and Jesus. (Remember how Joseph had a visit by an angel telling him to not be afraid and take the pregnant Mary as his wife even though they never had marital relations? Remember how an angel told Joseph in a dream to flee Herod in order to save Jesus?) Mary obviously loved and protected her child Jesus and believed in His Divinity as evidenced by the miracle at the wedding of Cana. She is the model for the Church: unconditional love and unshakable faith.

People who choose to focus on this verse and misinterpret the meaning need our prayers. God did not set men above women; each have a role to play in His Will. It’s only when we accept we have God given roles and responsibilities that we do His Will.

 

[808Catholic]

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
— 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

This verse is taken from a letter attributed to St. Paul who traveled extensively evangelizing and spreading the Gospel. From his letters, we know he travelled thousands of miles and many of them on foot! In this letter, St. Paul is addressing the new church in Corinth and it seems they’re having some problems with chaotic Eucharistic celebrations and gatherings so much so that St. Paul admonishes both women AND men.

Historically, these early christian churches are made up of Jews who’ve heard the Gospel and are converting to be “Jesus followers”. In Jewish tradition, the men gather at the synagogue to learn from a teacher. The head of households, usually the husband, father, or even grandfather, takes the lesson home and teaches the entire family including the women and children. So how did women come to be present in the early christian churches where they gathered in private homes (remember the early christians were persecuted by both the Jews and the Romans)? St. Paul does not reveal this in his letters but he addresses this situation and reminds the early church “as also saith the law.” Whose law? The Mosaic and Jewish temple law. These laws are familiar to the converting Jews and still carry weight.

If we focus on this phrase “let them ask their husbands at home” there almost seems to be an admonishment to the husbands who may be coming to church but not teaching at home! Almost as if St. Paul is saying “Husbands, teach your wives so they do not have to shame themselves AND you in the community of the church.” After all, if the wives’ questions were answered by their husbands, they wouldn’t be talking in church, right?

 

[808Catholic]

So any woman leader or boss or CEO or head of state is breaking God’s law? This is upsetting me and I do not know how to respond to my friend. I want to defend my faith, and speak about women leaders like Ruth or Joan of Arc and the importance of women saints, and Mary, but I don’t know how. She counters with their importance only in childbearing and in relation to men. I really hope these things aren’t the Catholic interpretation, and that you guys can help me out with explaining to my friend.

One perspective of the Bible and God’s laws that might help: His laws do not limit us but allow us to be free.

Can a woman be a highly successful executive? Absolutely! Same as a man. The issue becomes when we, men or women, put career/job ahead of God. So we can be loving husbands and wives and faithful to God and still highly successful professionals. Just don’t give up God so you can rise to the top of the corporate ladder. This also extends to your spouse and children; don’t put them second to a business meeting no matter how important you may think that meeting is.

Arguably, the most important human in God’s creation is Mary. Without her, there is no Christ and no salvation. The Bible is full of accounts of women who have done God’s will and been faithful to Him. We have a long history of women saints; some of them never married or bore children. To say the Catholic Church and the Bible is anti-women shows the person really doesn’t know the Church or the Bible.

Pray for them.

 

[CRUSADER_KING]

It seems extreme because you are reading 1st century writings through your 21st century lens. Same can be said for the remainder.

We all need to remember this when reading scripture.

 

[techgirl97]

A lot of you are contorting things I have said… also, I should mention many of you are helpful, as well. Firstly, my friend is not an atheist. She’s a Muslim. The topic came up because in history there was a discussion on the maltreatment of women in the Middle East and the topic pondered if it were due to the Qu’ran’s teachings. I said to her in question that does the Qu’uran say these things against women, and she was quick to bounce back with Bible verses she gathered online that showed that the Bible was equally as misogynistic in her defense of her own religion.

I believe that modern day talks of empowerment for women stem from the fact they were abused for centuries. I don’t think it’s all a thing of trying to have control OVER men, rather control over themselves. I don’t think in a relationship anyone should have control over anyone else. I feel as though in marriage the husband and wife should lead together. In my Catholic house growing up, my parents always made decisions together. They had equal say and equal influence on my Catholic faith. I didn’t know this was in contradiction with Catholic doctrine, but the implication by many of you, who I assume know what you are talking about, is that it does. This saddens me, but I came here for the truth, not to hear what I want to hear.

I was taught that marriage was mutual submission and self-sacrifice through Christ in my Catholic grade school, but these texts and many of you seem to agree that it is a woman’s role to submit and obey her husband as the church does to Christ and in turn the man simply loves the woman. I don’t understand what would be wrong with both parties loving as Christ, and both parties submitting to one another.

1 Peter 3:7 “Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.”

Weaker? This just makes another thing for me to have to explain to my friend. Or rather, I’ll have to come to terms with. To me this is ridiculous to imply women are weaker than men. I’ve met many strong women and men in my life. The only way women are weaker is physically, that’s a biological fact. I’ve met many, many women tough as nails. And, again with the babymaking machine…

I do believe feminism is a bit radical these days as well, but I also do firmly believe that women are just as capable leaders as men, and should be co-leaders in a marriage. It disappoints me that this apparently goes against my religion’s doctrine as I was not aware of this until today. I always thought the Catholic Church was on board… I suppose I’ve been ignorant.

Also, I find it appalling that anyone else had a say in who a woman would/could marry other than the woman and the man getting married. No one else should be able to make that decision. That’s terrible. An adult is capable of deciphering who is right for her and who is not. That’s part of history treating girls as property rather than people. Isn’t that even so in the church, that a marriage isn’t even valid in Catholocism without both parties consenting? That’s absurd that a father used to have say in his daughter’s marriage. It’s she and her fiancé’s marriage and theirs alone! No one else should have any say in the matter…

Also, I do not BELIEVE a marriage should be a parent/child relationship, but these texts do seem to paint them in similar lights. A parent takes care of/leads their child and would lay down their life for their kid, and in turn the child loves by being obidient to their parent and following their will trusting that their parent will make the right decision out of love… this is the identical sort of picture being painted by these Biblical quotes. This is unsettling to me because a parent and child are on different levels, whereas a man and a woman are of equal mental capacity and capability so it’s absurd that a woman should not also be a co-leader out of mutual submission with her husband also submitting to her. This disturbs me as a modern woman, yes.

I’m just surprised and disappointed that egalitarian marriage where both spouses have equal “power” and women as leaders like Christian, Carly Fiorina, and with talents that they implement other than just having babies and caring for them are seemingly condemned by these passages and in teaching with my faith. I took great pride in both my ambition to succeed in my own aspirations and career, my hopes to live as a Catholic with a Catholic marriage, which was also eglitarian where we both loved, respected, lead, parented, made decisions equally… and it’s been shaken.

 

[jilly4ski]

…cut for length]

1 Peter 3:7 “Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.”

Weaker? This just makes another thing for me to have to explain to my friend. Or rather, I’ll have to come to terms with. To me this is ridiculous to imply women are weaker than men. I’ve met many strong women and men in my life. The only way women are weaker is physically, that’s a biological fact. I’ve met many, many women tough as nails. And, again with the babymaking machine…

I do believe feminism is a bit radical these days as well, but I also do firmly believe that women are just as capable leaders as men, and should be co-leaders in a marriage. It disappoints me that this apparently goes against my religion’s doctrine as I was not aware of this until today. I always thought the Catholic Church was on board… I suppose I’ve been ignorant.

Also, I find it appalling that anyone else had a say in who a woman would/could marry other than the woman and the man getting married. No one else should be able to make that decision. That’s terrible. An adult is capable of deciphering who is right for her and who is not. That’s part of history treating girls as property rather than people. Isn’t that even so in the church, that a marriage isn’t even valid in Catholocism without both parties consenting? That’s absurd that a father used to have say in his daughter’s marriage. It’s she and her fiancé’s marriage and theirs alone! No one else should have any say in the matter…

Also, I do not BELIEVE a marriage should be a parent/child relationship, but these texts do seem to paint them in similar lights. A parent takes care of/leads their child and would lay down their life for their kid, and in turn the child loves by being obidient to their parent and following their will trusting that their parent will make the right decision out of love… this is the identical sort of picture being painted by these Biblical quotes. This is unsettling to me because a parent and child are on different levels, whereas a man and a woman are of equal mental capacity and capability so it’s absurd that a woman should not also be a co-leader out of mutual submission with her husband also submitting to her. This disturbs me as a modern woman, yes.

I’m just surprised and disappointed that egalitarian marriage where both spouses have equal “power” and women as leaders like Christian, Carly Fiorina, and with talents that they implement other than just having babies and caring for them are seemingly condemned by these passages and in teaching with my faith. I took great pride in both my ambition to succeed in my own aspirations and career, my hopes to live as a Catholic with a Catholic marriage, which was also eglitarian where we both loved, respected, lead, parented, made decisions equally… and it’s been shaken.

I am confused on why you think bible passages about marriage have anything to do with leading a company or working with men who are not your husband.

And I don’t know about the other posters, but I am indeed physically weaker than my husband, despite being an athlete (he is not) and being in better physical condition than him. If you look back at when 1 Peter would have been written, physical strength, indeed was important to the great majority of work, especially for the lower classes. Farm laborers, fishermen, soldiers, etc required physical strength. You have to take into account the context of the passage and then style the book was written in for proper interpretation of the bible.

Like the passage about women not talking in church, where Paul was addressing the problems the Church of Corinth was having so 1 Peter is a letter directed at the people in dispora or exile and they are exorted to “In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.” 1 Peter 1:6 In harsh lands in a dangerous world where women mean less than nothing to most governments and laws should the men not be exorted to protect their wives? In essence it appears that passage is telling husbands that they can’t treat their wives like their male buddies or a similar message that they need to respect their wives as women and individuals (they might need more protection or help in the new and dangerous place), the passage continues and says the men should consider the women as heirs with them of the gift of life (procreation). Do you know how rare it was for women to inherit anything back then? For the author of 1 Peter to put it in those terms is pretty radical.

Babymaking machine? Where did you even get that? Just because the passage mentioned procreation, you realize of course, one of the main purpose of marriage is procreation, right?

The other poster that mentioned the lens you are looking through is right. You are interpreting things in modern terms through a feminist lens. Read more historical books (primary sources) and see that the way we express things changes over time, even if they mean the same thing.

One last thing, you went to how many years of Catholic schooling and didn’t know these passages existed? The Ephesians passage is read at Sunday Mass at least once every three years. (I myself had it for the second reading at my wedding). Sigh, I shouldn’t be surprised I guess. I too went to a Catholic university with a required theology class, and it always seemed like the Catholic school k-12 kids’ knowledge of the bible was sorely lacking.

 

[edwest2]

A lot of you are contorting things I have said… also, I should mention many of you are helpful, as well. Firstly, my friend is not an atheist. She’s a Muslim. e that showed that the Bible was equally as misogynistic in her defense of her own religion.

I believe that modern day talks of empowerment for women stem from the fact they were abused for centuries. I don’t think it’s all a thing of trying to have control OVER men, rather control over themselves. I don’t think in a relationship anyone should have control over anyone else. I feel as though in marriage the husband and wife should lead together. In my Catholic house growing up, my parents always made decisions together. They had equal say and equal influence on my Catholic faith. I didn’t know this was in contradiction with Catholic doctrine, but the implication by many of you, who I assume know what you are talking about, is that it does. This saddens me, but I came here for the truth, not to hear what I want to hear.

I was taught that marriage was mutual submission and self-sacrifice through Christ in my Catholic grade school, but these texts and many of you seem to agree that it is a woman’s role to submit and obey her husband as the church does to Christ and in turn the man simply loves the woman. I don’t understand what would be wrong with both parties loving as Christ, and both parties submitting to one another.

1 Peter 3:7 “Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.”

Weaker? This just makes another thing for me to have to explain to my friend. Or rather, I’ll have to come to terms with. To me this is ridiculous to imply women are weaker than men. I’ve met many strong women and men in my life. The only way women are weaker is physically, that’s a biological fact. I’ve met many, many women tough as nails. And, again with the babymaking machine…

I do believe feminism is a bit radical these days as well, but I also do firmly believe that women are just as capable leaders as men, and should be co-leaders in a marriage. It disappoints me that this apparently goes against my religion’s doctrine as I was not aware of this until today. I always thought the Catholic Church was on board… I suppose I’ve been ignorant.

Also, I find it appalling that anyone else had a say in who a woman would/could marry other than the woman and the man getting married. No one else should be able to make that decision. That’s terrible. An adult is capable of deciphering who is right for her and who is not. That’s part of history treating girls as property rather than people. Isn’t that even so in the church, that a marriage isn’t even valid in Catholocism without both parties consenting? That’s absurd that a father used to have say in his daughter’s marriage. It’s she and her fiancé’s marriage and theirs alone! No one else should have any say in the matter…

Also, I do not BELIEVE a marriage should be a parent/child relationship, but these texts do seem to paint them in similar lights. A parent takes care of/leads their child and would lay down their life for their kid, and in turn the child loves by being obidient to their parent and following their will trusting that their parent will make the right decision out of love… this is the identical sort of picture being painted by these Biblical quotes. This is unsettling to me because a parent and child are on different levels, whereas a man and a woman are of equal mental capacity and capability so it’s absurd that a woman should not also be a co-leader out of mutual submission with her husband also submitting to her. This disturbs me as a modern woman, yes.

I’m just surprised and disappointed that egalitarian marriage where both spouses have equal “power” and women as leaders like Christian, Carly Fiorina, and with talents that they implement other than just having babies and caring for them are seemingly condemned by these passages and in teaching with my faith. I took great pride in both my ambition to succeed in my own aspirations and career, my hopes to live as a Catholic with a Catholic marriage, which was also eglitarian where we both loved, respected, lead, parented, made decisions equally… and it’s been shaken.

No need to be shaken. Just find that guy who’s on board with your way of thinking. In my case, I thought I knew a lot when I was 21. Boy, was I wrong. Parents are your parents until you or they die. It sounds like you had good parents like mine.

But if you let “power sharing” be the guarantee of happiness in your marriage and he “steps out of line” once then what you going to do? A psychotherapist told me about a young lady who walked into her office and told her, “I’m divorcing my husband.” She asked her why, She said, “He yelled at me yesterday.” Imperfect human beings marry imperfect beings, too often not knowing the other person well enough before the ceremony.

If the past treatment of women hangs over you like a Sword of Damocles, then perhaps you should come to terms with “not all men are like that” or not marry at all. And by all means, pursue your career but plan ahead. I don’t like the idea of Day Care raising my little ones, followed by giving them a key when they get older, and mom and dad are just too busy to spend much time with their own kids. Kids are born blank. They aren’t stupid but they need rules, they need to be taught self-discipline and they need you there as you give them age-appropriate knowledge, and maybe have some fun together too.

Ed

 

[pianistclare]

A lot of you are contorting things I have said… also, I should mention many of you are helpful, as well. Firstly, my friend is not an atheist. She’s a Muslim. The topic came up because in history there was a discussion on the maltreatment of women in the Middle East and the topic pondered if it were due to the Qu’ran’s teachings. I said to her in question that does the Qu’uran say these things against women, and she was quick to bounce back with Bible verses she gathered online that showed that the Bible was equally as misogynistic in her defense of her own religion.

I believe that modern day talks of empowerment for women stem from the fact they were abused for centuries. I don’t think it’s all a thing of trying to have control OVER men, rather control over themselves. I don’t think in a relationship anyone should have control over anyone else. I feel as though in marriage the husband and wife should lead together. In my Catholic house growing up, my parents always made decisions together. They had equal say and equal influence on my Catholic faith. I didn’t know this was in contradiction with Catholic doctrine, but the implication by many of you, who I assume know what you are talking about, is that it does. This saddens me, but I came here for the truth, not to hear what I want to hear.

I was taught that marriage was mutual submission and self-sacrifice through Christ in my Catholic grade school, but these texts and many of you seem to agree that it is a woman’s role to submit and obey her husband as the church does to Christ and in turn the man simply loves the woman. I don’t understand what would be wrong with both parties loving as Christ, and both parties submitting to one another.

1 Peter 3:7 “Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.”

Weaker? This just makes another thing for me to have to explain to my friend. Or rather, I’ll have to come to terms with. To me this is ridiculous to imply women are weaker than men. I’ve met many strong women and men in my life. The only way women are weaker is physically, that’s a biological fact. I’ve met many, many women tough as nails. And, again with the babymaking machine…

I do believe feminism is a bit radical these days as well, but I also do firmly believe that women are just as capable leaders as men, and should be co-leaders in a marriage. It disappoints me that this apparently goes against my religion’s doctrine as I was not aware of this until today. I always thought the Catholic Church was on board… I suppose I’ve been ignorant.

Also, I find it appalling that anyone else had a say in who a woman would/could marry other than the woman and the man getting married. No one else should be able to make that decision. That’s terrible. An adult is capable of deciphering who is right for her and who is not. That’s part of history treating girls as property rather than people. Isn’t that even so in the church, that a marriage isn’t even valid in Catholocism without both parties consenting? That’s absurd that a father used to have say in his daughter’s marriage. It’s she and her fiancé’s marriage and theirs alone! No one else should have any say in the matter…

Also, I do not BELIEVE a marriage should be a parent/child relationship, but these texts do seem to paint them in similar lights. A parent takes care of/leads their child and would lay down their life for their kid, and in turn the child loves by being obidient to their parent and following their will trusting that their parent will make the right decision out of love… this is the identical sort of picture being painted by these Biblical quotes. This is unsettling to me because a parent and child are on different levels, whereas a man and a woman are of equal mental capacity and capability so it’s absurd that a woman should not also be a co-leader out of mutual submission with her husband also submitting to her. This disturbs me as a modern woman, yes.

I’m just surprised and disappointed that egalitarian marriage where both spouses have equal “power” and women as leaders like Christian, Carly Fiorina, and with talents that they implement other than just having babies and caring for them are seemingly condemned by these passages and in teaching with my faith. I took great pride in both my ambition to succeed in my own aspirations and career, my hopes to live as a Catholic with a Catholic marriage, which was also eglitarian where we both loved, respected, lead, parented, made decisions equally… and it’s been shaken.

Priests give homilies on this at least once a year.
I can’t believe you’ve have not had these passages explained in your presence before .

 

[Xantippe]

Priests give homilies on this at least once a year.
I can’t believe you’ve have not had these passages explained in your presence before .

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

It beats me how the interpretation works that proves that women aren’t supposed to be employers or bosses. You have to really streeeeetch the Bible verses to the point of snapping to get that (although I understand that that is a popular interpretation among some of the more exotic fundamentalist Protestants).

There is no way that that is a viable interpretation. For one thing, many prosperous OT households had male servants, so those men would find themselves working under the supervision of female employers just as a matter of course. Also, the Proverbs 31 woman buys a field and plants a vineyard. Did she do that with just female labor? Unlikely.

Taken to an extreme, the idea that a woman can never supervise a man would lead to ridiculous results. Can I, as a woman, never employ a male plumber, electrician, roofer, handyman, yard guy, carpenter, painter or taxi driver? What a pain in the neck.