Missing gospels hidden in the Vatican

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mongladz:
Hello,

I hope this Infancy Gospel of Thomas helps and surely a lot of

secrets here can be read here. Just don’t be too inspired because they are not inspired :confused:.

Peace! 🙂
Thanks. I also read that before. This document is supposed to make us believe that while Jesus was a child he murdered another child.
 
I have seen several programs about the Inquisition which were based on partially opened “secret files of the Inquistion” which are allegedly in the Vatican.

I would like to have access to the whole show.
 
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udral:
I have seen several programs about the Inquisition which were based on partially opened “secret files of the Inquistion” which are allegedly in the Vatican.

I would like to have access to the whole show.
“Allegedly” means you have no clue if they are there or not.
“secret files of the Inquisition” partially opened??
Give me a break. Who could be so gullible to believe rubbish like that? Oh! maybe Dan Brown!!
 
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udral:
I have seen several programs about the Inquisition which were based on partially opened “secret files of the Inquistion” which are allegedly in the Vatican.

I would like to have access to the whole show.
All files of the inquisition have been open to historians for a long time now. There was a good reason for this as the conspircay theorist and protestant historiancs with an agenda exagerrated the Inquistion to some type of religious guluag. By going back to the documents a more realistic view of the sitiuation can be reported and written by historians and not taken or exagerrated out of context. Recent historical reanyalysis has led to such productions such as the BBC
Speical on the Inquistion which dymythologized the whole process and that the amount of deaths are roughly what we in america commit by having the death penalty. It also was very judicial process and not some type of Salem Witch Trial where no judicial process was really given. Ergo People were proabably guilty of what they were accuses of. The exact opposite is what is promoted in anti-catholic cirlces.
 
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Wisdom:
All files of the inquisition have been open to historians for a long time now. There was a good reason for this as the conspircay theorist and protestant historiancs with an agenda exagerrated the Inquistion to some type of religious guluag. By going back to the documents a more realistic view of the sitiuation can be reported and written by historians and not taken or exagerrated out of context. Recent historical reanyalysis has led to such productions such as the BBC
Speical on the Inquistion which dymythologized the whole process and that the amount of deaths are roughly what we in america commit by having the death penalty. It also was very judicial process and not some type of Salem Witch Trial where no judicial process was really given. Ergo People were proabably guilty of what they were accuses of. The exact opposite is what is promoted in anti-catholic cirlces.
I saw that series, it was really interesting.
 
thistle said:
“Allegedly” means you have no clue if they are there or not.
“secret files of the Inquisition” partially opened??
Give me a break. Who could be so gullible to believe rubbish like that? Oh! maybe Dan Brown!!

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=6706

That’s Catholic World News:
**Jan. 14, 1998
VATICAN (CWN) – The Vatican will open the archives of the Holy Roman Office-- now known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith-- to all qualified researchers, beginning on January 22. That announcement, made public by the Vatican today, will allow scholars to examine the internal history of the Inquisition. **
These archives are not the same as the famous “secret archives” of the Vatican, which concern the internal administration of the Church. Those secret archives, too, are open to qualified scholars. They have been the focus of some discussion insofar as they shed light on the conduct of the Holy See during the Nazi persecution of Jews. However, the archives traditionally remain secret for a period of years, until a pope opens the archives of a predecessor. Pope John Paul, for example, has opened the archives that cover the pontificates of Popes Leo XIII (1878-903), Pius X (1903-1914), and Benedict XV (1914-1922). The secret archives of subsequent pontificates remain sealed.
The archives of the Holy Office contain 4,500 volumes, although there are some gaps caused by historical events such as Napoleon’s removal of the archives to Paris
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=6772
**Ratzinger explains opening of Inquisition files **
Jan. 23, 1998
VATICAN (CWN) – At the Vatican yesterday, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger addressed a meeting of scholars convened to discuss the opening of the archives of the Holy Office-- the Inquisition. The archives have been opened to serious scholars in order to encourage dialogue and understanding of that historical epoch.
In 1991 some of the archives were opened to some scholars, on a limited basis, to test the plans. The archives of the Holy Office had been the last resources to remain closed. He acknowledged that some of the materials contained in these archives are “very delicate” and “very serious,” and require some discretion and prudence on the part of those who make them public. In the past access to such sensitive archives has been allowed on a case-by-case basis.
For a secular prespective:

atheists.org/flash.line/vatican1.htm
Web Posted: April 19, 1998
everal weeks ago we reported the decision of the Vatican to finally open some of the files pertaining to the Inquisition
Maybe so. But there are concerns that Mother Church may not be “telling all,” a fear that compounds a problem for historians. Many of the files of the Inquisition office were seized by Napoleon’s troops in 1810 and lost. And the 4,500 volumes that will be presented for examination at the Vatican do not cover the period after 1903. The Times described this collection as “off limits – a can of worms that will stay unopened to avoid aggravating such disputes as abortion, clerical celibacy and papal infallibility that divide Catholics today.”
Code:
**The Vatican has also had ample time to review and, if necessary, sanitize the Inquisition records. Ginzburg's original request to the pope was made in a 1979 letter. In 1991, the church began permitting a select group of scholars limited access to the records, and it was only in January of this year -- 19 years later -- that the archives were opened to "qualified researches" of any religious belief.**
The program I saw actually included interviews with high up Church officials: inquisitionproductions.com/home.html You can read about it here if you are interested.

Here’s one of the people they interviewed in the program:
VERY REVEREND JOSEPH AUGUSTINE DI NOIA **
Undersecretary of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, The Vatican
Appointed by Pope John Paul II, Rev Joseph Augustine Di Noia is a Dominican priest, theologian and member of the CUA Board of Trustees. **

Rev. Joseph Augustine Di Noia is also adjunct professor at St. Joseph Seminary in Dunwoodie, N.Y and a professor of theology at the Dominican House of Studies in Washington. Prior to his work at the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center, he served for many years as executive director of the Secretariat for Doctrine and Pastoral Practices of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops (now the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops).
As they say, those who have nothing to hide hide nothing.

Why can’t the Church simply post every single one of those files online where people such as myself could examine them and discuss them.
 
Wisdom said:
All files of the inquisition have been open to historians for a long time now. There was a good reason for this as the conspircay theorist and protestant historiancs with an agenda exagerrated the Inquistion to some type of religious guluag. By going back to the documents a more realistic view of the sitiuation can be reported and written by historians and not taken or exagerrated out of context. Recent historical reanyalysis has led to such productions such as the BBC
Speical on the Inquistion which dymythologized the whole process and that the amount of deaths are roughly what we in america commit by having the death penalty. It also was very judicial process and not some type of Salem Witch Trial where no judicial process was really given. Ergo People were proabably guilty of what they were accuses of. The exact opposite is what is promoted in anti-catholic cirlces.

I posted some links in the above post and it seems that they are open to scholars/qualified researches. What I would like to see is them being open to everyone, including people like you and me. I am not a historian but I would nonetheless like to see those records and make my own conclusions about them.

The program I saw on the Inquisition which I linked to in the previous post and which was based on this very opening of the records to scholars (they read some records, quoted form them etc. as far as I recall), and had interviews with many scholars and even a high up Church official in the CDF.

From what I recall of the program it seemd that there wasn’t complete access to it, and their portrayal of the Inquisition was very much gulag-like. Maybe it wasn’t as efficient in persecuting thought crimes, but that’s what they were doing. Censorship, thoughtcrimes, religions rather than political prisoners etc. There were specific examples of actual cases of people. I recall one boiled alive in oil (it was a student “convicted” of being a Lutheran), many thrown into a pit in the ground (i.e. prison cell). Not that the Church officially boiled people in oil, but after they were convicted by the Inquistion they were conveniently handed over to the secular authorities who would execute the punishment. How can I know what the Church actually did if I don’t have access to the records? In the spirit of openness and truth the Church should scan them and post them on the internet.

Obviously there are serious and legitimate concerns about whether the Church has held back some things that might have been really atrocious/embarrassing to them. What if it was not the Church but another government organization? Say the Soviety Communist party was still around and people were demanding access to records of what the KGB did and what went on in the gulag, and then they first didn’t let anyone see them, then allowed access on a limited/case-by-case bases, and then a few decades after they went ahead and made records available to scholars. Wouldn’t you have legitimate doubts about whether they held back?

If there is really nothing bad in those files then the Church should have uploaded them all onto the internet and showed the world! If it was really such a judicial process, then all it would do is put to rest the wild speculations about what might be in those records.

As it stands there is some concern in the secular community that the Church is editing/revising history, and that now people such as yourself view the Inquisition as a “judicial proces.”
 
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udral:
I posted some links in the above post and it seems that they are open to scholars/qualified researches. What I would like to see is them being open to everyone, including people like you and me. I am not a historian but I would nonetheless like to see those records and make my own conclusions about them.

The program I saw on the Inquisition which I linked to in the previous post and which was based on this very opening of the records to scholars (they read some records, quoted form them etc. as far as I recall), and had interviews with many scholars and even a high up Church official in the CDF.

From what I recall of the program it seemd that there wasn’t complete access to it, and their portrayal of the Inquisition was very much gulag-like. Maybe it wasn’t as efficient in persecuting thought crimes, but that’s what they were doing. Censorship, thoughtcrimes, religions rather than political prisoners etc. There were specific examples of actual cases of people. I recall one boiled alive in oil (it was a student “convicted” of being a Lutheran), many thrown into a pit in the ground (i.e. prison cell). Not that the Church officially boiled people in oil, but after they were convicted by the Inquistion they were conveniently handed over to the secular authorities who would execute the punishment. How can I know what the Church actually did if I don’t have access to the records? In the spirit of openness and truth the Church should scan them and post them on the internet.

Obviously there are serious and legitimate concerns about whether the Church has held back some things that might have been really atrocious/embarrassing to them. What if it was not the Church but another government organization? Say the Soviety Communist party was still around and people were demanding access to records of what the KGB did and what went on in the gulag, and then they first didn’t let anyone see them, then allowed access on a limited/case-by-case bases, and then a few decades after they went ahead and made records available to scholars. Wouldn’t you have legitimate doubts about whether they held back?

If there is really nothing bad in those files then the Church should have uploaded them all onto the internet and showed the world! If it was really such a judicial process, then all it would do is put to rest the wild speculations about what might be in those records.

As it stands there is some concern in the secular community that the Church is editing/revising history, and that now people such as yourself view the Inquisition as a “judicial proces.”
It seems you do not accept the word of the Catholic Church and the only reason you want access to everything is to find something against the Church. People like you generally have no interest in the truth when it comes to the Catholic Church. You simply want to bash it and you would be disappointed if you could not find anything to support your anti-Catholic views.
 
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udral:
Why can’t the Church simply post every single one of those files online where people such as myself could examine them and discuss them.
The Church is not alone among those institutions that limit archive access to pre-qualified individuals. My impression is it is pretty standard practice.

:twocents:
tee
 
The secret archives are no different from any special collection in a University library. With credentials one can get into it, but as is perfectly reasonable, they don’t let every Tom, Dick and Harry rummage through it on fishing expeditions.

Scott
 
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thistle:
It seems you do not accept the word of the Catholic Church and the only reason you want access to everything is to find something against the Church. People like you generally have no interest in the truth when it comes to the Catholic Church. You simply want to bash it and you would be disappointed if you could not find anything to support your anti-Catholic views.
Wow, well you can think what you like, but I actually want to know the truth of what happened. I don’t want to read second hand reports of scholars biased toward or against Catholicism. I want to see the records for myself, free of bias.
 
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tee_eff_em:
The Church is not alone among those institutions that limit archive access to pre-qualified individuals. My impression is it is pretty standard practice.

:twocents:
tee
Sure, but the Church also has to realize that this kind of pratice with respect to the Inquisition makes many people wonder what they are hiding.

If they want to keep the details of how they elected Pope Benedict secret, that’s quite fine by me. But restricting access to historical documents about a highly controversial historical event only makes me wonder why they’re doing it.

The fact is that the majority of people have an extremely negative view of the Inquisition and the Church’s role in it. Releasing all the records to the general public seems like it would be a good way to prove those people wrong.

Imagine if the Soviet Communists were still around and were hiding records of KGB activity despite immense interest, speculation, and eventually access to scholars. What would you think? Business as usual, or maybe there is a lot to hide after all?
 
Scott Waddell:
The secret archives are no different from any special collection in a University library. With credentials one can get into it, but as is perfectly reasonable, they don’t let every Tom, Dick and Harry rummage through it on fishing expeditions.

Scott
I can look at any special collections in my university’s library simply because I am a student. I don’t need special credentials. As far as I know anyway…

I can’t do the same with the Inquisition records. Why can’t they at least release them to libraries, so that they can be stored as special collections and university students could read them? Every single one of them?

I don’t want to touch the original copies! I would be perfectly happy with scans, photocopies, whatever. I just want to know what’s in the records.
 
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udral:
I can look at any special collections in my university’s library simply because I am a student. I don’t need special credentials.

I can’t do the same with the Inquisition records. Why can’t they at least release them to libraries, so that they can be stored as special collections and university students could read them? Every single one of them?
Because it is not necessary.
 
Why can’t the Church simply post every single one of those files online where people such as myself could examine them and discuss them.
Heh. Would YOU like to be in charge of doing that? It would probably take about a thousand years to put everything in the Vatican Secret Archives online, and I don’t think that’s an exaggeration.

The main reason we’re reticent about flinging open the doors to the Vatican basement is the spaceship. No, I don’t think the world is ready for THAT one yet…
 
Scott Waddell:
Because it is not necessary.
That’s your opinion. There are some people who are very interested in those records, and in fact it would be the best way for the Church to dispel any anti-Catholic Inquisition myths, if they exist.

Think about it, if the Inquisition really wans’t about torture, about boiling people in oil and burning them at the stake and imprisoning them for disagreeing with the Church, then there is such an easy way to prove it! Put those records on the internet, within a few weeks every person with an internet connection will see and judge for himself.

Right now the general view of the Inquisition is pretty much waht I outlined in the above paragraph. If this view is false, why doesn’t the Church make an effort to share the truth with the rest of the world?
 
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montanaman:
Heh. Would YOU like to be in charge of doing that? It would probably take about a thousand years to put everything in the Vatican Secret Archives online, and I don’t think that’s an exaggeration.

The main reason we’re reticent about flinging open the doors to the Vatican basement is the spaceship. No, I don’t think the world is ready for THAT one yet…
Maybe they could use some of that Nazi gold to fund such an expensive endeavor. 😃
 
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montanaman:
Heh. Would YOU like to be in charge of doing that? It would probably take about a thousand years to put everything in the Vatican Secret Archives online, and I don’t think that’s an exaggeration.

The main reason we’re reticent about flinging open the doors to the Vatican basement is the spaceship. No, I don’t think the world is ready for THAT one yet…
Haha, well, you know, I think if the Vatican was willing to do so they would suddenly find a great number of volunteers willing to help. It’s amazing what many people can do when they put their minds to it.

They could at least start the process.

The Inquisition is pretty big on the list of criticisms people make against the Church. It could very well be the thing that tips some people away from Catholicism, they could even be losing their souls!!!

If all those popular conceptions of the Inquisition are wrong, why not prove them wrong?
 
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udral:
Haha, well, you know, I think if the Vatican was willing to do so they would suddenly find a great number of volunteers willing to help. It’s amazing what many people can do when they put their minds to it.

They could at least start the process.
Yeah, maybe they could cut it down to 500 years.

But, they did start the process. Here’s a great article on it from National Review a couple of years ago:

The Real Inquisition
Investigating the popular myth.


By Thomas F. Madden

When the sins of the Catholic Church are recited (as they so often are) the Inquisition figures prominently. People with no interest in European history know full well that it was led by brutal and fanatical churchmen who tortured, maimed, and killed those who dared question the authority of the Church. The word “Inquisition” is part of our modern vocabulary, describing both an institution and a period of time. Having one of your hearings referred to as an “Inquisition” is not a compliment for most senators.

But in recent years the Inquisition has been subject to greater investigation. In preparation for the Jubilee in 2000, Pope John Paul II wanted to find out just what happened during the time of the Inquisition’s (the institution’s) existence. In 1998 the Vatican opened the archives of the Holy Office (the modern successor to the Inquisition) to a team of 30 scholars from around the world. Now at last the scholars have made their report, an 800-page tome that was unveiled at a press conference in Rome on Tuesday. Its most startling conclusion is that the Inquisition was not so bad after all. Torture was rare and only about 1 percent of those brought before the Spanish Inquisition were actually executed. As one headline read “Vatican Downsizes Inquisition.”

The amazed gasps and cynical sneers that have greeted this report are just further evidence of the lamentable gulf that exists between professional historians and the general public. The truth is that, although this report makes use of previously unavailable material, it merely echoes what numerous scholars have previously learned from other European archives. Among the best recent books on the subject are Edward Peters’s Inquisition (1988) and Henry Kamen’s The Spanish Inquisition (1997), but there are others. Simply put, historians have long known that the popular view of the Inquisition is a myth. So what is the truth?

To understand the Inquisition we have to remember that the Middle Ages were, well, medieval. We should not expect people in the past to view the world and their place in it the way we do today. (You try living through the Black Death and see how it changes your attitude.) For people who lived during those times, religion was not something one did just at church. It was science, philosophy, politics, identity, and hope for salvation. It was not a personal preference but an abiding and universal truth. Heresy, then, struck at the heart of that truth. It doomed the heretic, endangered those near him, and tore apart the fabric of community.

The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state. Roman law in the Code of Justinian made it a capital offense. Rulers, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw them as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath. When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig or damaged shrubbery (really, it was a serious crime in England). Yet in contrast to those crimes, it was not so easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. For starters, one needed some basic theological training — something most medieval lords sorely lacked. The result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge.

(Cont’d)
 
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