Missing Prayers

[adam26]

I guess to get deeper into my question/gripe about the prayers I cannot wrap my head around why there is not a universal Mass anymore. Why can some prayers be omitted (Penetential Rite) and other churches use it every week? Some use some Latin, some use none, etc…I know it doesn’t validate a Mass but I feel it can hurt because we are supposed to be all on the same page correct?? Again, not to compare to the TLM, but as it is where I come from and every prayer book is the same and every Mass the same, I don’t understand how there cannot be a concrete universal way to say the Mass in the OF. Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut and for the answers already given.

 

[oknazevad]

Unless there’s an outright omission (which would be incorrect), the penitential rite is One of the places where there’s multiple options for a celebrant to select. While it seems, from my reading of history, that these options were intended for use on weekdays, they have become part of the regular Roman practice. They are part of the universal practice.

The other issue with the options, though, is that, unless they are consistently used, some options become unfamiliar to the faithful. Certainly, the form B Penitential Rite is far less used than A (the Confeitor) or C (which interlaces the Kyrie), if the responses to my poll are accurate. And the differing Eucharistic Prayers have their own proportions of use. Heck, if the Prayer(s) for Various Needs were dropped from use outright, I doubt anyone would notice.

 

[curlycool89]

…and a new translation is rolling out around advent of 2011?? Not to be sarcastic but I mean c’mon, how many times are we going to translate the Mass??

For starters, there needs to be a new translation every time a new “version” of the Latin typical edition comes out (a new “version” usually doesn’t change much, a few tweaks and new propers for Saints canonized since the last typical edition).

I miss the Penetential Act (Confiteor) at our Mass. The priest now says “Let us now call to mind the times we have sinned” and then there is a 20 second pause and they go into the Kyrie.

The Confiteor (or what would be the OF equivalent) is said all the time at Masses I’ve been at here.
Just to speak to a couple others:

• incense is not often used because many people are sensitive to smells/scents
• bells are rarely used (I know that they use them at St. Patricks Cathedral in NYC because I used to listed to that Mass on the radio), but I did once attend a parish that regularly did use them
• The Canon is rarely used, and I wish that it would be used more. I was extremely lucky to attend a Mass on Christmas Eve that happened used it.

I guess to get deeper into my question/gripe about the prayers I cannot wrap my head around why there is not a universal Mass anymore. Why can some prayers be omitted (Penetential Rite) and other churches use it every week? Some use some Latin, some use none, etc…I know it doesn’t validate a Mass but I feel it can hurt because we are supposed to be all on the same page correct?? Again, not to compare to the TLM, but as it is where I come from and every prayer book is the same and every Mass the same, I don’t understand how there cannot be a concrete universal way to say the Mass in the OF. Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut and for the answers already given.

Just to speak to the Confiteor, there are 3 Penitential Rites that can be used. The Confiteor is one, the Kyrie is another, and there’s a third that I’ve only heard once at a Mass in French (and since I don’t even know the responses in English because I’ve never seen it used before I was totally lost) which is a back and forth response between the priest and the people. They’re all valid options.

Again, as others have said you should take a look at the Order of the Mass and see what’s actually there, because you seem to have a lot of misconceptions.

 

[Bbigam]

…and a new translation is rolling out around advent of 2011?? Not to be sarcastic but I mean c’mon, how many times are we going to translate the Mass??

The current English translation, which is finally getting replaced, has been in use since the 70s. So this is only the second promulgated English translation of the Roman Missal for the Mass in the Ordinary Form. And this new translation’s going to be way better than the current one.

 

[laszlo]

Thank you for your honesty. I was getting tired of the response “because the Pope said so” as that answers nothing for me.

Your point that it was to hopefully bring more faithful to the Mass is valid and something I believe. I wonder your thoughts on also if the removal of the communion rail was also something done for that cause? I am slowly learning as I go but to me what seem to be needless removals from Mass (communion rail, certain prayers) are to others normal. I guess we never stop learning.

I had to reflect for the first sentence: For Catholics the Pope is the vicar of Christ, his voice is the one which primarily counts.

St Pius V froze the Liturgy (except the actual calendars) this was gradually opened beginning St Pius X.

The Tridentine Mass made the laity mere spectators, listeners, and practically in may times only the ones present only without any participation. They prayed the station of the cross, the rosary, sung hymns loosely related to the mass, or read the words of the missal, while the priest and only the priest with minimal help of the servers celebrated the Mass.

In my time everyone saw that it is wrong, active participation needed. To promote this the prayers/chants of the laity became part of Mass, and the faithful were taught to understand the mass. This required the simplification, the removal of the duplications, illogical sequences (e.g. Ita Missa est them a series of important looking prayers) and so on.

The pope (Paul VI) said so, that this is good and necessary, and if you what carefully how the TLM masses make everything to get the laity involved. I my time in every parish there was only one Missa Cantata in a weekend, the second was allowed only for a funeral on the day of the death. Now in my traditional Church out of three Masses three are Missa Cantata, yesterday even all with incense; and even the weekday masses are closer to the Missa Cantata than to the Low Mass.

The communion rails is different problem. When I left Hungary in 1981 the communion rails were intact, there was confession before each mass and less than half of the participants received the Blessed Sacrament naturally kneeling at the rails and to tongue.

When I arrived here in 1982 everyone was herded to the communion. And what is worse, there was no opportunity for confession. The ‘everyone lined up for communion’ required the removal of the rails and the receiving by standing, this can be distributed and made in the fraction of time. This was not the will of the pope, the popes (Paul VI and John Paul II) were practically forced to allow it.

The essential change was herding everyone to the communion, and I believe that was deliberate action by the modernist

As far as I know even traditional churches follow this trend, the concept of the mortal sin is redefined at least tacitly. May be this is the truth and the Eucharist is food for saints and sinners alike.

 

[Phemie]

Still have not received a concrete answer on that one, except because that is how it is.

When the Mass was revised after Vatican II, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy called for:
21. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. For the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

*The prayers at the foot of the altar fall into this category. Originally, prayers that were said in private by the priest to prepare himself to celebrate Mass, they eventually crept in to the start of Mass itself. *

In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community.

None of these used except votive candles. No bells, no paten, no chant, no latin, no chalice veil and no statues. (It is a “temp” place of worship as they call it but still would it hurt to put some statues in??)

Many of those things depend on the pastor’s will to use them.

Confiteor never used at our church.

What prayers are used during Mass depend solely on the celebrant.
Our pastor uses the Confiteor (form A) 90% of the time.

The missionary, who often celebrates Mass for us when the pastor is away, says “Let us call to mind our sins” and then skips any of the 3 forms and goes directly to the Kyrie.

In my former parish the priest used form B 95% of the time.

 

[adam26]

Many of those things depend on the pastor’s will to use them…

True, but without statues of any kind (Angels, St. Joseph, Blessed Mother, Saints, etc…) and just a table on the altar it feels like a Prodestant Church to me. It may be silly to a lot of you but a bare altar and chruch shows no reverence to me.

 

[curlycool89]

True, but without statues of any kind (Angels, St. Joseph, Blessed Mother, Saints, etc…) and just a table on the altar it feels like a Prodestant Church to me. It may be silly to a lot of you but a bare altar and chruch shows no reverence to me.

See, there’s a couple schools of thought with that.

This past week, I had the pleasure of being in Montreal for Rise Up. We went to Mass at St. Joseph’s Oratory Crypt Church and Cathédrale Marie-Reine-du-Monde (on New Year’s Eve at the second, which included both bells and incense). I also saw the Oratory Basilica and St. Patrick’s Basilica. They are all stunningly beautiful church’s. They are a testament to God’s glory and awesomeness.

On the other hand, there is the idea of beauty in simplicity. Let’s face it, if I were to attend adoration at a beautiful Basilica I would find it hard to keep my mind from being distracted. You can directly relate it to the idea of sitting in silence in prayer. To just sit in the silence and ask God to speak to you in your heart can be overwhelming. You are forced to confront your fears, doubts, and uncertainties after you strip away all the layers of defence and distraction the mind naturally seems to build up so as to prevent your from a thorough self-examination.
It also asks one to think about the reason why we’re at Mass in the first place. It’s not about the statues, or the stained glass windows, or beautiful domes, or marble pillars, or the music; it’s all about Jesus in the Word and the Eucharist.

 

[Phemie]

See, there’s a couple schools of thought with that.

This past week, I had the pleasure of being in Montreal for Rise Up. We went to Mass at St. Joseph’s Oratory Crypt Church and Cathédrale Marie-Reine-du-Monde (on New Year’s Eve at the second, which included both bells and incense). I also saw the Oratory Basilica and St. Patrick’s Basilica. They are all stunningly beautiful church’s. They are a testament to God’s glory and awesomeness.

On the other hand, there is the idea of beauty in simplicity. Let’s face it, if I were to attend adoration at a beautiful Basilica I would find it hard to keep my mind from being distracted. You can directly relate it to the idea of sitting in silence in prayer. To just sit in the silence and ask God to speak to you in your heart can be overwhelming. You are forced to confront your fears, doubts, and uncertainties after you strip away all the layers of defence and distraction the mind naturally seems to build up so as to prevent your from a thorough self-examination.
It also asks one to think about the reason why we’re at Mass in the first place. It’s not about the statues, or the stain glass windows, or beautiful domes, or marble pillars, or the music; it’s all about Jesus in the Word and the Eucharist.

You’re right. I could be just as prayerful at Notre Dame Basilica in Montreal as I would be at Notre Dame du Haut in Ronchamp, France but odds are pretty good that I’d be less distracted at Notre Dame du Haut.

 

[PacoG]

First, the Roman Missal itself was altered between 1962 and 1970. The changes included the dropping of the prayers you mention. Pope Benedict calls the two forms of the Latin-Rite Mass the ordinary form (the newer one) and the extraordinary form (the older one). Before he introduced those terms, they were sometimes called the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) and the Novus Ordo (NO), or just the “old mass” and the “new mass.”

This is only partially true. The Collect and the Secret prayers still exist. They are called the “Opening Prayer” (after the Gloria and before the First Reading) and the “Prayer over the Gifts” (after the Oratre Fratres and before the Preface Dialogue) in the current missal.

 

[Bbigam]

True, but without statues of any kind (Angels, St. Joseph, Blessed Mother, Saints, etc…) and just a table on the altar it feels like a Prodestant Church to me. It may be silly to a lot of you but a bare altar and chruch shows no reverence to me.

I don’t think that’s silly at all. In fact, I personally find a place as bare as that to be distracting in its bareness. It’s still the Holy Sacrifice, still the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ - but sometimes it’s hard to remember that in a setting like that! I love being surrounded by sacred images, stained glass, statues, etc - a reminder of the Communion of Saints and that we are taking part in a celebration of the Heavenly Liturgy with all the Saints and Angels.

 

[Vince1022]

I miss the Penetential Act (Confiteor) at our Mass. The priest now says “Let us now call to mind the times we have sinned” and then there is a 20 second pause and they go into the Kyrie.

The Confiteor is still part of the Mass. There are a number of options of how to celebrate the Act of Penitence (or Penitential Rite) – some include the Confiteor, some don’t. It’s up to the priest presiding at a given Mass what option to use.

I think the Confiteor is a great prayer. I am sorry if you are in a place where it’s not used. That is lamentable.

 

[Vince1022]

I guess to get deeper into my question/gripe about the prayers I cannot wrap my head around why there is not a universal Mass anymore. Why can some prayers be omitted (Penetential Rite) and other churches use it every week? Some use some Latin, some use none, etc…I know it doesn’t validate a Mass but I feel it can hurt because we are supposed to be all on the same page correct?? Again, not to compare to the TLM, but as it is where I come from and every prayer book is the same and every Mass the same, I don’t understand how there cannot be a concrete universal way to say the Mass in the OF. Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut and for the answers already given.

I think I understand your point, and it’s an excellent one. There is of course still one way to celebrate Mass as a Catholic.

ALthough, I guess I have to amend that, with Pope Benedict’s recent initiative…there are now two ways to celebrate Catholic Mass, unlike following the Councils of Trent and Vatican II until now.

Anyway…the “one way” according to the Missal of Paul VI does include more options for certain parts of the Mass than the Missal of Pius V did. Some may like the change, some not, but still, every Catholic celebrating Mass according to Catholic Church teaching did so by the currently approved Missal. So…still unity.

 

[Bbigam]

I think I understand your point, and it’s an excellent one. There is of course still one way to celebrate Mass as a Catholic.

ALthough, I guess I have to amend that, with Pope Benedict’s recent initiative…there are now two ways to celebrate Catholic Mass, unlike following the Councils of Trent and Vatican II until now.

Anyway…the “one way” according to the Missal of Paul VI does include more options for certain parts of the Mass than the Missal of Pius V did. Some may like the change, some not, but still, every Catholic celebrating Mass according to Catholic Church teaching did so by the currently approved Missal. So…still unity.

There have always been “other ways” to celebrate the Eucharistic Liturgy. Within the Church of Rome, there are rites for Mass like the Mozarabic and Ambrosian. There are of course also the Eastern Rites such as the Byzantine.

But yes, it is a change to have two forms of the Roman Rite, and to have so many options in one of those forms.

 

[Vince1022]

There have always been “other ways” to celebrate the Eucharistic Liturgy. Within the Church of Rome, there are rites for Mass like the Mozarabic and Ambrosian. There are of course also the Eastern Rites such as the Byzantine.

But yes, it is a change to have two forms of the Roman Rite, and to have so many options in one of those forms.

Excellent post. My post referring to “two ways” of course referred to the Roman Rite in the Catholic Church.

Thanks.

 

[Bbigam]

Excellent post. My post referring to “two ways” of course referred to the Roman Rite in the Catholic Church.

Thanks.

Thanks. I understand. I’m from the Roman Rite, but I appreciate the other Rites and notice that some “Traditionalists” like to talk as if before Vatican II there was only 1 Eucharistic Liturgy that the entire Church worldwide had always used, always everywhere in Latin. And of course that’s just not ever been true.

It is the same Sacrifice of course, and the same Sacrament! Just not the same Rite.

(By the way, I’m using the term “Eucharistic Liturgy” not because I avoid the term Mass, but because many of the other Rites don’t use the term Mass.)

 

[Vince1022]

Thanks. I understand. I’m from the Roman Rite, but I appreciate the other Rites and notice that some “Traditionalists” like to talk as if before Vatican II there was only 1 Eucharistic Liturgy that the entire Church worldwide had always used, always everywhere in Latin. And of course that’s just not ever been true.

It is the same Sacrifice of course, and the same Sacrament! Just not the same Rite.

(By the way, I’m using the term “Eucharistic Liturgy” not because I avoid the term Mass, but because many of the other Rites don’t use the term Mass.)

Thanks.

Great post.

You hit on a number of important topics so well.