Misquotes by Mohammed?

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From Sura 7-40:

“Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty”.

Is this Muhammed’s misunderstanding of Mark 10:25?
 
Dear iamrefreshed:
Please read the below text:

What parts of the Bible do Muslims believe are closest to the Truth?

"The Noble Quran came to CONFIRM the Truth that exists in the Bible. Allah Almighty NEVER claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible. The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man’s alteration in it. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded:

“Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (The Noble Quran, 7:157)”

“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment be tween right and wrong). (The Noble Quran, 3:3)”

“To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (The Noble Quran, 5:48)”

“That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for God is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - well acquainted and Fully Observant. (The Noble Quran, 35:31)”

That is why we Muslims believe in only the parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran. The parts that contradict the Noble Quran are not the Truth:

“That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)”

“Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)”

“O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, ‘If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!’ If any one’s trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God’s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)”

“Say: ‘O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.’ If then they turn back, say ye: ‘Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah’s Will).’ (The Noble Quran, 3:64)”
 
Let us look at Noble Verses 7:37-43:

"37. Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against God or rejects His Signs? For such, their portion appointed must reach them from the Book (of decrees): until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, they say: “Where are the things that ye used to invoke besides God?” They will reply, “They have left us in the lurch,” And they will bear witness against themselves, that they had rejected God.
  1. He will say: “Enter ye in the company of the peoples who passed away before you - men and jinns, - into the Fire.” Every time a new people enters, it curses its sister-people (that went before), until they follow each other, all into the Fire. Saith the last about the first: “Our Lord! it is these that misled us: so give them a double penalty in the Fire.” He will say: “Doubled for all” : but this ye do not understand.
  2. Then the first will say to the last: “See then! No advantage have ye over us; so taste ye of the penalty for all that ye did !”
  3. To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin.
  4. For them there is Hell, as a couch (below) and folds and folds of covering above: such is Our requital of those who do wrong.
  5. But those who believe and work righteousness,- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear,- they will be Companions of the Garden, therein to dwell (for ever).
  6. And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury;- beneath them will be rivers flowing;- and they shall say: “Praise be to God, who hath guided us to this (felicity): never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of God: indeed it was the truth, that the apostles of our Lord brought unto us.” And they shall hear the cry: “Behold! the garden before you! Ye have been made its inheritors, for your deeds (of righteousness).” (The Noble Quran, 7:37-43)"
 
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True-Jesus:
Let us look at Noble Verses 7:37-43:
“Noble Verses?”

Geez, this guy really brings new meaning to the saying “The only virtue no devil can imitate is humility.”
 
True-Jesus,

I assume by your post you are Muslim?

I will tell you outright, that the name you have selected on this Catholic forum is offensive. I would never join a Muslim forum and degrade the name of Allah or Muhammed.

Therefore, since you show no respect for my religion, I will not discuss this any further with you.
 
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iamrefreshed:
True-Jesus,

I assume by your post you are Muslim?

I will tell you outright, that the name you have selected on this Catholic forum is offensive. I would never join a Muslim forum and degrade the name of Allah or Muhammed.

Therefore, since you show no respect for my religion, I will not discuss this any further with you.
He is a Muslim, using Jesus`s name and Religion he mentioned None.
Illegal entries are here.
In Christ,
selvaraj
 
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

**
Iamrefreshed:** From Sura 7-40:

“Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty”.

Is this Muhammed’s misunderstanding of Mark 10:25?

Jermin Savory: The Qur’an was not Written from the prophet’s (P) Mind, The Qur’an is divine inspiration. Mark 10:25 is not a misunderstanding of the Prophet (P), please look at the passage carefully.
 
To All Christian Brothers/Sister:

The reason I choose the ID ‘True-Jesus’ is to let you people know that:

There are more than 1.2 billion muslims around the globe who accept Jesus (peace be up on him), as Messiah (translated Christ in Greek) and his name is mentioned twenty five times in the Holy Quran, five times more than Prophet Muhammad (peace be up on him).
Besides there is a whole chapter (surah) dedicated to the mother of Jesus (peace be up on him), Mary (may God Almighty be pleased with her).

Second, no muslim is a muslim if he/she does not believe in Jesus (pbuh) as Messiah and one of the mightest messengers of God Almighty that were sent to guide mankind (from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Jesus to Muhammed-pbut).Believing in Jesus is part of their articles of faith.

So Islam is the only non-“christian” faith that accepts Jesus (pbuh) as Messiah. It is the only faith that can unite all three monothiestic religions-Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

-Because if you are a “Christian” with true faith in catholic teachings then you won’t accept Muhammad (pbuh) as a Prophet and as for Jews, you consider them “Christ crucifiers” though politically you may have a different attitude towards Jews. So the door is closed here for jews and muslims unless they accept in what you believe but believing you for them means they have to reject their own views.

If you are a Jew, then you won’t accept Jesus as your Messiah rather wait for an another supposed imaginary Messiah who is yet to come for the first time. And also you won’t accept muslims because they consider Jesus as Messiah, who will be coming again in the final days of this world. So to become a Jew for them is impossible because Christians will never reject Jesus and Muslims cannot give up their very article of their faith which is believing in Jesus the Messiah (pbuh).

**But it is only Muslims who accept all the Prophets of God Almighty and believe in true treachings of Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) and they make no distinction between any Prophets of God Almighty.

Therefore accepting Islam means accepting and uniting all the true teachings of all the Prophets (pbuht) of God Almighty**.

In this, I select my ID as ‘True-Jesus’, because:
a true follower of Jesus (pbuh) will look forward due to his last prophecy:
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you” (John 16:12-13)
 
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iamrefreshed:
True-Jesus,

I assume by your post you are Muslim?

I will tell you outright, that the name you have selected on this Catholic forum is offensive. I would never join a Muslim forum and degrade the name of Allah or Muhammed.

Therefore, since you show no respect for my religion, I will not discuss this any further with you.
Probably he’s an atheist just trying to bring confusion to this forum.
 
So far he is teaching precisely what Islam teaches. The Novatianists taught that Jesus was not God but accept Him as a man. This heresy was popular at the time of Muhammad’s development of the his new religion. In theory this expression of Islam that this fellow offers holds some hope for world peace. Stephen Scwartz’s (“The Two Faces of Islam”) a convert to Islam certainly thinks so. One problem is Islam is basically a Christian heresy. Another is that when actions are incongruous with words the group expressing the words cannot be trusted. For over 1400 years Muslims in the name of Allah have butchered people in order to expand Islam over the face of the earth. To read the accounts of how Christians and Jews have been treated by Muslim conquerors is enough to make a person weep for the suffering millions. This treatment of Christians and Jews by Muslims has not stopped. All one needs do is look at Sudan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and on and on.

It is a misunderstanding of Islam to think that all Muslims are trying to kill us. It is NO misunderstanding to realize that even traditional Islam is not compatible with Christianity and it is NO to realize that many would like to kill us.

Dan L
 
We gave Musa the Book and sent a succession of Messengers after him. We gave 'Isa, son of Maryam, the Clear Signs and reinforced him with the Purest Spirit. Why then, whenever a Messenger came to you with something your lower selves did not desire, did you grow arrogant, and deny some of them and murder others? (2:87)

Say, 'We believe in Allah and what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to Ibrahim and Isma’il and Ishaq and Ya’qub and the Tribes, and what Musa and ‘Isa were given, and what all the Prophets were given by their Lord. We do not differentiate between any of them. We are Muslims submitted to Him.’ (2:136)

These Messengers: We favoured some of them over others. Allah spoke directly to some of them and raised up some of them in rank. We gave Clear Signs to 'Isa, son of Maryam, and reinforced him with the Purest Spirit. If Allah had willed, those who came after them would not have fought each other after the Clear Signs came to them, but they differed. Among them there are those who believe and among them there are those who disbelieve. If Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other. But Allah does whatever He desires. (2:253)

When the angels said, 'Maryam, your Lord gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, ‘Isa, son of Maryam, of high esteem in this world and the hereafter, and one of those brought near. He will speak to people in the cradle, and also when fully grown, and will be one of the righteous,’ she said, ‘My Lord! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?’ He said, ‘It will be so.’ Allah creates whatever He wills. When He decides on something, He just says to it, ‘Be!’ and it is. He will teach him the Book and Wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel, as a Messenger to the tribe of Israel, saying: ‘I have brought you a Sign from your Lord. I will create the shape of a bird out of clay for you and then breathe into it and it will be a bird by Allah’s permission. I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead to life, by Allah’s permission. I will tell you what you eat and what you store up in your homes. There is a Sign for you in that if you are believers. I come confirming the Torah I find already there, and to make lawful for you some of what was previously forbidden to you. I have brought you a Sign from your Lord. So have fear of Allah and obey me. Allah is my Lord and your Lord so worship Him. That is a straight path.’ When 'Isa sensed disbelief on their part, he said, ‘Who will be my helpers to Allah?’ The disciples said, ‘We are Allah’s helpers. We believe in Allah. Bear witness that we are Muslims. Our Lord, we believe in what You have sent down and have followed the Messenger, so write us down among the witnesses.’ They plotted and Allah plotted. But Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said, '‘Isa, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who disbelieve. And I will place the people who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Rising. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed.’ (3:45-55)

The likeness of 'Isa in Allah’s sight is the same as Adam. He created him from earth and then He said to him, ‘Be!’ and he was. It is the truth from your Lord so do not be among the doubters. (3:59-60)
 
Jesus saying “I and the Father are One.”:

Before we start on John 10:30 Verse, let us examine some of the exaggerating expressions that were said by Jesus himself in the New Testament:

An exaggerating expression in the Bible: The Bible contains many verses in it that contain irrational statements. For instance we read in Matthew 21:21 " Jesus replied, ‘I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.’" I challenge any “faithful” believing Christian to move one brick, not a mountain with his sight or words. Have any Christian from the time of Jesus till now been able to do it?

Another exaggerating expression is in Mark 16:17-18 “And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” Again, I challenge any Christian to allow himself to get bit by a poisonous rattle snake or cobra and survive its venom.

Does this mean no “Christian” is a real Christian? Did Jesus say that no one will ever be a believer, since they can’t lift mountains with their eye sights nor survive deadly poisons?

Does the Bible contain exaggerating expressions in it? and if so, then how can you take the “Trinitarian” verses so literal then? They too are nothing but exaggerations (as I proved below in this article) that do not prove that Jesus is the Creator of this Universe.
 
**Let us look at John 10:30 “I (Jesus) and the Father are One.” ** This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context, because beginning at verse John 10:23 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: “…Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are One.”

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either’s hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God’s equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL…," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 “That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in
them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE”. In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus and the Father but to describe Jesus, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.

Of the verse in question, “I and the Father are One” in (John 10:30), we also need to take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text: “The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '” (John 10:33).

Jesus replies to this accusation saying: “Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, “Thou blasphemeth,” because I said I am the son of God?’” (John 10:34-36).

Let us look at Acts 2:22 “O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you…” Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus. Jesus thus even to his disciples, as to early Christians, not poisoned by Pauline doctrine, was a man, not a God.

From www.jewsforjudaism.org:

Question: In John 10:30 Jesus says, “I and the Father are one [hen].” Doesn’t this show that they are one in essence?

This statement does not suggest either a dual or triune deity. What John’s Jesus meant by the word hen (“one”) becomes clear from his prayer concerning the apostles: “That they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen]” (John 17:22), which means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God, as stated: “I [Jesus] always do the things that are pleasing to Him [God]” (John 8:29).
There is thus no implication that Jesus and God, or the twelve apostles are to be considered as of one essence.
 
**The third verse which Christians claim validates the doctrine of the trinity is the verse of John 10:30 **

“I and my father are one.”

This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:

“And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.”

John 10:23-30

In divinity? In a holy “Trinity”? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus’ hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God’s hand.

Need more proof? Then read:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.”

John 17:20-22

Is all of mankind also part of the “Trinity”?

Such terminology can be found in many other places, read for example:

“Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,”

1 Corinthians 6:15-17

And also

“One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

Ephesians 4:6

And

“For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

1 Corinthians 12:12-14

Once we read the above verses and understand what the message was that Paul was trying to get across, then we can begin to understand his words in such places as

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

Ephesians 4:4

"St. Paul" was speaking about Christian unity, not about a plurality of gods merged into one body. He was completely ignorant of where his teachings would later lead, and how decades later, they would be the foundations which would spawn the “Trinity” doctrine.
 
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True-Jesus:
-Because if you are a “Christian” with true faith in catholic teachings then you won’t accept Muhammad (pbuh) as a Prophet and as for Jews, you consider them “Christ crucifiers” though politically you may have a different attitude towards Jews. So the door is closed here for jews and muslims unless they accept in what you believe but believing you for them means they have to reject their own views.
You are mistaken. As you correct our views concerning Islam, please accept correction regarding Christianity. The Jews are not and were not “Christ crucifiers”. The Gospel is clear in this matter. Christ was crucified by pagan Romans. At most, some leaders of the Jewish temple supported his crucifixion in scriptural contrast to the Jewish multitudes who mourned.
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True-Jesus:
In this, I select my ID as ‘True-Jesus’, because: a true follower of Jesus (pbuh) will look forward due to his last prophecy:
This doesn’t change the fact that you are giving offence. This is a Catholic forum and you should respect the sensibilities of others.

Irenicist
 
Irenicist :
“You are mistaken. As you correct our views concerning Islam, please accept correction regarding Christianity. The Jews are not and were not “Christ crucifiers”. The Gospel is clear in this matter. Christ was crucified by pagan Romans. At most, some leaders of the Jewish temple supported his crucifixion in scriptural contrast to the Jewish multitudes who mourned”
Sorry, I do know what is Catholic Church’s new attitude towards Jews.
It was in 1965, that the Roman Catholic Church partially abandoned its historical stance towards Jews and Judaism. In a remarkable reversal of their position, the Church rejected its earlier teachings that:

All of the Jews in Palestine circa 30 CE were responsible for the execution of Jesus.
All Jews who are currently living are also responsible for Jesus’ death.
God has rejected Jews because they murdered of Jesus.

Lets have a brief description of past centuries view:

3rd century CE: Origen (185 - 254 CE): “The blood of Jesus falls not only on the Jews of that time, but on all generations of Jews up to the end of the world.”
St. Cyprian of Carthage (circa 200 - 258): “This name rebukes and condemns the Jews who not only spurned Christ faithlessly, but also cruelly executed Him Who was announced to them by the prophets, and sent first to their nation. No longer may they call God their Father, because the Lord confounds and refutes them, saying: ‘your father is the devil’ [John 8:44]. O sinful nation, O people weighed down with guilt, breed of evil-doers, lawless children, you have turned your backs on the Lord and have provoked the Holy One of Israel.”

4th century CE: St Athanasius (circa 296 - 373): Jews “…have no abiding place, but they wander everywhere … But in every place they transgress the law, and as the judgments of God require; they keep days of grief instead of gladness. Now the cause of this to them was the slaying of the Lord, and that they did not reverence the Only Begotten … Therefore the Lord cursed them under the figure of the fig tree.”
St. Hilary of Poitiers (315 - 367) referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever.
John of Antioch (347 - 407) (a.k.a. John Chrysostom): He delivered a group of four homilies titled “Against the Jews”. Homily 4 said, in part: “The difference between the Jews and us in not a small one, is it? Is the dispute between us over ordinary, everyday matters, so that you think the two religions are really one and the same? Why are you mixing what cannot be mixed? They crucified the Christ whom you adore as God. Do you see how great the difference is? How is it, then, that you keep running to those who slew Christ when you say that you worship him whom they crucified?”

5th century CE: St. Jerome (circa 345 - 420): “Judas betrayed Me [Jesus], the Jews persecuted and crucified Me…In particular, this is the story of Judas; in general it is that of the Jews…Judas is cursed, that in Judas the Jews may be accursed.”
St. Augustine (354 - 430) wrote: “The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus.”

On another occasion, he wrote: “Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ.”

7th century: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain in 694 CE defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other church fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their collective responsibility for the death of Jesus.

11th to 13th centuries: The First Crusade was launched in 1096 CE. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from Muslim control, Jews were a secondary target of opportunity. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged with the order: “Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!” 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for eight additional crusades until the 9th Crusade in 1272. Hundreds of thousands of defenseless Jews died in the attacks.

13th century: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris in 1200 CE that “the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord…As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ’s death set free…”

continued
 
(Remaining part of my previous post)

In an epistle to the Count of Nevers, he wrote: “…the Jews, against whom the blood of Christ calls out, although they ought not to be killed, nevertheless, as wanderers they must remain upon the earth until their faces are filled with shame and they seek the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

In an epistle to the Hierarchy of France, he wrote: “Crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection.”

15th century: Blessed Juliana of Norwich (1342 - 1423), “I knew in my faith that the Jews were accursed and condemned without end, except those who were converted [to Christianity].”
Pope Innocent IV (1432 - 1492): “…strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondswoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves.”

** 18th century**: St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori (1696 - 1787): “Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads in saying: ‘His blood be on us and our children’; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the end of time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood.” Liguori was referring to Matthew 27:21-25 which describes an alleged interchange between Pilate, the Roman Procurator of Palestine and Phoenicia, and a Jewish mob. These verses are probably responsible for more loss of Jewish life than any other passage in the Bible:
Matthew 27:21-25: “The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.” King James Version.

(“Pharsea,” “The Supposed Perfidy of the Jews,” Faithful to the Truth, St. John Chrysostom, “Eight Homilies Against the Jews,” Medieval Sourcebook,
Max Solbrekken, “The Jews & Jesus: Mistreatment of Jews: Christian shame,”
 
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True-Jesus:
In this, I select my ID as ‘True-Jesus’, because:
a true follower of Jesus (pbuh) will look forward due to his last prophecy: “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you” (John 16:12-13)
I find this very funny. If you knew anything you would know that the Author of this Gospel was refering to the Holy Spirit. It sounds like you are going to some Anti-Catholic web site or something to get your info. I suggest you don’t do that, the Catholics on this forum know there stuff and you can’t tell them otherwise. You will get canned right away. 🙂
 
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True-Jesus:
(long snip)

(“Pharsea,” “The Supposed Perfidy of the Jews,” Faithful to the Truth, St. John Chrysostom, “Eight Homilies Against the Jews,” Medieval Sourcebook,
Max Solbrekken, “The Jews & Jesus: Mistreatment of Jews: Christian shame,”
I see this is going to be a hard row to hoe, but you misunderstand the gist of what the Fathers are writing. They are not describing the Jews as literal deicides. They are using rethorical flourishes to make a number of points their largely Christian audience would have understood:

Christ preached specifically to the Jews. The bulk of them rejected Him, thus making His sacrifice vain (for them). Thus they rendered His death and suffering purposeless (for them). In this they are “guilty” of His death and crucifixion, just as Christians who apostize and fall away are guilty of His death. As the Jews pass on this rejection of Christ to their children, so too do they pass on this “guilt”. But this is “guilt” in a figurative not literal sense. None of the Church Fathers you quote proposed “punishing” Jews for this “guilt” or holding them somehow responsible for Christ’s death.

The fact that Jews were not held personally responsible for His death is demonstrated by the legal protections they (as opposed to pagans and Muslims, for example) enjoyed in Christian lands and the fact that they were welcomed as converts. Indeed, so welcome were they that any Jew who converted in medieval Europe automatically became a free man enjoying higher social and legal status than the millions of Christian serfs.

There is no denying there has always been a stream of antisemitism within Christianity, and the carreer of Peter the Hermit clearly demonstrates that some Christians took the idea of Jewish “guilt” a bit too literally. But you will not find a single formal Catholic (or Orthodox) doctrinal statement over the past 2,000 years, either by a Pope or a council, formally charging the Jews with “responsibility” for Christ’s death (which is what “actual” guilt in the literal sense would amount to).

So it isn’t the doctrine that has changed. What has changed is a new emphasis on the positive attributes of Judaism which had previously been downplayed and even devalued. Also, and especially since the Holocaust, churchmen have become far more cautious of the language they use and no longer talk of “guilt” and passive responsibility.

Irenicist
 
Irenicist:

You first told me that :
:“The Jews are not and were not “Christ crucifiers”. The Gospel is clear in this matter. Christ was crucified by pagan Romans. At most, some leaders of the Jewish temple supported his crucifixion in scriptural contrast to the Jewish multitudes who mourned”.

And when I qouted what were actual views/attitudes of Catholic Church throughout the centuries, you all of a sudden changed your rejecting tone to apologetic but confusing at the same time which is evident from your recent post.

Now while being apologetic you are trying to either confuse yourself or confusing me by saying “They are not describing the Jews as literal deicides” when in the qoutes the attitude is very very clear and there is no need to mystify it by attributing and giving new meaning. Any person with elementary common sense can understand what has been said and you do not need a doctor of divinity to explain it.

I am really amazed how people changed their stand all of a sudden and think not how they will be perceived.

And then you don’t stop here but go further to defend those “Christ Killers” stand which makes someone more laughable than your previous stand. This reminds me:
of the witness who was in a court case more active than the plaintiff or the complainant himself.

Or in other words it is like:

“Being more loyal to the crown than the King himself.”

or

"Being more Catholic than the Pope himself.”

This is really ridiculous and amazing…but I want you to take a look again by keeping your eyes open enough the following words and try not to read your own deliberate thoughts/words in them but rather see them as they are and ask yourself : Hey what I said earlier? and what I should say now when these words really need no clarification?

**3rd century CE: Origen (185 - 254 CE): “The blood of Jesus falls not only on the Jews of that time, but on all generations of Jews up to the end of the world.” **

St. Hilary of Poitiers (315 - 367) referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever.

John of Antioch (347 - 407) (a.k.a. John Chrysostom): “They crucified the Christ whom you adore as God. Do you see how great the difference is? How is it, then, that you keep running to those who slew Christ when you say that you worship him whom they crucified?”

5th century CE: St. Jerome (circa 345 - 420): “Judas betrayed Me [Jesus], the Jews persecuted and crucified Me…In particular, this is the story of Judas; in general it is that of the Jews…Judas is cursed, that in Judas the Jews may be accursed.”

St. Augustine (354 - 430) wrote: “The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus.”

On another occasion, he wrote: “Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ.”

7th century: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain in 694 CE defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other church fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their collective responsibility for the death of Jesus.

11th to 13th centuries: The First Crusade was launched in 1096 CE. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from Muslim control, Jews were a secondary target of opportunity. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged with the order: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for eight additional crusades until the 9th Crusade in 1272. Hundreds of thousands of defenseless Jews died in the attacks.
 
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