Missing Mass Q

[Lapey]

Again I ask, where does it say that a Priest or even a Bishop can dispense someone from their Sunday Obligation?

Can. 87 §1. A diocesan bishop, whenever he judges that it contributes to their spiritual good, is able to dispense the faithful from universal and particular disciplinary laws issued for his territory or his subjects by the supreme authority of the Church. He is not able to dispense, however, from procedural or penal laws nor from those whose dispensation is specially reserved to the Apostolic See or some other authority.

§2. If recourse to the Holy See is difficult and, at the same time, there is danger of grave harm in delay, any ordinary is able to dispense from these same laws even if dispensation is reserved to the Holy See, provided that it concerns a dispensation which the Holy See is accustomed to grant under the same circumstances, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 291.

Can. 88 A local ordinary is able to dispense from diocesan laws and, whenever he judges that it contributes to the good of the faithful, from laws issued by a plenary or provincial council or by the conference of bishops.

Can. 89 A pastor and other presbyters or deacons are not able to dispense from universal and particular law unless this power has been expressly granted to them.

In the case of the priest or deacon the local ordinary would have to grant them the authority, as Choy stated.

This is reserved to the bishop.

 

[choy]

yup, the key word there is “granted”
they normally do not have this authority, but its possible for them to receive it

 

[DeepeningFaith]

My apologies and thanks!

 

[choy]

given that fact, how do we know if our pastor is authorized to make such dispensation? i guess we can politely ask

 

[SMHW]

given that fact, how do we know if our pastor is authorized to make such dispensation? i guess we can politely ask

My guess is that if you contacted your diocese you would find out. The permission to dispense with Mass attendance is probably one of the standard permissions/faculties granted to a pastor/administrator when he is appointed.

 

[choy]

My guess is that if you contacted your diocese you would find out. The permission to dispense with Mass attendance is probably one of the standard permissions/faculties granted to a pastor/administrator when he is appointed.

i have the same feeling as well. i don’t think the Bishop will concern himself with hundreds or even thousands of cases of people asking for dispensation unless its a large group or area or people involved.

 

[DeepeningFaith]

i have the same feeling as well. i don’t think the Bishop will concern himself with hundreds or even thousands of cases of people asking for dispensation unless its a large group or area or people involved.

Do you really think that there are that many real reasons for not fulfilling one’s Sunday Obligation? I think that if the Bishop reserved it to him or to him and one person in the Chancery, we’d have a lot less people looking to be dispensed.

 

[choy]

Do you really think that there are that many real reasons for not fulfilling one’s Sunday Obligation? I think that if the Bishop reserved it to him or to him and one person in the Chancery, we’d have a lot less people looking to be dispensed.

either that or people will just take it to themselves to make stuff up on why they should be dispensed. or just miss mass altogether, no questions asked. come back next Sunday and still receive Communion

i believe it would better serve to have priests handle such cases because they are accessible and because in a way thats what they are for, to answer questions on the faith of the people in their parish. but yes, its up to the bishop to judge whats best for his diocese

 

[DeepeningFaith]

either that or people will just take it to themselves to make stuff up on why they should be dispensed. or just miss mass altogether, no questions asked. come back next Sunday and still receive Communion

i believe it would better serve to have priests handle such cases because they are accessible and because in a way thats what they are for, to answer questions on the faith of the people in their parish. but yes, its up to the bishop to judge whats best for his diocese

I see your point. However I think this is already happening since very few people even know that you are supposed to receive this dispensation prior to skipping Mass. Most people think nothing of it if something comes up, such as family in town, that they can skip Mass and receive the next week.

To all Priest readers: Please CATHECIZE!!! You have a captive audience! Use it for more than just telling personal stories!

 

[choy]

I see your point. However I think this is already happening since very few people even know that you are supposed to receive this dispensation prior to skipping Mass. Most people think nothing of it if something comes up, such as family in town, that they can skip Mass and receive the next week.

To all Priest readers: Please CATHECIZE!!! You have a captive audience! Use it for more than just telling personal stories!

i sadly agree. many who are lukewarm in the faith wouldn’t care at all
but those who are devout would best ask the priest

there are automatic dispensations though. like if you are sick or if you are caring for someone who is sick. no questions asked, you are dispensed

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I think a situation as described by the OP simply requires a little common sense. We need to keep in mind that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Mk 2:27). The occasional camping trip or vacation that takes people far away from Mass is not the same as someone who is just too lazy to attend Mass. It is good for the body and soul to have stress free time.
Now, for those who require canon law, please note Canon 1245:
*Without prejudice to the right of diocesan bishops mentioned in can. 87, for a just cause and according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop, a pastor can grant in individual cases a dispensation from the obligation of observing a feast day or a day of penance or can grant a commutation of the obligation into other pious works. *

Canon 1247 lists Sundays as a feast day. Thus the pastor does indeed have the authority to either dispense or commute the obligation.

Now, go in peace to camp and catch a big fish!

 

[DeepeningFaith]

I think a situation as described by the OP simply requires a little common sense. We need to keep in mind that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Mk 2:27). The occasional camping trip or vacation that takes people far away from Mass is not the same as someone who is just too lazy to attend Mass. It is good for the body and soul to have stress free time.
Now, for those who require canon law, please note Canon 1245:
Without prejudice to the right of diocesan bishops mentioned in can. 87, for a just cause and according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop, a pastor can grant in individual cases a dispensation from the obligation of observing a feast day or a day of penance or can grant a commutation of the obligation into other pious works.

Canon 1247 lists Sundays as a feast day. Thus the pastor does indeed have the authority to either dispense or commute the obligation.

Now, go in peace to camp and catch a big fish!

LOL! Now Father, doesn’t it have to be one’s own Pastor? And “according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop” that does not entitle Pastors to give such a dispensation without the actual permission of the Bishop to do so. But obviously, the OP could go talk to his Pastor and see if he feels the same way as you do.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

LOL! Now Father, doesn’t it have to be one’s own Pastor?

Yes.

And “according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop” that does not entitle Pastors to give such a dispensation without the actual permission of the Bishop to do so. But obviously, the OP could go talk to his Pastor and see if he feels the same way as you do.

No, the pastor is given the authority by the canon to dispense from Sunday obligations. However, the bishop may issue guidelines and restrictions on the matter that would be binding. For example, a bishop could determine what a “just cause” is and thereby limit how its applied by pastors.

 

[choy]

Yes.

No, the pastor is given the authority by the canon to dispense from Sunday obligations. However, the bishop may issue guidelines and restrictions on the matter that would be binding. For example, a bishop could determine what a “just cause” is and thereby limit how its applied by pastors.

like one camping trip per summer, and no dispensation for kids soccer or baseball games?

 

[Lapey]

Canon 1247 lists Sundays as a feast day. Thus the pastor does indeed have the authority to either dispense or commute the obligation.

Now, go in peace to camp and catch a big fish!

Can. 1246 §1. Sunday, on which by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated, must be observed in the universal Church as the primordial holy day of obligation. The following days must also be observed: the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Body and Blood of Christ, Holy Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, Saint Joseph, Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and All Saints.
§2. With the prior approval of the Apostolic See, however, the conference of bishops can suppress some of the holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday.
Can. 1247 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass.
Moreover, they are to abstain from those works and aVairs which hinder the worship to be rendered to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s day, or the suitable relaxation of mind and body.
Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
§2. If participation in the eucharistic celebration becomes impossible because of the absence of a sacred minister or for another grave cause, it is strongly recommended that the faithful take part in a liturgy of the word if such a liturgy is celebrated in a parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop or that they devote themselves to prayer for a suitable time alone, as a family, or, as the occasion permits, in groups of families.

With all due respect Father, I don’t see where Sunday observance is called a feast day. 1247 reads, “…Sundays and other holy days…” notice “and” not “or”.

At the risk of appearing condescending, does the commandment read…keep holy the Sabbath, unless you want to take a vacation, then your pastor can dispense with the obligation. I’m starting to feel queasy with the route this conversation is going, especially with Father saying its ok. I understand there are reasons to skip mass, but I do not believe vacation camping is one; especially since you can schedule and plan to be able to be at mass somewhere.

Part of our problem as a Church is we have forgotten what sin is. I have been told in the confessional too many time, “oh, that’s not a sin don’t worry about that.” I had a priest tell me that missing mass wasn’t a “real” mortal sin and another tell my diaconate class that masturbation wasn’t a sin; well what is the truth. Is it a requirement of a Catholic of the Latin Rite to observe the Sunday obligation or isn’t it? It cannot be both.

I respectfully disagree with the good Father, I do not believe the canon or the typical bishop gives the authority to a pastor for a dispensation to go on a vacation, sorry. I know what took place in this diocese for Hurricane Gustav, it was our bishop’s call and for compelling reason.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

With all due respect Father, I don’t see where Sunday observance is called a feast day. 1247 reads, “…Sundays and other holy days…” notice “and” not “or”.

I suggest you read the heading for those canons. Those canons are preceeded by the heading: “FEAST DAYS.” Sunday is the first one listed. The heading Feast Days is used and then the indivdual canon counts the days of obligation.
When we get to the canon on dispensation it reads, “dispensation from the obligation of observing a feast day…” Notice the same words are being used.

At the risk of appearing condescending, does the commandment read…keep holy the Sabbath, unless you want to take a vacation, then your pastor can dispense with the obligation. I’m starting to feel queasy with the route this conversation is going, especially with Father saying its ok.

Are you a Protestant? Do you know better than the Church? I suggest a little humility and docility to what the Church actually says instead of standing firm in what you’d like it to say,

My interpretation comes directly from the Canon Law Society of America’s commentary on those canons. the CLSA is the same group that the Vatican uses for its English translation of Canon Law.
My interpretation also comes from actually having taken courses in canon law and using it on a daily basis.
Not to mention that as priests we’re told by seminaries and bishops. So unless you are somehow superior in canon law studies to the CLSA, seminaries, Bishops, and priests I suggest you stop making up your own rules.

I understand there are reasons to skip mass, but I do not believe vacation camping is one; especially since you can schedule and plan to be able to be at mass somewhere.

That’s great, but unfortunately for you, that’s not your call to make. Its first and foremost the Bishop’s and then after him the local pastor.

Part of our problem as a Church is we have forgotten what sin is.

Wow, so Pope John Paul II (who promulgated the code) forgot what sin in? How nice of you to find his errors.

I respectfully disagree with the good Father, I do not believe the canon or the typical bishop gives the authority to a pastor for a dispensation to go on a vacation, sorry. I know what took place in this diocese for Hurricane Gustav, it was our bishop’s call and for compelling reason.

You are free to disagree but you’re still wrong. The interpretation of a “just cause” is left of to the Bishop and then the pastor. Its not your call to make.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I suggest you read the heading for those canons. Those canons are preceeded by the heading: “FEAST DAYS.” Sunday is the first one listed. The heading Feast Days is used and then the indivdual canon counts the days of obligation.
When we get to the canon on dispensation it reads, “dispensation from the obligation of observing a feast day…” Notice the same words are being used.

Are you a Protestant? Do you know better than the Church? I suggest a little humility and docility to what the Church actually says instead of standing firm in what you’d like it to say,

My interpretation comes directly from the Canon Law Society of America’s commentary on those canons. the CLSA is the same group that the Vatican uses for its English translation of Canon Law.
My interpretation also comes from actually having taken courses in canon law and using it on a daily basis.
Not to mention that as priests we’re told by seminaries and bishops. So unless you are somehow superior in canon law studies to the CLSA, seminaries, Bishops, and priests I suggest you stop making up your own rules.

That’s great, but unfortunately for you, that’s not your call to make. Its first and foremost the Bishop’s and then after him the local pastor.

Wow, so Pope John Paul II (who promulgated the code) forgot what sin in? How nice of you to find his errors.

You are free to disagree but you’re still wrong. The interpretation of a “just cause” is left of to the Bishop and then the pastor. Its not your call to make.

:tiphat::clapping: Thank you Father, I enjoyed that.

FSC

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Thank you Father, I enjoyed that.

This thread reminds me of a friend of mine who is a police officer. He always says how funny it is that everyone thinks they’re a lawyer and know the law up until they get the ticket…

 

[Lapey]

I suggest you read the heading for those canons. Those canons are preceeded by the heading: “FEAST DAYS.” Sunday is the first one listed. The heading Feast Days is used and then the indivdual canon counts the days of obligation.
When we get to the canon on dispensation it reads, “dispensation from the obligation of observing a feast day…” Notice the same words are being used.

Are you a Protestant? Do you know better than the Church? I suggest a little humility and docility to what the Church actually says instead of standing firm in what you’d like it to say,

My interpretation comes directly from the Canon Law Society of America’s commentary on those canons. the CLSA is the same group that the Vatican uses for its English translation of Canon Law.
My interpretation also comes from actually having taken courses in canon law and using it on a daily basis.
Not to mention that as priests we’re told by seminaries and bishops. So unless you are somehow superior in canon law studies to the CLSA, seminaries, Bishops, and priests I suggest you stop making up your own rules.

That’s great, but unfortunately for you, that’s not your call to make. Its first and foremost the Bishop’s and then after him the local pastor.

Wow, so Pope John Paul II (who promulgated the code) forgot what sin in? How nice of you to find his errors.

You are free to disagree but you’re still wrong. The interpretation of a “just cause” is left of to the Bishop and then the pastor. Its not your call to make.

Well, I guess I deserved that. No matter how arogant my responce eappeared, it was stated from my experiences and training in canon law for three semesters of formation. I am wrong and you Father have put me in my place with such charity.

Good day.

 

[OraLabora]

God doesn’t take a vacation. So what makes a person think they are “entitled” to a vacation?

I am on vacation this week, and feel no guilt about it. And interestingly enough, I was on a long bike ride yesterday and I stopped at a local spring to fill my water bottles, when a small car with 4 nuns pulled up. I said hi and asked what community they were from as I didn’t recognize their habits (yes they were in proper habits). They were from the Marcelline order in Montreal and were filling a big jug of water. We chatted for a bit and learned that they run a private school in Westmount. The sister chatting to me mentioned that they were on vacation.

So if even nuns, traditional enough to still wear the habit, can take a vacation, so can I.

Moreover it’s the law in this country that employers grant vacation time.