Missing the forest for the trees

[jecs2000]

Taking a good look at the nuts and bolts of any topic to which the human mind has been committed always leaves me awestruck. The fine details of every craft are complex, intricate, and are always more complicated when you watch the craftsman up close than when you watch from afar. As humans we love to categorize and disect and scrutinize. But… when we break down the bible into minutia and then act like each detail is something worth arguing about, and that each argument is worth arguing about are we missing the forest for the trees. I mean the biblical story seems pretty straight forward. Word of God is made Human, that human has power of God, he tells everyone about it and then demonstrates this power through miracles, then he says that the right way to live is to serve others and then allows weaker men to humiliate him, mutilate him and put him to death in an excrutiating way despite his super humaness. The most powerful of all men came to earth to relinquish his earthly superpower. Service to others even at your own demise is pretty much what it came down to. If we hold this as a light to all other questions don’t the answers become obvious or make them irrelevant. Saved by water, saved by faith, works, grace, evolution, creation… does any of this matter if our calling is to live as Christ lived. And no one can deny that all the fancy talk in the world can’t take away from the fact that the way Christ lived was simply: superman came to earth to be murdered and show everybody that relinquishing one’s power to others is superior to exercising one’s power over others, this reliquishment of power is the pinnacle of human existence and is what God wants. And before Jesus dies just to drive the point home he asks his father in heaven to forgive his murderers for their stupidity. Simplified: We have the right to judge no one. We are obligated to serve our brother and thank God for our existence. Everything else is just a bunch of mental gymnastics. Mental gymnastics is fun, but in the end maybe not really as productive as serving one another and making the Kingdom here on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[meltzerboy]

Taking a good look at the nuts and bolts of any topic to which the human mind has been committed always leaves me awestruck. The fine details of every craft are complex, intricate, and are always more complicated when you watch the craftsman up close than when you watch from afar. As humans we love to categorize and disect and scrutinize. But… when we break down the bible into minutia and then act like each detail is something worth arguing about, and that each argument is worth arguing about are we missing the forest for the trees. I mean the biblical story seems pretty straight forward. Word of God is made Human, that human has power of God, he tells everyone about it and then demonstrates this power through miracles, then he says that the right way to live is to serve others and then allows weaker men to humiliate him, mutilate him and put him to death in an excrutiating way despite his super humaness. The most powerful of all men came to earth to relinquish his earthly superpower. Service to others even at your own demise is pretty much what it came down to. If we hold this as a light to all other questions don’t the answers become obvious or make them irrelevant. Saved by water, saved by faith, works, grace, evolution, creation… does any of this matter if our calling is to live as Christ lived. And no one can deny that all the fancy talk in the world can’t take away from the fact that the way Christ lived was simply: superman came to earth to be murdered and show everybody that relinquishing one’s power to others is superior to exercising one’s power over others, this reliquishment of power is the pinnacle of human existence and is what God wants. And before Jesus dies just to drive the point home he asks his father in heaven to forgive his murderers for their stupidity. Simplified: We have the right to judge no one. We are obligated to serve our brother and thank God for our existence. Everything else is just a bunch of mental gymnastics. Mental gymnastics is fun, but in the end maybe not really as productive as serving one another and making the Kingdom here on earth as it is in heaven.

In a way, I think you have a good point. I also wonder sometimes whether our differences (not only between Christian faiths but also between Christians and non-Christians) really matter so much to G-d. I realize I’ll probably be accused of that dreaded way of thinking (at least on this Forum) called moral relativism. Further, Jesus himself said that the Law is based on two principles: “Loving G-d” and “Loving thy neighbor and enemy.” On the other hand, you know the saying “G-d is in the details,” and there’s something to that as well. Even understanding, albeit incompletely, what the nature of G-d is, which for most Christians consists of one nature and three distinct–but not separate or sharing–co-equal persons is a topic of much discussion and debate between Christians and, even more so, between Christians and non-Christians. (I notice you call Jesus a superman, but for the vast majority of Christians that’s not an accurate description.) In addition, we must understand that Jesus said a lot of things while on Earth–some of which are quite difficult to interpret–and also left some things unsaid. These ideas have been interpreted by the Apostles and the Catholic Church and codified in the Magisterium. Pretty soon, we have a rather complex religion which complements a simple faith. However, this is but one religion among so many others, which have their own understanding of G-d or gods, their own interpretations by prophets and disciples, their own holy works, dogma, doctrines, traditions, practices, customs, and so forth. Therefore, your desire to look at the big picture and not get caught up in the details, which may obscure the view, while a praiseworthy effort, becomes plagued by the question of whose big picture. In this situation, the details become useful for the purpose of clarifying the big picture.

 

[Abu]

jecs2000
But… when we break down the bible into minutia and then act like each detail is something worth arguing about, and that each argument is worth arguing about are we missing the forest for the trees.
Simplified: We have the right to judge no one.

Oversimplification can be very misleading, as here.

As the Word of God is given to us by Christ’s Church to toss it away as though anything goes is unacceptable.

We not only have the right but the duty to judge all actions, speech and words of anyone against truth – the truth declared by Christ’s Catholic Church through the Magisterium, Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[jecs2000]

These ideas have been interpreted by the Apostles and the Catholic Church and codified in the Magisterium. Pretty soon, we have a rather complex religion which complements a simple faith. However, this is but one religion among so many others, which have their own understanding of G-d or gods, their own interpretations by prophets and disciples, their own holy works, dogma, doctrines, traditions, practices, customs, and so forth. Therefore, your desire to look at the big picture and not get caught up in the details, which may obscure the view, while a praiseworthy effort, becomes plagued by the question of whose big picture. In this situation, the details become useful for the purpose of clarifying the big picture.

But… if the big picture is: Jesus says relinquish power and want of power to our brethren and Jesus is the light and the truth, and one who has never heard of Jesus relinquishes power and want of power to his brethren be it through another religion or of his own accord, then they would be in line with “The light and the truth” and they would be a Christian.

Just a complicated way of saying practicing Jesus-ness in which your whole heart is devoted to others above self and you love the creator above all else then you are a Christian whether or not you are a Christian (as one is defined by religious practice and/or clergy). This is my very point. The practices of a group calling themselves a church don’t make them Christians unless those practices are in line with the teachings of Christ. The most important commandments, Love God above all else, and like the first love brother as you love yourself. The truth is above religion. If Catholic church means… universal church where Jesus is the head of the church and the congregation is its body, then all those who follow the head have to be part of the universal church. (Even if they never heard the word Catholic)

Also, I can’t see how any of this could be seen as moral relativism since morality is defined by the teachings of Christ.

 

[jecs2000]

Oversimplification can be very misleading, as here.

As the Word of God is given to us by Christ’s Church to toss it away as though anything goes is unacceptable.

We not only have the right but the duty to judge all actions, speech and words of anyone against truth – the truth declared by Christ’s Catholic Church through the Magisterium, Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures.

I don’t believe anything goes. Actually everything and everyone is held to the same simple standard. We are not to violate those standards (those laid out by Christ), and neither should anyone else, but as an imperfect inheritor of sin I am no judge. Just because I say we shouldn’t judge others doesn’t mean that anything goes. All must follow the teachings of Christ and if they don’t they will be judged…just not by us. Further, I would not suggest throwing out any bit of the Word of God. My suggestion is that by pouring over the minutia of the bible and making interpretations without holding every detail under the light of a simple truth which is: *the most powerful man dies at the hands of weaklings of his own accord to teach a lesson which saves humanity * will misinform the interpretation. It is not the word of God that needs throwing out, it is flawed interpretation by making complex what is simple that needs to be tossed. And with regard to oversimplification I would argue that convolutions are typically attempts at hiding, rationalizing, or deceiving. Have you ever seen how long a car lease contract is? Contracts can be simple too. I’ll give you this and you give me that. Why all the overcomplication?

 

[meltzerboy]

But… if the big picture is: Jesus says relinquish power and want of power to our brethren and Jesus is the light and the truth, and one who has never heard of Jesus relinquishes power and want of power to his brethren be it through another religion or of his own accord, then they would be in line with “The light and the truth” and they would be a Christian.

Just a complicated way of saying practicing Jesus-ness in which your whole heart is devoted to others above self and you love the creator above all else then you are a Christian whether or not you are a Christian (as one is defined by religious practice and/or clergy). This is my very point. The practices of a group calling themselves a church don’t make them Christians unless those practices are in line with the teachings of Christ. The most important commandments, Love God above all else, and like the first love brother as you love yourself. The truth is above religion. If Catholic church means… universal church where Jesus is the head of the church and the congregation is its body, then all those who follow the head have to be part of the universal church. (Even if they never heard the word Catholic)

Also, I can’t see how any of this could be seen as moral relativism since morality is defined by the teachings of Christ.

You’re forcing me to become an apologist for Catholicism! Being Catholic is more than following Jesus’ moral teachings: the details do matter because some of them are part of the dogma and doctrines of the Church. These would include the Sacraments such as Baptism, the Eucharist, Reconciliation, and so on. This is NOT optional in Catholicism, just as following the Mosaic Law is not optional in Torah Judaism. The former are the teachings of Jesus, whom Catholics believe founded the Church and passed to his Apostles and down through the centuries (Apostolic Succession). Catholicism is not a sola scriptura or sola fide religion: it is based on Scripture, Church Tradition, and the Magisterium. And belief in the divinity of G-d the Father, G-d the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the most basic dogma of all. One cannot be a Christian according to Catholicism and most branches of Protestantism if one does not believe this.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think the details are important, but we can’t allow ourselves to get lost in them. We have to keep our eye on the big picture as well. We can err by forgetting to pay attention to the details or by forgetting to pay attention to the big picture - that is what it means to be a human with one foot in the eternal world of spirit and one in the particular world of space and time.

We have to try to keep both in mind and keep checking them against each other.

I suspect most people are inclined by their personality to err more in one direction than the other. But by the same token, we are probably more critical of those who err in the other direction. So we need to be careful to be judgmental enough of our own weakness, and not too judgmental of others weaknesses when they are the opposite of our own.

 

[Abu]

jecs2000
It is not the word of God that needs throwing out, it is flawed interpretation by making complex what is simple that needs to be tossed.

Those who assent to what Christ is teaching through His Church will have the fullness of truth – they need to try to live it.

The world is in a mess because so many misinterpret, misrepresent and mislead, and many act in defiance of Christ’s truths. The key is assent to dogma and doctrine, with the obedience of faith as St Paul emphasises (Rom 1:5; 16.26), with the St Escriva admonition to be simple but not simpletons.

We need to consider how Christ addresses His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end”. Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (8:17). That is real love – showing when they are wrong and so helping them to begin to live His truth which is found now only through His Church.

 

[jecs2000]

We are in agreement. I suppose I see pointing out errors in understanding of Christianity not judgement but instruction. I believe you and I have the right and obligation to defend the faith and point out flawed argument with regard to the faith, but to judge is up to God. After all I do not have the right to cast the first stone.