Missing Mass

[b_ulmen]

The distrust in the Magisterium comes, sadly, from the reformation and has had a huge impact on Christianity, even Catholics, that the “rules and regs” of the Church are merely man made and/or mandated. Before the reformation this wasn’t the case. People knew and accepted that Christ had established his Church on the Apostles, on men, not on a book. By transferring the teaching authority from men, which is how Christ set it up, to a book, it threw open the floodgates for private interpretation for every verse, making every man his own Magisterium.

thanks, Della, this adds some perspective for me. Is this thought explored more indepth by anyone? I’d be interested in reading.

 

[Della]

thanks, Della, this adds some perspective for me. Is this thought explored more indepth by anyone? I’d be interested in reading.

I’m so glad I was of some help. I think the best way to put the Bible’s importance, as well as the Church’s importance, into perspective is to read: Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church. It was written a while ago as a series of lectures before both Catholic and Protestant audience, so it’s not polemical, but helpful. I found it an excellent read, easy to understand. You can also find it online for free by Googling the title.

Catholic Answers also has articles on the topic.

 

[Sheeniac]

thanks, Della, this adds some perspective for me. Is this thought explored more indepth by anyone? I’d be interested in reading.

CUF.org has a wonderful collection of in-depth ‘Faith Facts’. This deals directly with your concern and opens directly to the PDF. I recommend spending some time reviewing the topics of interest. The discussions are rooted in the Bible, the Catechism, encyclicals, Church documents, etc.

I can’t recommend that website enough for it’s orthodox commitment to Truth.

 

[Sheeniac]

And here’s the link:

cuf.org/FileDownloads/missingmassmortalsin.pdf

 

[b_ulmen]

The distrust in the Magisterium comes, sadly, from the reformation and has had a huge impact on Christianity, even Catholics, that the “rules and regs” of the Church are merely man made and/or mandated.

not sure I’m influenced by the reformation, but my main point was that man-made is open to corruption, God-given aint (so with man-made “trust but verify” shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand).

Before the reformation this wasn’t the case. People knew and accepted that Christ had established his Church on the Apostles, on men, not on a book. By transferring the teaching authority from men, which is how Christ set it up, to a book, it threw open the floodgates for private interpretation for every verse, making every man his own Magisterium…

it seems as though you are saying that having the Bible available for all to read has been detrimental to the Church; that we would be better off letting the Priests/Deacons read and interpret for us. Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[b_ulmen]

And here’s the link:

cuf.org/FileDownloads/missingmassmortalsin.pdf

very good summation/reference material! thanks!

 

[Della]

not sure I’m influenced by the reformation, but my main point was that man-made is open to corruption, God-given aint (so with man-made “trust but verify” shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand).

I’m sorry, I didin’t mean you personally were influenced by the reformation, but generally.

Who is to verify and how? You? Me? And who gave us that authority? Since Christ gave the authority to the Apostles, and so to their successors, to teach, preach and baptize in his name–a promise that is verified by the power of the Holy Spirit, we need not fear that any teaching of the Church is merely man-made.

it seems as though you are saying that having the Bible available for all to read has been detrimental to the Church; that we would be better off letting the Priests/Deacons read and interpret for us. Or am I misunderstanding?

Huh? Yes, you are not only misunderstanding you’re adding things to my words that aren’t there. Please don’t do that. I write what I mean–period.

I wrote nothing about our priests/deacons being the only ones who can/should interpret Scripture for us. I wrote that that is the duty and authority of the Magisterium, which is, as I also wrote, all the bishops of the world in union with the pope. Individual bishops, priests and deacons do not have the authority to interpret Scripture apart from Sacred Tradition, which is also under the authority of the Magisterium.

Anyone may read the Scriptures devotionally, but intrepreting it doctrinally is not for individuals to do all on their own. Scripture actually forbids doing so:

2Pt. 1[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Those men were God’s prophets in the OT and the Apostles in the NT.

 

[b_ulmen]

Huh? Yes, you are not only misunderstanding you’re adding things to my words that aren’t there. Please don’t do that. I write what I mean–period.

thats why I seek clarification.

I wrote nothing about our priests/deacons being the only ones who can/should interpret Scripture for us. I wrote that that is the duty and authority of the Magisterium, which is, as I also wrote, all the bishops of the world in union with the pope. Individual bishops, priests and deacons do not have the authority to interpret Scripture apart from Sacred Tradition, which is also under the authority of the Magisterium.

my error, I lumped them all together.

Anyone may read the Scriptures devotionally, but intrepreting it doctrinally is not for individuals to do all on their own. Scripture actually forbids doing so:

2Pt. 1[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

thanks for the clarification. But now I wonder why it is that the Holy Spirit only moves the Magisterium. Why would the door be closed to us as we read? ((side question, is “prophecy of scripture” meaning foretelling or explanation of?)) We may have slide off the main topic, but its good for me fully understand.

 

[Della]

thanks for the clarification. But now I wonder why it is that the Holy Spirit only moves the Magisterium. Why would the door be closed to us as we read? ((side question, is “prophecy of scripture” meaning foretelling or explanation of?)) We may have slide off the main topic, but its good for me fully understand.

It depends on what you mean by the Holy Spirit moving people. I tried to be quite specific but again you expanded into areas not under discussion–such as private devotional reading of the Bible. Only in matters of faith and morals–that is doctrine and dogma does the Magisterium have the charism of infallibility. The charism very limited in scope and does not mean no one else can have any good insights into God’s word. If that were so the writings of the saints and theologians would have no benefit for us, nor would we be able to read the Bible at all, which is clearly not the case.

As to the topic of the thread–missing Mass, we’re answered that quite fully, I think. We either obey, believing that Jesus knew what he was doing when he established his Church to determine such things, or we don’t. This is where faith comes in. In reality, we are trusting Jesus–what he did and what he taught because the Apostles handed his words and mission down to us, in both oral teaching/preaching and in the writings of the NT. That is the essence of Catholic faith and practice.

Now, I think the topic has been exhausted. So, I’m done discussing it. All the best to you.