Missing Men and the Biolgical Clock

[Xantippe]

Most of the men I know have done just that. They graduate high school at 17-19, get a trade or factory job, raise a family. Or they join the military after high school and raise a family. These aren’t just relatives either. I really think that it is either a regional thing in the US that people believe this can’t be done or something. Honestly I have seen far fewer men sitting around playing video games without a job that are NOT college graduates than the ones who have gone off to college. The men with a trade are never out of work, have no debts to repay for a college degree that they aren’t using, and are home owners. Many of these trades are very well paying jobs and soon there won’t be enough workers to fill them all. My husband and I worked on farms before he joined the Army. when he retires from the military most likely he will work as a carpenter. My oldest son is currently in college. He is an Air Force cadet. My second son is already out of school and is a welder. He’s making more money already than his older brother will as a 2nd LT when he finishes school. He has his own apartment and is living in a different state (where we used to live). The next two will be finishing up with high school next year. One (the girl) is going to college. The boy has a trade lined up he is wanting. He even has an apprenticeship lined up. He has worked off and on for the man in the past. The next boy decided so far (he has a few more years of school still) that he plans to join the marines and then go to college later on. The other kids have a long time to go still, but I don’t have any doubts that they will all decide to take whatever path leads to success for them. All children need to be taught some sort of trade as at least a back up. Not only do they learn how to work, they will always have a well paying job if (when?) their degree doesn’t pan out. My second son is making quite a bit more than many with 4 year degrees because they end up working retail jobs and have tons of loans to repay. They have little to no prospects of ever actually using the degree they studied for.

Part of the problem I see an awful lot is people seem to measure success in terms of how much money a person makes without ever needing to break a sweat. No one wants these blue collar jobs because they have an elitist idea of them not being worth their time, too hard, and/or poor paying. These jobs sit empty waiting for someone.** There are always openings, and if someone can pass a drug test and not be in and out of jail, they have work for life. **The son that is a welder is thinking of going to college, but he has the opportunity to pay his way with no loans. He makes enough money and his employer does tuition reimbursement. Once out of college, he can continue with his employer but be making more as a supervisor. He will still do the job he loves though. Why more people don’t take these jobs starting out is beyond me. Maybe it’s harder to do in some regions, but we’ve lived a lot of places and have met men and women in all of them that have done just fine actually working instead of complaining they can’t get a job “in their field.” These people may never make $100,000 a year (some do!) but they are all raising families and self supporting.

Not exactly “for life”–there are career-ending injuries.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

bitterhope makes lots of great points.

Honestly I have seen far fewer men sitting around playing video games without a job that are NOT college graduates than the ones who have gone off to college.

This is true. People who go to college often do so either because it’s a way of putting off actually having to go out and work hard, or because they’ve bought into the idea that they will get a diploma and someone will then hand them a high-paying job. It doesn’t always work out like that, especially if you didn’t major in STEM and/or your college wasn’t Yale.

No one wants these blue collar jobs because they have an elitist idea of them not being worth their time, too hard, and/or poor paying. These jobs sit empty waiting for someone.

Well, to be fair, if your dad and your whole family worked in white-collar jobs, you probably have only the most rudimentary idea of how you would even begin to go about being a welder or a plumber or a trucker, etc.

if someone can pass a drug test and not be in and out of jail

These two things are where a LOT of the poverty comes from for able-bodied (not elderly or disabled) adults.

Why more people don’t take these jobs starting out is beyond me. Maybe it’s harder to do in some regions

I’ve had friends and family who went the trade route, and in some areas, especially major cities, the unions or other barriers can make it hard for people to get a start in the trade. If you are related to somebody who’s already in, like your dad or your uncle was a plumber or welder or whatever, then no problem. If not, then sometimes you have trouble. In certain trades, like construction-related, there is also a lot of layoff uncertainty, which you can probably handle if you have a spouse working steadily and you’re prepared to have a ton of work for a time and then be out of work for some extended period, but not everybody can handle that.

I also had one relative who graduated from college (back in the days when it didn’t involve humongous loans), decided to become a plumber rather than go into his major field, and soon quit because the work assignments were putting employees in grave danger and he could see that. He ended up working in a steel mill, where he still works today. There was one opening and he got it over other applicants because he was the only one with a degree. I’m still shaking my head over that one, but he has done a pretty good job supporting wife and kids on it.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve had friends and family who went the trade route, and in some areas, especially major cities, the unions or other barriers can make it hard for people to get a start in the trade. If you are related to somebody who’s already in, like your dad or your uncle was a plumber or welder or whatever, then no problem. If not, then sometimes you have trouble.** In certain trades, like construction-related, there is also a lot of layoff uncertainty, which you can probably handle if you have a spouse working steadily and you’re prepared to have a ton of work for a time and then be out of work for some extended period, but not everybody can handle that. **

I also had one relative who graduated from college (back in the days when it didn’t involve humongous loans), decided to become a plumber rather than go into his major field, and soon quit because the work assignments were putting employees in grave danger and he could see that. He ended up working in a steel mill, where he still works today. There was one opening and he got it over other applicants because he was the only one with a degree. I’m still shaking my head over that one, but he has done a pretty good job supporting wife and kids on it.

Right. I was just looking at a piece about the 2008 recession.

“One of the distinctive features of the Great Recession has been the enormous number of people who have been out of work for months on end. Almost 45 percent of today’s unemployed workers have been without a job for at least 27 weeks.”

“The first two years of the downturn were disproportionately blue collar. In 2008 and 2009, the construction industry shed 25 percent of its jobs, and manufacturing lost 16 percent.”

“Over all, though, the downturn has still exacted a much harsher toll on the less educated. The unemployment rate for college graduates is still just 4.5 percent, and the gap between their pay and everyone else’s is larger than it has ever been.”

nytimes.com/2010/08/11/business/economy/11leonhardt.html

 

[bitterhope]

Not exactly “for life”–there are career-ending injuries.

And there are tons of other reasons a person may become disabled or unable to work. Lots of bankers have heart attacks in their 40s. That is for any type of job. Life throws curves all the time. Most people regardless of type of job don’t continue working until they are elderly. Yes it happens but it isn’t the usual way it’s done in modern day US.

 

[Naskor]

I recall firmly having to take a required “Sociology, Family, & Society” course for the general education requirement at my university. Even then, the class was skewed about 85%female and 15%male.

This precise topic came up and the majority of young women in the course both proudly and firmly stated that they must first: graduate university, obtain either a Master’s degree or PhD, be secure in a job, develop a financial portfolio, home and car…before even entertaining the idea of marriage.

This was true of my college experience as well, even though I went to a university with abnormally large Catholic population. Guess we are not an exception.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And there are tons of other reasons a person may become disabled or unable to work. Lots of bankers have heart attacks in their 40s. That is for any type of job. Life throws curves all the time. Most people regardless of type of job don’t continue working until they are elderly. Yes it happens but it isn’t the usual way it’s done in modern day US.

While every profession is prone to illness and injury, a banker who has a heart attack will likely spend a little time in the hospital, have his doc put him on a diet and medication plan, do a bypass operation if necessary, and back to the office within a few months. The head of my company sustained a serious freak accident injury a couple years back and he was right back to his head-of-company duties within a few months.

On the other hand, when you work a trade, you have to use your body. My acquaintance who fell off a roof while working construction is now in a wheelchair for life. A banker or a lawyer in a wheelchair could have probably kept his job; some employers would even be glad to have him because it makes them look like a kind, ethical, ADA-friendly employer. But a construction worker in a wheelchair is done. I could tell various other stories of less serious injuries that were still bad enough to put a guy out of work long term. Injury risk is a risk you take when you work any physical job, even a physical job as a professional. I changed careers partly because my last career, which I had a MS in, required a lot of physical lab work and my back kept going out. My current career is a desk/ couch surfing gig.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Many priests are saying different. They are noticing a trend where it is the MEN who don’t want marriage anymore: blog.adw.org/2015/10/men-are-more-disinclined-to-marry-than-ever-a-reflection-on-a-serious-problem/

The post and the discussion comments are interesting. Thanks for sharing that. So what is happening is a “perfect storm” to make marriage and family undesirable. There are issues for men, issues for women, both of these exacerbated by wider social and economic changes and crises. Since there are couples that are opperating okay within that storm, what works? We can’t just say “follow what the church teaches” because some of the healthiest marriages I know are couple who broke the rules: sex before marriage, babies before marriage. The other is that there are couples that are together for years, now decades for some, but nothing on paper. Why? Why are they still eschewing marriage?

 

[Xantippe]

While every profession is prone to illness and injury, a banker who has a heart attack will likely spend a little time in the hospital, have his doc put him on a diet and medication plan, do a bypass operation if necessary, and back to the office within a few months. The head of my company sustained a serious freak accident injury a couple years back and he was right back to his head-of-company duties within a few months.

On the other hand, when you work a trade, you have to use your body. My acquaintance who fell off a roof while working construction is now in a wheelchair for life. A banker or a lawyer in a wheelchair could have probably kept his job; some employers would even be glad to have him because it makes them look like a kind, ethical, ADA-friendly employer. But a construction worker in a wheelchair is done. I could tell various other stories of less serious injuries that were still bad enough to put a guy out of work long term. Injury risk is a risk you take when you work any physical job, even a physical job as a professional. I changed careers partly because my last career, which I had a MS in, required a lot of physical lab work and my back kept going out. My current career is a desk/ couch surfing gig.

Yeah.

My dad had a very physical job into his mid-30s (it was a timber industry job involving a lot of lifting and carrying of heavy weights). At some point, he realized that he needed to get out of the woods, and he did, transitioning to lighter physical work (fortunately he had the academic background that gave him a number of different options).

Also, now that my husband and I are in our 40s, I have a new appreciation for how much more injury prone one is from around 40 on, and how much more slowly it takes to heal.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Since there are couples that are opperating okay within that storm, what works? We can’t just say “follow what the church teaches” because some of the healthiest marriages I know are couple who broke the rules: sex before marriage, babies before marriage.

“Breaking the rules” doesn’t mean you’ll be miserable or guilty for life. This isn’t “Kristin Lavransdatter”. Marriages, or other couple partnerships, are healthy when the people in them are both mature, live in a responsible manner, know what they want, and what they want is to be with the other person in a mutually supportive pair. Simple as that.

The other is that there are couples that are together for years, now decades for some, but nothing on paper. Why? Why are they still eschewing marriage?

I’m sure there are as many individual answers to this as there are couples. I don’t think you can point to one thing or one trend, except perhaps a general feeling nowadays of “we don’t need no piece of paper from the City Hall, keepin’ us tied and true” as Joni Mitchell sang, in that nobody is going to get shunned or punished for living as an unmarried couple.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

The other is that there are couples that are together for years, now decades for some, but nothing on paper. Why? Why are they still eschewing marriage?

Well, in some respects marriage changes “I choose to” to “I’m obligated to”. I still “choose to” but is it really a real choice? Also, it’s amazing what an unmarried couple can do. Joint accounts/credit and visitation at various places that were traditionally taught as family and spouses.
Even more amazingly, when she was my gf I was able to call a few places she did business with and help out with a few things.

It’s almost like the only big unique features all revolve around potential children and passing on assets in case either of us expire.

 

[Naskor]

The post and the discussion comments are interesting. Thanks for sharing that. So what is happening is a “perfect storm” to make marriage and family undesirable. There are issues for men, issues for women, both of these exacerbated by wider social and economic changes and crises. Since there are couples that are opperating okay within that storm, what works? We can’t just say “follow what the church teaches” because some of the healthiest marriages I know are couple who broke the rules: sex before marriage, babies before marriage. The other is that there are couples that are together for years, now decades for some, but nothing on paper. Why? Why are they still eschewing marriage?

Now that you’ve brought it up this is true for my community as well. Everyone of my friends that broke the rules is happily married, but everyone still trying the Church route is single and not happy about it.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

A single woman reflects on the phenomenon of “missing men,” and offers some advice.

In public policy debates, it’s often assumed that women freeze their eggs in order to put off childbearing during the prime time of their careers. According to new research, however, more and more educated and successful women are choosing to freeze their eggs because they cannot find a man they want to marry. Many men are “missing” from higher education, work, and church – and are just not marriageable.
. . .
It is easy to become disheartened – even to despair – about the apparent lack of marriageable men in our culture. I’ve met many beautiful and intelligent single women who are worried they will never get married or they will get married too late to have children. They are willing to leave their careers behind in order to be a wife and mother, yet they simply cannot find the right man.

Continued here:
thecatholicthing.org/2017/08/25/missing-men-and-the-ticking-biological-clock/

Well, I have been trying to date for the exclusive reason of finding a wife since I was 27. I do not buy into that there is a lack of good men to marry. There are plenty. They are hard to find. There are plenty of great women out there. I have dated a lot of them over the last few years up until I went exclusive with my girlfriend 8 months ago. They are out there. I think other stuff comes into play. Really high standards… gonna take you awhile to find someone that meets those standards. Not that there is anything wrong with high standards. Its not wise to date a man who has a job meant for a college kid and has no ambition to succeed and does not practice their faith and is immature “Baby boy” (A guy who refuses to grow up and be a man) But just because a lot of men do not meet any given woman’s standards does not mean that there is a lack of good men. And that goes for men looking for good women too. Not all of us are self entitled momma’s boys who do not want to get married. Catholic dating sites… plenty of weirdos and “Baby Boys” for sure but also many great men looking for a good woman.

I use to say there was a lack of good women. Then I realized “No… there are plenty of good women who are marriage material. Not all of them, not even most of them, are going to give me a chance though” That is just the honest truth. It did not mean I lack self esteem. It means I realized I needed to be prepared to meet a lot of heartbreak and rejection until I found one willing to give me a chance. And that goes for anyone.

 

[ATraveller]

Now that you’ve brought it up this is true for my community as well. Everyone of my friends that broke the rules is happily married, but everyone still trying the Church route is single and not happy about it.

Mine is a bit different in that those who broke the rules, a few are happily married but most are still single. The ones who are following the Church route, some are happily married but many of the single ones are content and hopeful.
I think it’s important to mention people take the Church route because they love God more than the desires of their own flesh. Obeying God even if it’s tough is the Christian thing to do. The unfortunate thing is those who stray from the path cause others to stumble. I know Christians who have been frustrated and complained of wanting to give up on the Church route. I pray for them to continue to persevere and for them to know any pain they may feel isn’t going to waste. By giving in, it also continues this vicious cycle. Why would you want to cause others to stumble? Obvious but it’s always good to reiterate it from time to time given how this is a post-Christian age.

I wonder how Mormons are bucking this trend. They’re average marriage age hasn’t followed with the rest of the West.

And speaking of the Church route, if it were a competition, Mormons would beat all other Christians by a long shot.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I wonder how Mormons are bucking this trend. They’re average marriage age hasn’t followed with the rest of the West.

Mormons pretty much have their young people socializing with other Mormons, and only other Mormons, from their teens forward. They offer a lot of social activities for young people and actively discourage them from looking outside of the church for anything. Those who do get involved with a lot of non-Mormon friends are in danger of being given a talking-to or shunned. Early marriages - to other Mormon young people, of course - are strongly encouraged.

All I can say about that system is that if the Catholic church was pushing something similar, I probably would have either left it long ago, or had a lot more trouble with it than I do. I’m looking for a faith where I can worship Jesus, not one that’s going to micromanage my social life and insist on being the center of it.

 

[ATraveller]

Mormons pretty much have their young people socializing with other Mormons, and only other Mormons, from their teens forward. They offer a lot of social activities for young people and actively discourage them from looking outside of the church for anything. Those who do get involved with a lot of non-Mormon friends are in danger of being given a talking-to or shunned. Early marriages - to other Mormon young people, of course - are strongly encouraged.

All I can say about that system is that if the Catholic church was pushing something similar, I probably would have either left it long ago, or had a lot more trouble with it than I do. I’m looking for a faith where I can worship Jesus, not one that’s going to micromanage my social life and insist on being the center of it.

Really? I’m friends with a few Mormons but we don’t talk about religion except for the general things if it ever comes up so this is new to me (for the bolded portion).
And relating to some of the previous posts, I know many Mormons both men and women are encouraged to attend university so the educated women thing might not be an issue for them.
It would seem Mormons have implemented Rod Dreher’s Benedict Option but much more extreme (for the underlined portion).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It may be one of these “not the case for all Mormons” situations, but some years back, one of the local papers, I believe in DC, did a long story on Mormon twentysomethings, especially women, who did not want to follow along with the expected program. This is what was described.

I have also read articles by non-Mormon people who grew up in the SLC area and their experience was that in high school, their Mormon friends started doing a lot more activities with other Mormons and much less with them. I believe the main person whose article I read was a Baptist, which wouldn’t surprise me as there are quite a few Baptists in that area.

Finally, my husband and I had a friend who worked with us when all three of us were in our early 20s. He got laid off and took a new job in SLC area. We visited him out there. He had a good job, nice car, etc. but was having a very difficult time finding women to date because apparently if you were not a Mormon, most of them were not interested, and he did not wish to become a Mormon. After about 8 or 10 years of this, he moved to the PacNW and then got married.

I have known and worked with several very happily married professional Mormons, so I don’t think they’re terrible or anything, but I have no reason to doubt what I’ve heard and read over and over. They want you to be a Mormon, and if you’re not going to join up, then they will be nice but they don’t really want to have a close relationship with you.

Edited to add, if the Mormons attend university in Utah, or any school with a big percentage of Mormons, they just continue on with their activities with the other Mormon women. A lot of the women do finish college and even go on missions themselves now, but they get married by about their mid-20s. I worked with a guy who was about 26 and a new law school graduate and both he and his wife (who also had a degree) had already finished school, each done a mission, and had 2 kids.

 

[Xantippe]

It may be one of these “not the case for all Mormons” situations, but some years back, one of the local papers, I believe in DC, did a long story on Mormon twentysomethings, especially women, who did not want to follow along with the expected program. This is what was described.

I have also read articles by non-Mormon people who grew up in the SLC area and their experience was that in high school, their Mormon friends started doing a lot more activities with other Mormons and much less with them. I believe the main person whose article I read was a Baptist, which wouldn’t surprise me as there are quite a few Baptists in that area.

Finally, my husband and I had a friend who worked with us when all three of us were in our early 20s. He got laid off and took a new job in SLC area. We visited him out there. He had a good job, nice car, etc. but was having a very difficult time finding women to date because apparently if you were not a Mormon, most of them were not interested, and he did not wish to become a Mormon. After about 8 or 10 years of this, he moved to the PacNW and then got married.

I have known and worked with several very happily married professional Mormons, so I don’t think they’re terrible or anything, but I have no reason to doubt what I’ve heard and read over and over. They want you to be a Mormon, and if you’re not going to join up, then they will be nice but they don’t really want to have a close relationship with you.

Edited to add, if the Mormons attend university in Utah, or any school with a big percentage of Mormons, they just continue on with their activities with the other Mormon women. A lot of the women do finish college and even go on missions themselves now, but they get married by about their mid-20s.** I worked with a guy who was about 26 and a new law school graduate and both he and his wife (who also had a degree) had already finished school, each done a mission, and had 2 kids.**

Whoa! That is speedy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Whoa! That is speedy.

They don’t waste time. I think she was having the children while he was in law school. They were quite young, like toddler and baby.

 

[Norseman82]

I think it’s important to mention people take the Church route because they love God more than the desires of their own flesh. .

This right here is the exact attitude that is the problem. Just because one takes the Church route does not mean that one’s needs go away. One still needs food, water, shelter, clothing. And for those who cannot handle lifelong celibacy and are eligible for marriage, one needs a spouse. Singleness can be an occasion of sin, and we need to navigate through this life in order to get to the next.

Many people forget the biblical lesson of Jacob and Esau: when one is starving, one will sell their birthright just to get a bite to eat. Also, the lesson of the Greek widows in Acts: they were not given lectures that they were out of line for seeking their fair share of the distributions nor told that they should just be satisfied with loving God.

I wonder how Mormons are bucking this trend. They’re average marriage age hasn’t followed with the rest of the West.

And speaking of the Church route, if it were a competition, Mormons would beat all other Christians by a long shot.

Maybe the Mormons do a better job of “having each others’ backs” than modern American Catholics?

 

[Norseman82]

Back to the original topic: has it been brought up that in some communities a lot of the men are unavailable due to being incarcerated or because of criminal records?