Missa De Angelis

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Sorry about the confusion on my last thread. This is actually something I’m wondering about. 🙂

I’ve heard people hint towards the idea that Missa De Angelis (Mass VIII) is not “real” chant. Does anyone know why this is, and can explain it to me? It’s certainly much closer to chant than The Mass of Creation, or Gather us In, but that’s beside the point.

I know it is clearly more suitable for Mass than what is heard in most parishes today, but still, my question has been lingering.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

Note: Please don’t turn this into a discussion arguing about chant’s proper place in the liturgy. That is clear enough if you read the church’s documents with honesty. If you want, I’d love to chat with you about it, but please start a new thread or PM me.
 
TheMc said:
Sorry about the confusion on my last thread. This is actually something I’m wondering about. 🙂

I’ve heard people hint towards the idea that Missa De Angelis (Mass VIII) is not “real” chant. Does anyone know why this is, and can explain it to me? It’s certainly much closer to chant than The Mass of Creation, or Gather us In, but that’s beside the point.

I know it is clearly more suitable for Mass than what is heard in most parishes today, but still, my question has been lingering.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

Note: Please don’t turn this into a discussion arguing about chant’s proper place in the liturgy. That is clear enough if you read the church’s documents with honesty. If you want, I’d love to chat with you about it, but please start a new thread or PM me.
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Actualy, Missa De Angeleis is the default setting used at nearly all of the Papal Masses at the Vatican (and at St. John Lateran). I reckon, if it’s good enough for the Holy Father, it’s good enough for me! 👍

Truth be told, my dad’s parish used it last year for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul.
 
The Missa de Angelis (Mass VIII) is in the Kyriale (among other books) and is considered part of the Church’s repertoire of chant. The question of whether or not Mass VIII is technically considered “Gregorian Chant” is a scholarly one that has to be answered by, well, a scholar in the field.

Slightly off-topic, but several years back there was an article about Mass VIII in the New Liturgical Movement that might be of interest.
 
In the good old times when I was in seminary (fifties) we sung almost exclusively the VIII (De Angelis) or IX (For BMV) in common Sundays.

The 1961 Liber Usualis recommends both for feast, for common Sundays there is Mass XI.

We used an earlier copy of the Liber Usalis, I do no remember this distinction (for Paschal time, for 1st class feats, for 2nd class feats, for Sundays etc) only the numbering
 
benedictgal said:
Actualy, Missa De Angeleis is the default setting used at nearly all of the Papal Masses at the Vatican (and at St. John Lateran). I reckon, if it’s good enough for the Holy Father, it’s good enough for me! 👍

Truth be told, my dad’s parish used it last year for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul.
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BG,
Personally, I love this setting. I didn’t know it’s used at the papal Masses, but it doesn’t surprise me with our wonderful pope! I’d rather hear it than the Mass of creation that I am currently enduring…

malphono,
That’s the kind of thing I was looking for, the scholarly debate on if it is “real” gregorian chant or not. The NLM article is interesting, btw.

Any chant scholars out there willing to pipe in on why it does or doesn’t qualify as real chant?
 
TheMc said:
Any chant scholars out there willing to pipe in on why it does or doesn’t qualify as real chant?
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I wholly disclaim any right to be called a “chant scholar,” but according to the notations in the Graduale Romanum, the chants of Mass VIII date as follows:
  • Kyrie: 15th-16th century
  • Gloria: 16th century
  • Sanctus: 11th or 12th century
  • Agnus Dei: 15th century
  • Ite: not states, but based on the Kyrie
Setting the Sanctus aside, then, you’ve got a group of chants invented in the 14- or 1500’s. The Renaissance started in approximately the year 1400, so these are Renaissance-era (probably mid- to high-Renaissance era) chants, that well postdate the development of polyphony. The Kyrie might easily be as late as Tallis or Byrd.

That’s what people mean by saying they’re not “Gregorian.” It’s not that their style isn’t of the right type, but rather that they have no better claim on the term than something I might write tomorrow in the same style.

Although I liked this line in the NLM piece: “This seems to be the pre-conciliar version of the Mass of Creation.” Lol.
 
MarkThompson said:
I wholly disclaim any right to be called a “chant scholar,” but according to the notations in the Graduale Romanum, the chants of Mass VIII date as follows:
  • Kyrie: 15th-16th century
  • Gloria: 16th century
  • Sanctus: 11th or 12th century
  • Agnus Dei: 15th century
  • Ite: not states, but based on the Kyrie
Setting the Sanctus aside, then, you’ve got a group of chants invented in the 14- or 1500’s. The Renaissance started in approximately the year 1400, so these are Renaissance-era (probably mid- to high-Renaissance era) chants, that well postdate the development of polyphony. The Kyrie might easily be as late as Tallis or Byrd.

That’s what people mean by saying they’re not “Gregorian.” It’s not that their style isn’t of the right type, but rather that they have no better claim on the term than something I might write tomorrow in the same style.

Although I liked this line in the NLM piece: “This seems to be the pre-conciliar version of the Mass of Creation.” Lol.
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I also think the Mass of Creation comment is pretty funny. The name fits right in too:
The Mass of Creation
The Mass of the Angels
Not to different, eh? At least the latter actually follows the text. 😛

Mark, thanks for the info about Mass 8. That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the help!
 
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