Misogynistic Texts in the Bible?

[Xantippe]

Also, pragmatically speaking, it’s imprudent for a husband to push submission hard. Here’s why.

Having a “hard” view of submission and being the kind of guy that cannot be reasoned with and is unwilling to let the wife have a reasonable amount of autonomy or say in family decisions presents the wife with a dilemma (and having the “hard” views and being hard to deal with are very likely to go together):

1. She can either tell him about her plans in advance and have him shut her down.

or

1. She can just stop telling him about stuff and give him the mushroom treatment whenever she feels like she can get away with it.

#2 is obviously very undesirable, as it means that she no longer has the benefit of his (name removed by moderator)ut, but it was (I have to tell the guys) a VERY popular approach among seemingly submissive wives of the past.

In our social circle, there’s a husband who takes a “hard” view of wifely obedience and has insisted on his wife homeschooling a disabled child while she believes that homeschooling isn’t working well for the kid. Because the husband takes the “hard” view of submission and husbandly authority, his wife has gone with option #2. For quite a while, he didn’t even realize that the kid was going to a school-like program a couple days a week. (And the kid is doing very well, by the way.)

So, there’s some irony here–it’s possible for a husband to wind up having more (name removed by moderator)ut and getting more information if he has a softer more collaborative approach.

 

[1ke]

It seems you have swallowed feminist mythology hook, line, and sinker.

To get a really good understanding of the Church’s role in elevating the status of women, and debunking all these ideas planted by your “friend” and others, I highly recommend you read everything you can by Regine Pernoud. Pernoud is a renowned historian. Her works were originally in French, but most have been translated to English and are available on Amazon.

I recommend Women in the Days of the Cathedrals and Those Terrible Middle Ages. Of course, why stop there, her biographies are wonderful too.

The Church is the source of the dignity, respect, and freedom women enjoy today. The Church’s teaching on women stood alone among the pagan cultures of Christ’s time, and as we know Jesus taught us that the Jew’s had strayed far from God’s original teaching on men and women and their dignity.

 

[marymary1975]

I.agree that it seems.that the OP has been drinking radical.feminist look aid. There are very good responses already but just wanted to add that As to submission,read saints pope John.Paul II`s explanation as to submission. It is a mutual.submission to Christ. Please read theology of the body and mulieris dignitatem.

As to Ephesians.St Paul is.addressing a very specific.issue he was dealing at the time and that was the issue of certain women disrespecting and being very loud at the church. You need to read the scripture as a whole and.under the context. Don’t pick and choose certain phrases to make them.suit certain ideology and.please don’t let radical feminism to brainwash you.

 

[marymary1975]

So, if you wanted to heavily mortgage your house to start a new business and your wife was opposed to the idea, she should sign the papers anyway, even though she believed that you were leading your family to financial ruin?

My husband would never ask me to do that (in his right mind), but I would never sign those papers.

“I was just following orders” wasn’t a good enough defense for German soldiers, and it’s not good enough for wives.

Right! The whole who takes the final.decision.depends.on.many things. Depends.on the circumstances, depends on the two people.involved and their abilities, even Casta.Cannubis makes this.very clear. That is why I like JP II`s encyclicas.so much. He makes a great job explaining in a clear and understandable 20th century way explanation about all these issues.

 

[Bradski]

It all sounds great until you get to a point where a decision has to be made, and each spouse has a different resolution in mind. That is where I believe it is the husband’s job to make the decision (we are talking serious issues, not “what’s for dinner?”), taking into consideration his wife’s (name removed by moderator)uts, feelings,and desires. Trust me - as a husband, that weight is soooooooooo heavy. It is a taxing responsibility, one which we will be held accountable for, and one NOT to be taken lightly. I suspect many wives do not realize the burden and stress it puts on a loving husband who wants the best for his family. But that is what we are called to do and be, just as are wives have their calling, which is not easy to live out either.

Good grief.

I’ve decided to sell the house. I appreciate that you don’t want to and I’ve taken that into consideration. I guess you probably don’t realise how heavy a burden for me this has been. And you need to know, because you probably don’t, that I am a little stressed about it all as well. But it’s what I am called to do. Such is life. I have my place and you have yours and it’s mine to make these sort of calls.

Right. Now we’ve sorted that out, little lady, what’s for dinner?

 

[Xantippe]

Good grief.

I’ve decided to sell the house. I appreciate that you don’t want to and I’ve taken that into consideration. I guess you probably don’t realise how heavy a burden for me this has been. And you need to know, because you probably don’t, that I am a little stressed about it all as well. But it’s what I am called to do. Such is life. I have my place and you have yours and it’s mine to make these sort of calls.

Right. Now we’ve sorted that out, little lady, what’s for dinner?

Right.

There has to be some sort of consensus with regard to making major decisions. One spouse can’t just be making those decisions unilaterally. Nobody (man or woman) is smart enough to make all major family decisions. If the little woman is wringing her hands begging you not to do something–the odds are that she’s got a point.

Furthermore on the positive side, if a couple works toward consensus, they can virtually eliminate stupid mistakes from their family life. If Bob has terrible ideas 10% of the time and Suzie has terrible ideas 10% of the time and Bob and Suzie agree only to go forward with major enterprises when they both agree, it’s very likely that they will only have a major mistake once in a blue moon. Bob + Suzie can wind up making much better decisions than Bob by himself or Suzie by herself. Which, I would argue, at least partly explains why married couples are more prosperous than singles–there is a system of checks and balances that tends to filter out bad ideas and bad decisions. A “strong” view of wifely submission disables that system of checks and balances.

I just asked my husband what our last big mistake was. The only one he could think of was the fact that when he got his first real job 14 years ago, he didn’t set up his retirement. It was another 4+ years before he got around to doing it. I think I’d add that around the same time, we rented an apartment that we couldn’t actually afford for a couple of years and there were a couple of $100 or $200 boo boos, but that’s it–we haven’t made any big mistakes together in 10+ years. The ones we made were doozies, but I feel like the quality of our joint decision-making has gotten better and better as time goes on.

 

[Bradski]

Too right. It’s not called a partnership for nothing.

 

[sherimarie]

I just wanted to encourage the op.

I used to be bothered by those same texts. Until some old lady at church told me that St. Paul was being led by the constructs of the day and that he was “ignorant” ! The pride that she delivered that little gem with , opened my eyes to my own pride which was my stumbling block to understanding God’s plan for family life.

I still reread it (1 cor.)from time to time, because it is easier to do than it is to comprehend. When you marry a man that loves God more than anything else you will be happy to submit to his leadership. Crush your pride and be the wife and mother God intends you to be.

That doesn’t mean we blindly let him get away w/ murder! God expects us to love Him more than anything also and keeping the leadership in-check, on course and on time is part of the harmony of family life.

I hope you find peace and contentment in your vocation!

 

[Bradski]

I hope he cooks dinner…

 

[BornInMarch]

All the verses you picked were written by St. Paul.

While he was a great and pious apostle, that does not mean he was infallible or that he knew everything.

The gospels have several instances of Jesus acting against the misogyny of his era. The most potent example is the time Jesus saved a woman from being stoned to death, even though she was an admitted adulterer.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Good grief.

I’ve decided to sell the house. I appreciate that you don’t want to and I’ve taken that into consideration. I guess you probably don’t realise how heavy a burden for me this has been. And you need to know, because you probably don’t, that I am a little stressed about it all as well. But it’s what I am called to do. Such is life. I have my place and you have yours and it’s mine to make these sort of calls.

Right. Now we’ve sorted that out, little lady, what’s for dinner?

There isn’t much point to over the top, hyperbolic examples. The Church assumes most people having these discussions aren’t insane, and they truly have their family and spouse’s best interest at heart.

Unilaterally deciding to sell the home without consultation clearly wouldn’t be an example the Church would deign to cite, so why should anyone here?

Let’s use a bit of common sense. Unless you can guarantee that the two spouses will agree on a decision 100% of the time, someone will ultimately have to make the call, or else no decision is made. I leave the running of the household to my wife by and large, because she is with my children all day, knows their routines and is able to more rapidly attend to their needs. When it comes to running my company, which supports us, I am better able to grasp the finer details that make the decision points discernable, because I am embroiled in it. I certainly consult her, and lean on her for advice and her perspective, but as soon as I begin to unload all the details it has taken me quite long to acquire and gather, she generally defers, because there is no time to educate her on that which has taken me months or years to acquire.

Xantippe had some good points about how best to handle some major decisions, but like I said, sometimes decisions have to be made, and neither of us can wait for 100% agreement before having to make the call.

 

[Xantippe]

There isn’t much point to over the top, hyperbolic examples. The Church assumes most people having these discussions aren’t insane, and they truly have their family and spouse’s best interest at heart.

Unilaterally deciding to sell the home without consultation clearly wouldn’t be an example the Church would deign to cite, so why should anyone here?

Let’s use a bit of common sense. Unless you can guarantee that the two spouses will agree on a decision 100% of the time, someone will ultimately have to make the call, or else no decision is made. I leave the running of the household to my wife by and large, because she is with my children all day, knows their routines and is able to more rapidly attend to their needs. When it comes to running my company, which supports us, I am better able to grasp the finer details that make the decision points discernable, because I am embroiled in it. I certainly consult her, and lean on her for advice and her perspective, but as soon as I begin to unload all the details it has taken me quite long to acquire and gather, she generally defers, because there is no time to educate her on that which has taken me months or years to acquire.

Xantippe had some good points about how best to handle some major decisions, but like I said, sometimes decisions have to be made, and neither of us can wait for 100% agreement before having to make the call.

Thanks!

I think that unless something’s on fire, a couple should wait until there is some sort of consensus for major joint household decisions–like the home sale example. When one member of a couple gets a bright idea that they can’t get the other spouse to understand or get on board with, it’s often a really bad one.

For your examples, maybe the principle of subsidiarity should be the governing idea?

“Subsidiarity is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority. Political decisions should be taken at a local level if possible, rather than by a central authority.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity_(Catholicism

Hence, the parent who spends most of their time specializing in home and kid stuff should get a certain amount of leeway and benefit of the doubt in dealing with home and kid issues, while the spouse who is primarily working deserves leeway and benefit of the doubt with regard to work issues (but in both cases, at some level of decision the other spouses deserves to be called in for a judgment call).

It can be really offensive not to have one’s judgment trusted in an area where one is theoretically the expert and where one does the vast majority of the work. A year or so ago, my husband and I had to iron out the fact that he felt the need to continually “help” me by optimizing home and personal stuff for me that I didn’t feel required his (name removed by moderator)ut. For instance, I’d have my bangs growing annoyingly into my eyes and want to get a $12 haircut from SuperCuts. My husband would say, “Do you really NEED a haircut?” as if I’d go for a haircut just for the heck of it. Or I’d be going to the grocery store and he’d say, “Do you really NEED to go to the grocery store?” as if the grocery store were Nordstrom’s, Tiffany’s or Disneyland and as if our family didn’t run out of stuff every single day. He didn’t realize it, but when he micromanaged me like that 1) it made me really mad and 2) it made me feel 4 inches tall 3) it made me feel like he didn’t trust my judgment about even the tiniest things 4) it made me reluctant to tell him stuff 5) it wasted time and 6) created unnecessary conflict. And all that damage to my self-esteem and to our relationship was over a maximum of maybe $5-$10 total a month in extra expenses–and maybe not even that.

If I, a middle-aged lady with three kids, am not competent to decide when I need a haircut or to go grocery shopping, what am I competent to decide? Fortunately, I was eventually able to persuade my husband that it’s more important that I feel competent and trusted than for us to do things EXACTLY right. So what if I go to the store one extra time a week or get a haircut a week early?–big whoop. We’re not going to starve.

But, there does come a level of decision where both spouses need to understand and agree on a decision. I’m a big Dave Ramsey fan, and I really like his emphasis on keeping the at-home spouse in the loop as to what’s going on with the business and finances. DR came to this point of view very naturally, having created a highly-leveraged real estate empire that his wife didn’t really understand. After they lost everything to foreclosures and bankruptcy and started rebuilding, he brought his wife into the loop and started running major decisions past her and having more respect for her native caution. Regardless of gender, I think a business-owning spouse ought to do the same thing with the non-business spouse.

daveramsey.com/index.cfm?event=askdave/&intContentItemId=125185

 

[Sarcelle]

Thanks!

I think that unless something’s on fire, a couple should wait until there is some sort of consensus for major joint household decisions–like the home sale example. When one member of a couple gets a bright idea that they can’t get the other spouse to understand or get on board with, it’s often a really bad one.

For your examples, maybe the principle of subsidiarity should be the governing idea?

“Subsidiarity is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority. Political decisions should be taken at a local level if possible, rather than by a central authority.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity_(Catholicism

Hence, the parent who spends most of their time specializing in home and kid stuff should get a certain amount of leeway and benefit of the doubt in dealing with home and kid issues, while the spouse who is primarily working deserves leeway and benefit of the doubt with regard to work issues (but in both cases, at some level of decision the other spouses deserves to be called in for a judgment call).

It can be really offensive not to have one’s judgment trusted in an area where one is theoretically the expert and where one does the vast majority of the work. A year or so ago, my husband and I had to iron out the fact that he felt the need to continually “help” me by optimizing home and personal stuff for me that I didn’t feel required his (name removed by moderator)ut. For instance, I’d have my bangs growing annoyingly into my eyes and want to get a $12 haircut from SuperCuts. My husband would say, “Do you really NEED a haircut?” as if I’d go for a haircut just for the heck of it. Or I’d be going to the grocery store and he’d say, “Do you really NEED to go to the grocery store?” as if the grocery store were Nordstrom’s, Tiffany’s or Disneyland and as if our family didn’t run out of stuff every single day. He didn’t realize it, but when he micromanaged me like that 1) it made me really mad and 2) it made me feel 4 inches tall 3) it made me feel like he didn’t trust my judgment about even the tiniest things 4) it made me reluctant to tell him stuff 5) it wasted time and 6) created unnecessary conflict. And all that damage to my self-esteem and to our relationship was over a maximum of maybe $5-$10 total a month in extra expenses–and maybe not even that.

If I, a middle-aged lady with three kids, am not competent to decide when I need a haircut or to go grocery shopping, what am I competent to decide? Fortunately, I was eventually able to persuade my husband that it’s more important that I feel competent and trusted than for us to do things EXACTLY right. So what if I go to the store one extra time a week or get a haircut a week early?–big whoop. We’re not going to starve.

But, there does come a level of decision where both spouses need to understand and agree on a decision. I’m a big Dave Ramsey fan, and I really like his emphasis on keeping the at-home spouse in the loop as to what’s going on with the business and finances. DR came to this point of view very naturally, having created a highly-leveraged real estate empire that his wife didn’t really understand. After they lost everything to foreclosures and bankruptcy and started rebuilding, he brought his wife into the loop and started running major decisions past her and having more respect for her native caution. Regardless of gender, I think a business-owning spouse ought to do the same thing with the non-business spouse.

daveramsey.com/index.cfm?event=askdave/&intContentItemId=125185

I know in the business world leadership is often mistaken for micromanaging. I think is more of a distortion of leadership.

Good managers and leaders do not micromanage.