Missal Enquiries

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obvious_ron

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At a used book vendor in the local mall, I purchased a Saint Joseph Daily Missal and a Roman Missal in Latin and English for Holy Week and Easter. They are both copyright 1966. Could you please let me know what point this is in the history of liturgical development for the Catholic church? I do understand that this is after Vatican II, but I don’t know what form the mass took in 1966 or how much it had been revised by then.

Thanks very much.
 
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obvious_ron:
At a used book vendor in the local mall, I purchased a Saint Joseph Daily Missal and a Roman Missal in Latin and English for Holy Week and Easter. They are both copyright 1966. Could you please let me know what point this is in the history of liturgical development for the Catholic church? I do understand that this is after Vatican II, but I don’t know what form the mass took in 1966 or how much it had been revised by then.

Thanks very much.
What is commonly known as the Traditional Latin Mass is usually a Mass offered according to the 1962 Missal.

In 1965 a new Missal was released. It is largely the TLM translated into English. And it incorporated the desires of te bishops of Vatican II.

In 1970 it was replaced with the 1970 Missal. This is what is commonly called the Novus Ordo Mass.

So, what you have is kinda like a hybrid of the TLM and the NO.

God bless,

James
 
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obvious_ron:
At a used book vendor in the local mall, I purchased a Saint Joseph Daily Missal and a Roman Missal in Latin and English for Holy Week and Easter. They are both copyright 1966. Could you please let me know what point this is in the history of liturgical development for the Catholic church? I do understand that this is after Vatican II, but I don’t know what form the mass took in 1966 or how much it had been revised by then.

Thanks very much.
From a historical viewpoint the Missal that you have is rather rare. The Mass at that time was basically the Traditional Mass said in the vernacular. It was a transitional mass said until all the changes reccommended by Vatican II could be worked out. There were several minor changes, not many, from the 1962 Missal. It was often referred to the Vatican II Missal. In 1970, the whole thing was scrapped, and the Novus Ordo Mass was introduced.

I have a copy of a Maryknoll Sunday Missal from 1964 but I have never seen a St. Josephs from that era. I would be very interested in seeing and comparing certain parts. Is there a chance we could speak via PM and see is we could arrange something.?
 
Thank you both for your responses. I’m quite glad that I purchased these items, especially the holy week missal.

I didn’t know that the new mass wasn’t finalized until 1970, but when I saw these two books, I figured that they might be unique.

When this transitional mass was in practice, did the priest face the same way as the people as is done in the pre-Vatican II Latin rite mass?
 
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obvious_ron:
Thank you both for your responses. I’m quite glad that I purchased these items, especially the holy week missal.

I didn’t know that the new mass wasn’t finalized until 1970, but when I saw these two books, I figured that they might be unique.

When this transitional mass was in practice, did the priest face the same way as the people as is done in the pre-Vatican II Latin rite mass?
I have heard that in some places the priest “faced the people” and in other places the priest faced God (more accurate than saying he had his back to the people). It probably varied from place to place. This was a time of widespread liturgical experimentaion.

Actually even in the Novus Ordo the document detailing how it is to be celebrated (the General Instruction of the Roman Missal or GIRM) seems to assume that for most of the Mass the priest is facing east. There are several places where the priest is instructed to turn towars the people,

Even today it is the priest’s option as to which side of the altar he is on during the consecration.

James
 
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obvious_ron:
Thank you both for your responses. I’m quite glad that I purchased these items, especially the holy week missal.

I didn’t know that the new mass wasn’t finalized until 1970, but when I saw these two books, I figured that they might be unique.

When this transitional mass was in practice, did the priest face the same way as the people as is done in the pre-Vatican II Latin rite mass?
It depended on the Priest. Some faced the altar, others the people. The great wave of altar rebuilding or tearing out or replacing in many places did not start until the late 60’s or early 70’s. Often a folding table would be used if the Priest chose to face the people.

It should be noted that a great many priests did not embrace the new rubrics for quite some time and continued to say the Traditional Mass.
 
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James0235:
Actually even in the Novus Ordo the document detailing how it is to be celebrated (the General Instruction of the Roman Missal or GIRM) seems to assume that for most of the Mass the priest is facing east. There are several places where the priest is instructed to turn towars the people,
Could you give an example or two of this? Or, is there a version of the GIRM that one can look for online?
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James0235:
Even today it is the priest’s option as to which side of the altar he is on during the consecration.
It would be interesting to see a priest offer the new mass while facing forwards rather than facing the people. It would also be interesting to see people’s reactions to it.
 
The transition of the Tridentine to the current missal is a subject on which I have written a number of articles. I have all of the altar missals from the transition period and it is a familiar subject to me.

Contrary to what has been stated here, there was no missal issued in 1965. What occurred was that in 1964, a revised Order of Mass (Ordo Missæ) was issued, for use beginning on Advent Sunday, 1964 (which is when the liturgical year 1965 really began). This was not en entire edition of the missal, but just the ordinary of the Mass, i.e., the Mass prayers that did not change from week to week. The collects, antiphons and readings remained those from the 1962 edition of the Tridentine missal.

The posture of the priest was not regulated by this missal so, as has already been stated, one could find priests facing both altar and people. However, altar editions of the missal printed in 1964-65 in this country by Benziger and the increasingly popular Roman Catholic Books–which came to dominate the post-Vatican II liturgical publishing scene–included the revised Ordo Missæ, and added a new diagram showing how to incense a detached, free-standing altar, immeidately below the traditional diagram of the attached, oriented altar. In practice, High Masses in 1965-66 in this country became mostly versus populum, while Low Masses, often at side altars on the weekdays, were still largely versus Deum, if we can allow that expression here. In some cases it was left up to the priest, but in many dioceses, the bishop made known, informally or otherwise, that he expected that most Masses would be versus populum and with a considerable use of the vernacular.

As for the Mass itself, the parts considered to be the people’s were the first rendered in the vernacular, so the 1965 Order includes the antiphons in English and the congregation was encouraged to join the choir in singing these. The difficulty with this was that no approved melodies as yet existed; these were very quickly improvised and thrown into the increasingly confusing mix of changes. The sung ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei) was rended into the vernacular, as were the readings. For the first time, prayers of the faithful were introduced, so this became an additional vernacular portion. The collects and all prayers recited alone by the priest continued in Latin. The Canon of the Mass continued in Latin and to be said silently by the priest, but instead of just per omnia sæcula sæculorum (for ever and ever) being said or sung aloud at the end, the entire doxology (Through Him, with Him, and in Him, etc.) was audible. The last gospel was supressed in 1965. Concelebrated Masses were also introduced during this period.

In January, 1966, the U.S. bishops decreed that nearly the entire Mass could be celebrated in the vernacular, except inaudible prayers said by the priest. So this thrust the collect, secret and postcommunion prayers into the vernacular, as were the prayers at the foot of the altar. By the end of that year, people were hearing all audible prayers in the vernacular and the priest was praying all of the inaudible prayers in Latin. People’s missals reflected this. Generally, the only audible Latin words people heard aloud were those of the doxology (Per ipsum, et cum ipsum et in ipsum, etc.–the Through Him, with Him and in Him, etc. mentioned above) at the end of the Canon of the Mass.

OK, I went on too long on this one. I shall save more for another time.
 
As for the rubrics of the new Mass, they seems to presuppose that the altar may not automatically be facing the people and, consequently, they periodically direct the priest at certain times to face the people, as opposed to the altar.

The rubrics direct the priest to face the people at the beginning of the Mass, immediately after the sign of the cross, but before he greets the people. The directions at the offertory, for the offering of the host and chalice, indicate how he should be at the altar, holding up host and chalice over the altar. When Mass is facing the people, this obviously means that the priest is standing in the same place throughout the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but when the altar is not freestanding, it means that he must be sure to face the altar to complete these offertory actions, and face the people when the rubrics inidcate. (This is more common in Europe, where churches were not wreckovated so drastically, as they were here. Sometimes the small spaces available at side altars and chapels did not lend themselves to placing a table in front of an existing altar, and Mass is still celebrated using the attached altars.)

At the Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren…), the rubrics direct the priest to face the people from the center of the altar, clearly implying that he may not be at the other offertory actions. In fact, unless the rubrics direct him to face the people, as mentioned above, it is assumed that he is facing the altar, which may or may not be versus populum.

At the invitation to communion ("This is the lamb of God who takes away…’), he is again directed to face the people. He is again directed to face them at the concluding rite, just before the blessing.
 
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obvious_ron:
Could you give an example or two of this? Or, is there a version of the GIRM that one can look for online?
The priest is unstructed when to face the people implying that he is not facing the people at other times:

1975 GIRM (superceded by the 2002 GIRM)
** 107. The priest returns to the center and, facing the people and extending then joining his hands, pronounces the invitation: <Pray, brothers and sisters>. After the people’s response, he says the prayer over the gifts with hands outstretched. At the end the people make the acclamation: .**

** 115. After the prayer the priest genuflects, takes the eucharistic bread, and, holding it slightly above the paten while facing the people, says: . With the people he adds, once only: <Lord, I am not worthy to receive you>.**

** 122. Then, standing at the altar or at the chair and facing the people, the priest says, with hands outstretched: . There may be a brief period of silence, unless this has been already observed immediately after communion. He recites the prayer after communion, at the end of which the people make the response: .**

**2002 GIRM (the current one)

****124. …Then, facing the people and extending his hands, the priest greets the people, using one of the formulas indicated. The priest himself or some other minister may also very briefly introduce the faithful to the Mass of the day.
  1. Upon returning to the middle of the altar, the priest, facing the people and extending and then joining his hands, invites the people to pray, saying, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren). The people rise and make their response: Suscipiat Dominus (May the Lord accept). Then the priest, with hands extended, says the prayer over the offerings. At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.**
    **
  2. When the prayer is concluded, the priest genuflects, takes the host consecrated in the same Mass, and, holding it slightly raised above the paten or above the chalice, while facing the people, says, Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God). With the people he adds, Domine, non sum dignus (Lord, I am not worthy).**
The GIRM can be found online in numerous places. Here are a couple of sites:

1975 GIRM
2002 GIRM (the current one)
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obvious_ron:
It would be interesting to see a priest offer the new mass while facing forwards rather than facing the people. It would also be interesting to see people’s reactions to it.
There was recently an entire thread about this.Lux et veritas (aka Diane) posted some awesome pictures of an ad Orientem Novus Ordo Mass at her parish.

God bless,

James
 
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James0235:
What is commonly known as the Traditional Latin Mass is usually a Mass offered according to the 1962 Missal.

In 1965 a new Missal was released. It is largely the TLM translated into English. And it incorporated the desires of te bishops of Vatican II.

In 1970 it was replaced with the 1970 Missal. This is what is commonly called the Novus Ordo Mass.

So, what you have is kinda like a hybrid of the TLM and the NO.

God bless,

James
The Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI) a hybrid of the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo? Not even close. The Novus Ordo is NOT what the fathers of Vatican II had envisioned. See Fr. Fessio’s article on what the fathers did and did NOT say in 1963.

www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html
 
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PreVatII:
The Novus Ordo (Mass of Paul VI) a hybrid of the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo? Not even close. The Novus Ordo is NOT what the fathers of Vatican II had envisioned. See Fr. Fessio’s article on what the fathers did and did NOT say in 1963.

www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html
No. Try reading what I actually wrote. He has 2 Missals from 1966 (which is before there was a Novus Ordo). Given that what was in use at this time was basically an English translation of the 1962 Missal then it does seem kinda like a hybrid Mass.

I never suggested that the NO was what the Fathers of VII envisioned.

James
 
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palmas85:
From a historical viewpoint the Missal that you have is rather rare. The Mass at that time was basically the Traditional Mass said in the vernacular. It was a transitional mass said until all the changes reccommended by Vatican II could be worked out. There were several minor changes, not many, from the 1962 Missal. It was often referred to the Vatican II Missal. In 1970, the whole thing was scrapped, and the Novus Ordo Mass was introduced.

I have a copy of a Maryknoll Sunday Missal from 1964 but I have never seen a St. Josephs from that era. I would be very interested in seeing and comparing certain parts. Is there a chance we could speak via PM and see is we could arrange something.?
Speaking of “older” missals, I just look up two old ones that I still own. One was a gift for Christmas, 1947 with a copyright of 1888.

The second one has copyright of 1888 and and 1916 by John Murphy Company. Both are in pretty good condition.
 
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