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DavidFilmer
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I posted my comment above before I read this second posting.
I wish Rumble or Carty had cited this…
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I wish Rumble or Carty had cited this…
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DavidFilmer
Guest
You can find writings online at ccel.org/fathers2. Searching is rather poor, but you can search the collection with Google using a site-specific Google query such as:
“chair of peter” “no error” cyprian site:ccel.org
(or just fill out the Advanced Search form). Note this collection was published (over 100 years ago) by a protestant publishing house.
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challenger
Guest
Yes, the quote is in Catholicism and Fundamentalism. It’s wrong there, too 
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challenger
Guest
It doesn’t look like they answered it on the Q & A board… but CA really needs to know about this. Anyone here ever call in to Catholic Answers live?
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DavidFilmer
Guest
I know the “Ask an Apologist” forum is sometimes backed up, but it does seem by now that my question in that space regarding this topic will not be answered.
I can only assume the reason is that there IS no good answer, except “yeah, we screwed up,” which maybe CA does not want to admit.
We can only conclude that CA is publishing blatently FALSE information and is not doing anything about it. Very sad for all faithful Catholics.
This has significantly degraded my regard for CA.
I can only assume the reason is that there IS no good answer, except “yeah, we screwed up,” which maybe CA does not want to admit.
We can only conclude that CA is publishing blatently FALSE information and is not doing anything about it. Very sad for all faithful Catholics.
This has significantly degraded my regard for CA.
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challenger
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I’m going to try some more. If one Protestant apologist gets wind of this, CA is forever toasted, and all Catholic apologetics is seriously damaged.
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challenger
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Gah, all the technology malfunctions… can someone here who gets Keating’s e-letter give me his email addy?
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challenger
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Anyone?
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Fidelis
Guest
Isn’t this somewhat of an over-reaction?
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challenger
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An egregious misquotation of a Church Father is a big deal, Fidelis.
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PhilVaz
Guest
The tract is not making a big argument from that quote. But I’ll agree the author could change that short mis-quote from this:
As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, “Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, “Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).
To this:
As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, “…[the heretics] dare even to set sail…to the chair of Peter and the principal Church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source…whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for perfidy [errors of faith or heresy] to have entrance.” (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he is summarized as saying, “Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).
And all is well. Accuracy and precision counts.
Phil P
As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, “Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, “Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).
To this:
As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, “…[the heretics] dare even to set sail…to the chair of Peter and the principal Church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source…whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for perfidy [errors of faith or heresy] to have entrance.” (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he is summarized as saying, “Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).
And all is well. Accuracy and precision counts.
Phil P
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DavidFilmer
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Agreed. The problem with a big, fat, juicy misquote is that LOTS of people will pick up on it. Just Google the phrase “seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors” and you will see what I mean. This is a pretty potent expression which is NOT supported by the source text. Where did all these hits on Google get this phrase? I’ll bet a lot of this misinformation originated with Catholic Answers, which is a **shameful **thing to say about such a respected organization!
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RikasAngel
Guest
Hello All,
Protestant Author Eric Svendsen contends that Catholic Apologists are not being honest. He’s written a book called Upon this Slippery Rock, which is supposed to refute Catholic Apologist’s claims to Papal Authority. I hope that this misquote is unintentional. If infact Mr. Keating quoted Radio Replies without knowing the translation was faulty, it exonerates him. If it is not accidental, then it is very troubling. I hope Catholic Answers addresses this quickly. Protestants like Ankerberg, White, Hanegraaff, and Svendsen are just drooling for an oppertunity to discredit Mr. Keating and Catholic Answers.
Protestant Author Eric Svendsen contends that Catholic Apologists are not being honest. He’s written a book called Upon this Slippery Rock, which is supposed to refute Catholic Apologist’s claims to Papal Authority. I hope that this misquote is unintentional. If infact Mr. Keating quoted Radio Replies without knowing the translation was faulty, it exonerates him. If it is not accidental, then it is very troubling. I hope Catholic Answers addresses this quickly. Protestants like Ankerberg, White, Hanegraaff, and Svendsen are just drooling for an oppertunity to discredit Mr. Keating and Catholic Answers.
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challenger
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I PMed KK, but he hasn’t read it yet.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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DavidFilmer
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Gottle of Geer:
Welcome, Michael, to this discussion. You may have missed my previous post (#15) which also made points similar to your own. But I am glad to be confirmed in my opinions by someone of your stature. Some have defended the CA quote as a “paraphrase,” but is certinally not justifiable. The CA quote is a fantasy (and possibly an outright lie). It is a shameful thing, and CA has (so far) ignored all opportunities by me and others to correct this blatant error, much to their shame and discredit.
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challenger
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He still hasn’t read my PM. The email submission forms don’t work for me. Can someone please either email KK or give me his email?
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mardukm
Guest
I hope it is OK to respond to this very old thread since it was recently brought to my attention.
(1) Sin - that’s obviously wrong since no one is impeccable.
(2) Lack of belief/trust in God - not likely, since St. Cyprian is making this statement in direct contrast to the Novatians, unless you propose that St. Cyprian believed the Novatians were godless apostates.
(3) Doctrinal faith - this is the only possible interpretation.
Having said that, I do NOT support liberal quotations of the Fathers.
Blessings,
Marduk
That is a typical Latin Catholic response, since Latin Catholics generally define “unity” on the basis of ecclesiastical communion. Easterns and Orientals (i.e., Orthodox in communion with Rome), however, define “unity” on the basis of orthodoxy. I, as an Oriental Catholic, would agree that “priestly unity” can be identified with “apostolic faith.”
Actually, in the context of St. Cyprian’s statement, it is. There’s only three possible interpretations of the “faithlessness” which has no access to the Church of Rome:
(1) Sin - that’s obviously wrong since no one is impeccable.
(2) Lack of belief/trust in God - not likely, since St. Cyprian is making this statement in direct contrast to the Novatians, unless you propose that St. Cyprian believed the Novatians were godless apostates.
(3) Doctrinal faith - this is the only possible interpretation.
Having said that, I do NOT support liberal quotations of the Fathers.
Blessings,
Marduk
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