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fix
Guest
No. Jesus said to the apostles he who hears you hears Me. Jesus and His Church cannot be separated. These successors of the Apostles have authority.
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onetimeposter
Guest
It seems as simple as a punishment, do this or else.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
In the Mass, God becomes present to us the same way as if we were in heaven. The Liturgy imitates heaven in various ways.
Heaven is spending eternity with God. Why would someone want to be there if he doesn’t even want to spend 1 hour with God on Sunday? Hell is defined as separation from God, which is kind of what skipping mass is. I hope that helps a bit. Hell isn’t so much a punishment for missing mass as it is the choice to not be with God, much like missing mass.
I read that the amount we learn to love being with God on earth will limit/determine our ability to enjoy being with God in heaven.
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JimG
Guest
Kind of like the commandments: Do this. Do not do that.
The Church does not, cannot, condemn anyone to hell.
And God is all merciful. I’m sure that we can all offer explanations our actions or lack of actions on judgment day. I’ll have too much explaining of my own to do to be thinking about why someone else did or did not attend Sunday worship. I don’t think I’d want to go with something like, “your rule was entirely unreasonable so I saw no reason to follow it,” though.
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jmcrae
Guest
It seems like you don’t know what the Mass is. It is a time of Christian fellowship, but that’s not all it is.
At Mass, God (Jesus) comes down from Heaven on to the Altar, and then gives Himself to us, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, in Holy Communion. When we fall on to our knees at the moment of the Consecration, it is in recognition of the fact that Jesus is among us in more than just a spiritual way. (Which, as you point out, Jesus can certainly be with us in a spiritual way at any time - but at Mass, His presence is much more than just spiritual. It is still less than His fully corporeal human form, of course, since He is hidden under the appearances of bread and wine, but it is a greater closeness to Him than we can find in any other situation.
This is brilliant - this is it, in a nutshell.
This is actually one of the most common descriptions of the Mass given by the great teachers of our faith, from the Early Fathers (the first followers of the Apostles) on down to modern times.
To be present at Mass is to be present in an unbloody manner at Calvary, when Jesus gave Himself to us on the Cross, and it is also to be present in Heaven in perfect union with the living Lamb of God.
We have a story that we tell to children, to illustrate this point. I’m going from memory, and I’m trying to make it short, but once upon a time, there was a great mother bird - if I recall correctly, she was a Canada goose - and her eggs were lost in a terrible storm. Instead of grieving for her eggs, she decided to go to all the other nests in the region where the storm had hit, and save as many eggs as she could, since many other of the mother birds had been killed or gotten lost in the storm.
She found three eggs alive, and took them to her nest. When they hatched, she found that one was a duck, one was an eagle, and one was a pigeon. She fed them every day until they were big enough to peck for their own food. Then, she realized that she still needed to grieve for her eggs that were lost, so she left the three hatchlings, and told them, “I will return for you when the cold winds come, and it is time to fly south. While I am gone, take care of each other, and learn how to fly. You must practice flying every day. Then, we will go to the great land of the South, where it will be warm and sunny, with lots of good food to eat. Remember that I love you, and that I will return for you.”
At first, all three hatchlings were afraid. But the eagle said, “She has told us that we must learn to fly, so this, we must do.” The duck said, “I am afraid.” The pigeon said, “I don’t understand why we have to do this.” To make a long story short, the eagle was first to learn to fly. The duck was afraid, but with the eagle’s help, he kept trying, and although he could not soar like the eagle, he soon found that he could go quite long distances without tiring. But the pigeon thought the whole thing was a waste of time, and refused to learn, saying, “The mother will return for us and take us to the land of the South where everything is wonderful, so why should I need to learn how to fly? I will just wait for her to come and get me.”
The day came, and the Mother returned. She said to them, “So, did you learn to fly?” The eagle and the duck proudly showed her their skills, but the pigeon said, “I did not. I thought it was a waste of time. When are we going to the land of the South?”
The Mother looked sadly at the pigeon. “Did you not understand? We have to fly to the land of the South - and we must do so quickly, because the cold winds are already blowing, and we will freeze to death if we don’t start today!”
So the Mother, together with the eagle and the duck, soared into the air, wheeled around, shouted “Goodbye!” to the pigeon, and followed the sun in a southward direction.
The pigeon wept bitter tears of rage and disappointment. A few days later when the cold came, a stray dog found his dead, frozen body, and ate him.
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Princess18
Guest
I guess those of us posting here with you can’t really see what your problem is with attending Mass every week. It’s not that we’re trying to talk you in circles but that we just don’t get why you don’t want to. Going to Mass is HUGE part of what being Catholic is … how can you be a happy Catholic and not want to go? That would be kind of like a varsity football player claiming he LOVES football but then whining “why do I have to go and play in EVERY game?” Well, you like football, you want to be on the varsity team, then you go play all the games! Why wouldn’t you want to?Absolutely, sometimes it’s a burden and sometimes it isn’t a burden, no question. If you think that I’m the only person out of 1.1 billion Catholics that feels the way…so be it.
My Church declaring that not attending a few Masses may be worthy of an eternity in hell, seems to contradict the actions of an all loving and compassionate God.
Is not a declaration that one must attend the institution of the Catholic Church to worship every week in order to avoid eternal damnation…a little self serving?
I actually try to make it to Mass weekly and for the odd time that I can’t make it, holding hell over my head seems a little heavy handed, especially as their isn’t any scripture that indicates that the ultimate punishment is awaiting. My Church has decided that hell may be a just punishment.
Try telling a 7 year old that God is just, fair, loving and compassionate, but if you miss Mass for no good reason, God may not let you into heaven and you may condemn yourself to hell?I think even a child would see the contradiction in a just, fair, loving, compassionate and omni benevolent God.
The scriptures that have been listed, they say nothing of missing Mass equaling grave sin, mortal sin or an eternity without God.
At some point, the Church decided that hell was appropriate for this sin…as we all know that it is not written in the Bible.
I’ve found an appropriate answer…there isn’t any direct scriptural basis, it is the tradition and teaching of the Church and yes, the Church made this decision.
Thanks everyone.
catholicherald.com/saunders/99ws/ws990422.htm
As far as a bunch of men making a rule for us to all show up every week being “a little self-serving” … I don’t see that at all. Rules are meant to protect us, and by keeping us at Mass every week it keeps the Holy Eucharist and our faith at the front of our minds. Miss two or three weeks and it’s easy to find yourself slipping. If the only way for them to ensure we show up (for our own good) is to attach a severe punishment, well, good for them for figuring out one that would work. God gave them the ability to make up rules, and they did, not because they thought it would be cool to force us all to do something but because it protects us and keeps God as the focus of our lives.
I’m not going to question your faith or tell you that you’re not Catholic or anything of the sort. I’m only going to suggest that you seriously look inside your heart and figure out why it’s bothering you so much. Why do you feel so forced? Why are you struggling with the rules so hard? Why isn’t this something that you WANT to do? Maybe if you’re able to really think it over and see it as something joyful you want to do instead of a chore you may not have such a hard time with it.
God Bless :console:
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surfinpure
Guest
No, but it has a great deal to do with questioning God.
And I don’t see any necessity for a specific Scripture, unless one is a Protestant who embraces Sola Scriptura. We Catholics know that God has given all authority to teach faith and morals to the Church. Therefore, if the Church teaches it’s a mortal sin, you can be sure this is inspired of God.
Is this really a question about the Church’s teaching authority? That seems to come up at every turn in the conversation…
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onetimeposter
Guest
Not much of a mother if you ask me…abandoning her children and then leaving one of her children to die. That sounds like one mean, heartless and cruel mother.It seems like you don’t know what the Mass is. It is a time of Christian fellowship, but that’s not all it is.
At Mass, God (Jesus) comes down from Heaven on to the Altar, and then gives Himself to us, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, in Holy Communion. When we fall on to our knees at the moment of the Consecration, it is in recognition of the fact that Jesus is among us in more than just a spiritual way. (Which, as you point out, Jesus can certainly be with us in a spiritual way at any time - but at Mass, His presence is much more than just spiritual. It is still less than His fully corporeal human form, of course, since He is hidden under the appearances of bread and wine, but it is a greater closeness to Him than we can find in any other situation.
This is brilliant - this is it, in a nutshell.
This is actually one of the most common descriptions of the Mass given by the great teachers of our faith, from the Early Fathers (the first followers of the Apostles) on down to modern times.
To be present at Mass is to be present in an unbloody manner at Calvary, when Jesus gave Himself to us on the Cross, and it is also to be present in Heaven in perfect union with the living Lamb of God.
We have a story that we tell to children, to illustrate this point. I’m going from memory, and I’m trying to make it short, but once upon a time, there was a great mother bird - if I recall correctly, she was a Canada goose - and her eggs were lost in a terrible storm. Instead of grieving for her eggs, she decided to go to all the other nests in the region where the storm had hit, and save as many eggs as she could, since many other of the mother birds had been killed or gotten lost in the storm.
She found three eggs alive, and took them to her nest. When they hatched, she found that one was a duck, one was an eagle, and one was a pigeon. She fed them every day until they were big enough to peck for their own food. Then, she realized that she still needed to grieve for her eggs that were lost, so she left the three hatchlings, and told them, “I will return for you when the cold winds come, and it is time to fly south. While I am gone, take care of each other, and learn how to fly. You must practice flying every day. Then, we will go to the great land of the South, where it will be warm and sunny, with lots of good food to eat. Remember that I love you, and that I will return for you.”
At first, all three hatchlings were afraid. But the eagle said, “She has told us that we must learn to fly, so this, we must do.” The duck said, “I am afraid.” The pigeon said, “I don’t understand why we have to do this.” To make a long story short, the eagle was first to learn to fly. The duck was afraid, but with the eagle’s help, he kept trying, and although he could not soar like the eagle, he soon found that he could go quite long distances without tiring. But the pigeon thought the whole thing was a waste of time, and refused to learn, saying, “The mother will return for us and take us to the land of the South where everything is wonderful, so why should I need to learn how to fly? I will just wait for her to come and get me.”
The day came, and the Mother returned. She said to them, “So, did you learn to fly?” The eagle and the duck proudly showed her their skills, but the pigeon said, “I did not. I thought it was a waste of time. When are we going to the land of the South?”
The Mother looked sadly at the pigeon. “Did you not understand? We have to fly to the land of the South - and we must do so quickly, because the cold winds are already blowing, and we will freeze to death if we don’t start today!”
So the Mother, together with the eagle and the duck, soared into the air, wheeled around, shouted “Goodbye!” to the pigeon, and followed the sun in a southward direction.
The pigeon wept bitter tears of rage and disappointment. A few days later when the cold came, a stray dog found his dead, frozen body, and ate him.
O
onetimeposter
Guest
O
onetimeposter
Guest
Yeah, it probably is…I can’t help but look at the Church as a massive bureaucracy, the leadership as politicians within an institution and the whole thing appears a little to authoritarian and domineering.
The Church teaches that it is necessary for salvation, that there is no salvation outside of the Church ( for Catholics). Again, the cynical side of me wonders if that claim is also a little self serving. If the Church is necessary for salvation, then people have to come every week, and if the don’t come every week…they commit at worst a mortal sin and at best a grave sin…possibly worthy of eternal damnation.
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surfinpure
Guest
I’m sorry you have come to such views of our beautiful and holy Church. Ours is a faith for which men have given their very lives over the centuries, and still do today. So many of us have found the Church to be an immeasurable gift from God to his beloved sons and daughters. I love the Catholic faith with all my heart, and I live my life (though imperfectly) according to the precepts God has graciously given us through Her. It is not always easy, but it is precisely in the difficulty that we unite ourselves to the Cross of Christ. There can be no union with Him if we refuse the Cross. Indeed, we must die to our very selves in order to live in Him.
My prayer for you is that God may give you the grace to surrender yourself to His Almighty Truth, and accept that it will often disagree with your own human understanding. I pray you will examine the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church without cynicism, but rather with humility and a desire for Truth. I believe no man earnestly and humbly seeking the Light will be left in the dark.
And finally, my favorite quote from St. Augustine:
Credo ut intelligam: I believe in order that I may understand.
In Christ,
Mary
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wanner47
Guest
This is not true, and it’s been reiterated time and time again that the Church cannot definitively say who is and who is not going to Hell. That judgment is reserved for God alone.
The Church can, however, advise as to what is and is not a mortal sin. Deliberately and knowingly missing Mass because you want to effectively give God the finger is a mortal sin because you are, by doing so, deliberately and knowingly rejecting Christ.
If you miss Mass for any other reason than to deliberately reject Christ, and you’re hit by a car the next day, chances are God will read your heart and mind and know that you truly did not **intend **to reject Him.
As to your problems with church authority, the point you’re missing is that the Church is a beauracracy that has lasted, quite successfully despite rampant persecution and corruption for 2,000 years. There have been many sinful Popes, all of whom never taught error when teaching on behalf of the Church. If that’s not proof of the Holy Spirit’s guidance, I don’t know what is.
One last thought, onetimeposter – if you’re not getting anything out of the Mass, it seems like you’re not really understanding what’s going on during Mass. I recommend reading Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth.
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onetimeposter
Guest
I know what’s going on at Mass…I just can’t help but wonder if it’s the truth, as it seems so utterly implausible…
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Aramis
Guest
What you forget is that the man on vacation could have asked for (and probably recieved) indult from his pastor, had he thought ahead…I have trouble believing this following:
A Roman Catholic man attends Mass weekly, takes his obligation seriously and he always brings his family to Mass.
One weekend, he takes his family on a vacation and decides that for the first time in 14 years, they can skip Mass because of the vacation, even though their is a Catholic Church in the city where they are vacationing. He decides that missing Mass is Ok this one time.
This man is well aware of the teachings of the Church regarding missing Mass being a Mortal sin. He has a very active Church life.
The Man gets hit by a car the following Monday and dies instantly. He didn’t go to Mass that weekend for the reason listed above and because he died while in a state of Mortal Sin ( according the rules of the Church) God doesn’t accept him in heaven and he is condemned to Hell for all of eternity.
Where as:
A Catholic man raises a family and never ever ever brings them to Mass and he is very ignorant about the rules of the Church. He doesn’t know many of the teachings of the Church and has no idea that missing Mass is a Mortal sin. He takes his family to Xmas Mass only and he went to confession once when he was a youngster.
This man dies suddenly and because of his ignorance…he gets to go to heaven?
So the learned man is condemned to Hell and the ignorant man gets paradise?
In the first example, there is no question, the man has to go to Hell, because he died with mortal sin on his soul and he died instantly, with no time for confession. ( rules of the Church, people with mortal sins on their souls can’t go to heaven)
The second example, who knows what will happen to him, but he seems to be in a better position having lived a life of ingorance.
Would an all good, all loving God commit a person to hell because they missed a Mass without feeling any contrition or remorse?
Does that not seem very legalistic for an all powerful, all loving and all good God?
Does that not seem more like the actions of a human King, rather than an all loving and good God?
and the ignorant man, he will spend a good amount of time in purgatory, paying for all those sins he did not know were sins, while, should the non-ignorant man repent at his deathbed, it is possible still he might go to heaven, and even if sent to purgatory, his purgation will be based upon his own sins of his lifetime.
And it is the Roman Church, of all the catholic churches, with the strongest sens of mortal sin. Byzantines of various Catholic Churches (Ruthenian, Ukrainian, etc) have a different view of the obligation and how to meet it, and it is far more flexible. It also, however, bears a lot more personal responsibility.
For example, one family did not attend sunday liturgy last week. Why? because they were prepping to host the parish picnic. The call to serve the community met their obligation. No indult was needed; they served the church community in their absense by making ready for the community to meet and share their home. They committed no sin, but, by the same token, they chose to serve the community of the Faithful.
Likewise, I’ve never failed to receive indult for missing liturgy when ill. Call or email the pastor, and the indult is granted. This is, however, an advantage of small parishes.
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wanner47
Guest
That’s where faith comes in. It’s normal to have doubts – even Mother Theresa underwent a “dark night of the soul.” But she never lost her faith despite her doubts.
I read a blog entry by Fr. Rob Johansen today that might help you.
Full blog post here.
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jmcrae
Guest
Why is it “self serving”? What does the bureaucracy gain by “making” people come to Mass? These are men with enough education to become lawyers and business men - yet, they make less than half what they would make in the corporate world, with the same education - why? If not to serve the Lord, then, why?
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onetimeposter
Guest
Your asking, so I’ll respond.Why is it “self serving”? What does the bureaucracy gain by “making” people come to Mass?
Existence and the continuation of the Church, a steady flow of parishioners and income.
These are men with enough education to become lawyers and business men - yet, they make less than half what they would make in the corporate world, with the same education - why? If not to serve the Lord, then, why?
Not money, but perhaps it is about power, institutional power, cultural power…the power to hold salvation over the heads of the laity. The power of the institution. I’m speaking of the leadership, the political players of the Church, the men who set the course and make the decisions…the Priests are at the bottom of the hierarchy.
It seems odd that a Church that needs people to survive, has declared that missing weekly mass may cause a person to lose their salvation promised by Christ.
It is shocking that people believe ( maybe they were told) that missing Mass is a blatant rejection of God!
That is a shockingly strong statement and I hope that that is not an official Church teaching…if it is, then the problem is worse than I thought.You forget that the Catholic Church is a most powerful institution, with a lot of influence and some entire societies ( Quebec Canada until the 1960’s, where upon the populace rejected the Church almost entirely) have the Church as a major power player. In Quebec the Church controlled education, had their fingers in politics and health care…very powerful indeed.
…you asked. The President of the USA does not make a lot of money in relation to his being in charge of the most powerful nation on earth…everything isn’t about money.
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wanner47
Guest
Missing Mass without a good reason (illness, care of children, etc.) IS rejecting God. It’s saying to God, “I have better things to do than worship you.” How is that not a rejection of God?It is shocking that people believe ( maybe they were told) that missing Mass is a blatant rejection of God!
It is an official Church statement that an unrepentant rejection of God will probably send one to Hell.
And “making people go to Mass” contributes to this alleged power… how?
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onetimeposter
Guest
By telling the laity, if you don’t come to weekly mass, you could lose your salvation, as you are committing a mortal or grave sin. The only way for God to forgive you, is if you come to a Catholic Church and confess to a priest.Missing Mass without a good reason (illness, care of children, etc.) IS rejecting God. It’s saying to God, “I have better things to do than worship you.” How is that not a rejection of God?
God knows we have lots going on in our lives and he knows that that does not diminish our love for him. Just like if a parent can’t make it to one of their kids soccer games, it doesn’t mean they are rejecting their child, they just can’t make the soccer game. How could an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God demand his creation gather and worship him every week? That seems like something that an earthly emperor would demand.
It is an official Church statement that an unrepentant rejection of God will probably send one to Hell.
A rejection of God is an unforgivable sin. Missing mass is not an unforgivable sin and missing mass every week for 100 years is not an unforgivable sin.
And “making people go to Mass” contributes to this alleged power… how?
It seems that the people need the Church more for salvation than God…without the Church, their is no salvation. It’s nearly incomprehensible that a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient being would institutionalize salvation.
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wanner47
Guest
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