Missing the Nuns

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Some valid points. Seems some religious can be as critical of some laity as some laity can be of some religious. Some religious may want to dictate to laity, just as some laity may want to dictate to religious. And it is only criticism and opinion from fallible human beings and may be worth taking on board and thinking about carefully, or it may not. It may apply to some, it may not.
 
Some valid points. Seems some religious can be as critical of some laity as some laity can be of some religious. Some religious may want to dictate to laity, just as some laity may want to dictate to religious. And it is only criticism and opinion from fallible human beings and may be worth taking on board and thinking about carefully, or it may not. It may apply to some, it may not.
This is not about criticism. It’s about understanding where the vocations went and where they should come from. In that discussion the religious have an advantage. We came from the laity. The laity has never been religious. We, on the other hand, have been lay people, lived in families, some religious are moms and dads and have been marrid. The majority, which has never been married, has parents, married sibblings and so forth. More and moer religious have held jobs in the world. The day of the religious who goes from high school to novitiate are over. Today’s religious is much better educated than religious of any previous generation. Most religious communities do not admit anyone who does not have a college degree or equivalent work experience. The idea is to recruit men and women who have knowledge about something.

When we look at the world from which we came and we share what we see with the laity, we hope that someone out there will listen. We talking from a communal experience, many religious putting together the stories of our lives in the secular world. It’s funny because many people forget that we were not born religious, but were secular lay Catholics.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Some valid points. Seems some religious can be as critical of some laity as some laity can be of some religious. Some religious may want to dictate to laity, just as some laity may want to dictate to religious. And it is only criticism and opinion from fallible human beings and may be worth taking on board and thinking about carefully, or it may not. It may apply to some, it may not.
Agreed! Whatever happened to “Outdo one another in showing honor?” I know that this spirit of division and criticism is not of the Lord, no matter who it is coming from.
 
I can hear what you are saying, Brother, and in some instances I think you have some valid points - as I think sometimes that some lay people have valid points about religious life.
We came from the laity. The laity has never been religious.
Not of necessity or “never”, Brother. I was a religious and now in the laity by my own choice and call and am certainly not alone amongst lay people - hence I have opinions, not often voiced, if ever - re how religious life is lived out at least in some instances. I also have opinions and concepts about living out the lay vocation and verbalize more re this. Re any sort of criticism, we are all coming from our own unique experiences and very often our concepts and opinions are drawn at least in part from such and hence, necessarily, are quite limited and cannot speak for all instances without exceptions.
I do think every person is entitled indeed to their opinion and on all subjects. As Catholics however, we do have an obligation to ensure that we are always heading in the direction of truth and Truth in all things and my opinion is, generally speaking, that the majority of Catholics do so strive. We are all at different stages in our spiritual journey probably and while man is continually judging by appearances,The Lord judges the heart (Book of Samuel). Much of this opinion and concept forming does come about through discussion and debate and in these forums, either through contributing or by reading, much of this is on all subjects connected to Catholicism and can only be healthy to my mind. Just as religious can address the life of the laity, so I think the laity can address the life of religious. And as I said, I think you have made some good points re some laity and their way of life etc. Just as I think some lay people make some good points about religious life.
I wonder if Catholic laity forgets that religious were once in secular life themselves, or whether some may not fall into the laity, for example, that is being criticized/accused - just as religious are the same re any sort of outside critical or accusing comments. This is the problem with generalizing on most any subject. Scratch just a little and we are all fallible human beings called to very high ideals no matter our vocation and call from God. Secular or lay people are not called to public consecration to the evangelical counsels and hence radical commitment, but we are all called to the evangelical counsels of spirit - as I think you have said in a previous post. Hence there are some similarities in our ways of life and of course there are since we are all called to follow Christ and His Gospel each according to our own vocation and call, state in life, and function in the Mystical Body of Christ. No “us and them” as St. Paul pointed out.

To go back to the subject of this thread. Lack of priests and religious may come about through the fault of the laity, it may be something to do with religious life and the priesthood itself. It may be both. Perhaps God is withholding vocations for some reason. It could be any of these things, some of them or all of them. This is not reason not to discuss or debate reasons for sure and in all areas. Certainly after Vatican2 there was much confusion abounding both in religious life, priesthood and in the laity as to “what its all about”. So much so that we experienced a mass exodus from religious life and the priesthood. Things now are very slowly looking up again in places with new forms of religious life including secular institutes and third orders, those laity taking up ministry and dedicating their lives to it in the lay state. I think discussion and debate can help us clear all this confusion and I believe that slowly it is becoming clearer including with documents coming out of The Church. I read that every Church Council has been followed by such a period of confusion and debate.

God bless and keep you close
TS
PS I read a previous post mentioning hermits. I believe that one does not have to be consecrated publicly to be considered living the eremitical life or the hermit life?
Catholic Catechism: "Without always professing the three evangelical counsels publicly, hermits “devote their life to the praise of God and salvation of the world through a stricter separation from the world, the silence of solitude and assiduous prayer and penance.”
 
I neglected to mention that in some places seminarians and even ordinations are slowly increasing. I think too that married deacons are helping to take the massive workload off secular priests in many places. We are at a point in history, in some ways a difficult one due to scandal, post V2 and the confusion that followed V2 and nothing unusual apparently. History will continue to roll on and “the gates of Hell shall not prevail”. This is The Lord’s guarantee and reason for much Hope and working through whatever often through open discussion and/or debate. “In non essentials liberty, in essentials unity and in all things love” (Sometimes attributed to St. Augustine).

TS
 
I can hear what you are saying, Brother, and in some instances I think you have some valid points - as I think sometimes that some lay people have valid points about religious life.

Not of necessity or “never”, Brother. I was a religious and now in the laity by my own choice and call and am certainly not alone amongst lay people - hence I have opinions, not often voiced, if ever - re how religious life is lived out at least in some instances.
You’re right. After I posted that, I realized that “never” was not a good word, because there are former religious among the secular laity.

I don’t see things as a religious vs secular, but I do see people making it such. I believe that religious and secular have their respective ways of life that lead to holiness, if they are followed with fidelity. Just look at men and women like St.Giana, St. Thomas More, Bl. Pierre Giorgio Frasatti and many others who were secular men and women.

But there are often many lay people who have a sense of entitlement when it comes to religious life. I’m not a political scientist, so take this with a grain of salt and don’t take it to the bank. There are many lay people who believe that they have a God-given right to tell religious what they want, how they want it, when they want it and from whom. That can escalate into an ugly power struggle very quickly.

I’m very fortuante. This community house is within the boudaries of a diocesan parish. Our brothers help out at the parish in youth ministry and religious education. Other than that, we have nothing to do with the parish. Our ministry is Gospel of Life.

But the people of the parish are wonderful to us. We attend daily mass there. They welcome our help with the youth. Of course they know us from the Archdiocese, because we travel from place to place teaching the Gospel of Life, running programs for the vulnerable, recruiting lay volunteers and so forth.

There are times when some people have told us that they don’t agree with us on something or there is something about Franciscan life that they don’t like. There are some things about the Gospel of Life that they don’t like. But they are very gracious. When our brothers politely smile and say, “We are what we are.” That’s the end of the story. No one drags it out. We know what our neighbors think and they know how we live and what we do.

We have another house, about three miles away. That one is responsible for a parish. It’s the only parish that we run. We took it on because it’s an immigrant parish. Therefore, it’s very poor. Six brothers were assigned there, only one is ordained. But he cannot be a pastor, because he is not the superior. Our constitutions are very clear. You cannot have two authorities of equal rank in one house. The ordained brother is the parrochial vicar. The superior is another brother who is a theologian, but is not a priest.

When the brothers first took over there was some confusion among the parishioners. We call our superiors Father. We call every friar, Brother. We had a Father who was not a priest and a priest who was not a Father. People complained about it and compared us to the Dominicans up the road and the Oblates down the road. The point was that they did not understand why they could not call the ordained, Father and had to call the non-ordained Father. It was explained that they did not have to call the superior, Father. But they could not call the priest, Father. He was to be called, Brother.

There were two camps. The larger camp could care less. They accepted the fact that this is the way that we do things and they went with it. It took them time to get used to it, but they did. Then there was a smaller camp that refused to get used to it. They turned something small into a power struggle with the General, who simply said that this was an ancient Franciscan custom and that it was OK to call the ordained Brother, since all of our early friars were called Brother.

The point is that these folks were not interested in truth. They were interested in holding on to a protocol that was not appropriate for the community that was serving them. They tried every way that they could to get the community to change something that is written into the constitutions, “No friar shall ever be called, Father, Prior, or Abbot.” and in another part “The community is to be governed by the Father Guardians, for it is their mission to protect the brothers as a mother protects her young. As the canonical successors of our Holy Father Francis, they enjoy the privileges that come with that office and accept the duties and consequences of the same.”

This is an example of the kind of power that some lay people want over religious. It’s a waste of time and energy, because religious are not going to yield on things that are fundamental to their identity, whether it be a title or a particular way of doing ministry.

I remember being in VA, where there is a Trappist monastery and there were people who were trully angry because there were 20 priests “*who refuse to celebrate mass for us and we have only one mass on Sundays.” *Hellooooo, these are Trappists. Cistercians don’t go traping around the world celebrating mass. These are the kinds of points that are not worth discussing, because they’re not going to change. People don’t seem to want to accept the word, “NO.” Sometimes, we adults are just as bad as children.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I neglected to mention that in some places seminarians and even ordinations are slowly increasing. I think too that married deacons are helping to take the massive workload off secular priests in many places. We are at a point in history, in some ways a difficult one due to scandal, post V2 and the confusion that followed V2 and nothing unusual apparently. History will continue to roll on and “the gates of Hell shall not prevail”. This is The Lord’s guarantee and reason for much Hope and working through whatever often through open discussion and/or debate. “In non essentials liberty, in essentials unity and in all things love” (Sometimes attributed to St. Augustine).

TS
There is definitely an increase. I know that the regional seminary in our area has standing room only. The problem is that the region is very large.

In my own Franciscan family, we have given birth to at least 10 new Franciscan obediences since the 1980s.
  1. Franciscans of the Renewal
  2. Franciscans of the Primitive Observance
  3. Franciscans of the Eternal Word
  4. Little Brothers of St. Francis
  5. Franciscan Brothers of Peace
  6. Franciscan Brothers of the Eucharist
  7. Franciscans of the Immaculate
  8. Franciscans of the Holy Family
  9. Order of Poor Friars
    10.Franciscan Brothers of Life (my community)
We all follow the Rule of the Friars Minor. We were all founded by Friars Minor; therefore, we have maintained uninterrupted Franciscan Succession; but we serve the Church in different fields. Our lives are the same or ministries are diverse.

I know that there are several families of women religious that are also growing. As Mother Agnes, the General of the Sisters of Life said, Don’t expect to see the sisters in your parishes in the nunbers that we had them. It’s not going to happen for two reasons. 1) Those sisters who are truly faithful will follow the vision and mission of their founders and thier original community and 2) the world in which we live has produced many more urgent needs than the loecal Catholic school, protecting the life of the unborn being at the top of that priority list.

I’m paraphrasing her, because this was not something that she wrote. It’s something that she said in an interview. But she made a point that is very valid. Needs more urgent than the parish school have emerged in todays’ world. It’s unfortunate that they exist at all, but they do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Responding to JReducation’s post forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6900478&postcount=66

I can hear what you are saying, Brother. Parts of your post (I have had to give a link due to wordcount problems) rather reminds me of the power struggle going on in other areas of Church life and one party wanting to dictate to the other when Rome has made instructions quite clear and to my mind when Rome speaks, then its good enough for me - and for me it’s “how high please?”:)And this applies for any form of rightful authority The Church may place over one anywhere. “Whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it is loosened, and whatsoever though shalt bind upon earth, it is bound” And if perchance Rome has not spoken or instructed, then let liberty prevail in Charity always - for The Church is always very clear on the point of Charity and adamantly so if carefully worded in the interest of Charity. Charity is the heartbeat and soul of The Church and we are The Church and we see this vividly in Jesus, Second Person of The Blessed Trinity whom we are called to imitate and follow in His Gospel.

I guess someone wanting to dictate to me how I live my life rather than hearing what The Lord is asking of me and thus how I intend to live it is a form of persecution - and “they have persecuted Me and they will persecute you”. There is no “might” about that statement, it is very definite and a “they will” . Hence we know what to expect and well wonder if it is absent. I think there have been from the beginning power struggles in The Church and until Christ returns probably will be - power struggles and persecutions in many forms. How blest we are to not be demanded by the state our lives for our Faith as the early Church. In all things praise and thanksgiving. It is very sad where things come amiss and fall down indeed but my sadness will not end it I dont think while it can be united to the Sufferings of Jesus fruitfully in Faith. But then life can be full of the unexpected surprises and even miracles. Let us pray, including for an increase in holy religious and priestly vocations and daily - and for mutual Charity everywhere as well as Unity in The Church everywhere which is the heart and life of the Blessed Trinity.

And let us discuss and debate freely on all subjects observing these very same high ideals to which we are called in all things with no exceptions.

I am sorry you are experiencing some of the things you do, Brother, (and with things to be thankful for too, always is!) it is a form of bloodless martrydom and suffering as is any form of persecution (to endure suffering patiently with Charity united to The Cross is a death to self) - mild to be absolutely sure to what our early brothers and sisters in The Faith experienced. This, of course, is no reason not to try to set others or matters straight in Charity with Charity.
Mea culpa.
I think that is the end of the soapbox:blush: TS
 
There is definitely an increase. I know that the regional seminary in our area has standing room only. The problem is that the region is very large.

In my own Franciscan family, we have given birth to at least 10 new Franciscan obediences since the 1980s.
  1. Franciscans of the Renewal
  2. Franciscans of the Primitive Observance
  3. Franciscans of the Eternal Word
  4. Little Brothers of St. Francis
  5. Franciscan Brothers of Peace
  6. Franciscan Brothers of the Eucharist
  7. Franciscans of the Immaculate
  8. Franciscans of the Holy Family
  9. Order of Poor Friars
    10.Franciscan Brothers of Life (my community)
We all follow the Rule of the Friars Minor. We were all founded by Friars Minor; therefore, we have maintained uninterrupted Franciscan Succession; but we serve the Church in different fields. Our lives are the same or ministries are diverse.

I know that there are several families of women religious that are also growing. As Mother Agnes, the General of the Sisters of Life said, Don’t expect to see the sisters in your parishes in the nunbers that we had them. It’s not going to happen for two reasons. 1) Those sisters who are truly faithful will follow the vision and mission of their founders and thier original community and 2) the world in which we live has produced many more urgent needs than the loecal Catholic school, protecting the life of the unborn being at the top of that priority list.

I’m paraphrasing her, because this was not something that she wrote. It’s something that she said in an interview. But she made a point that is very valid. Needs more urgent than the parish school have emerged in todays’ world. It’s unfortunate that they exist at all, but they do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I am certainly seeing more religious habits than say 10 years ago and also some priests wearing the collar again. I tend to think that the religious habit and the collar will not die out at all, rather that those in habit and those not, priests wearing collar and those in secular clothing will continue to develop side by side. Be interesting to see where we are at the end of the next ten years.
 
I am certainly seeing more religious habits than say 10 years ago and also some priests wearing the collar again. I tend to think that the religious habit and the collar will not die out at all, rather that those in habit and those not, priests wearing collar and those in secular clothing will continue to develop side by side. Be interesting to see where we are at the end of the next ten years.
The habit and collar certainly have their place. I wear both (not at the same time). LOL

But I do not think any less of my coiunterparts in other communities who do not have a habit. They too are good holy men and women. They are on the same road as I am. I certainly understand the good reasons for not wearing a habit or a collar and I just ignore the bad reasons. This is what the Holy See does too.

I would suggest that all Catholics assume this posture. Understand the good reasons and ignore the bad reasons; but whatever you do, file the habit question with your cookie recipes, not in your medicine chest. The point is that the habit question is not that important. In the end, the habit works only when and where it’s supposed to work.

The spiritual director for our house is an OMI. They have never had a habit. They are religious, but they have always looked like seculars. However, we have a very holy spiritual director. Then you have the Legion of Christ. They had a cassock from the beginning. Look at that mess. Their members are good and holy men, but the habit did not stop the mess from happening.

The point that I’m making is avoid giving the habit more attributes than it has. It is a symbol and it can be very effective in the right situation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
in blunt terms, IMO the reason for the lack of priestly and religious vocations in most places is the fact that most Catholics contracept. Fewer children, fewer vocations. And the same attitude that fosters the contraceptive mentality militates against viewing children as a gift from God and a life of service to God and his Church as having value in and of itself.
I agree with this. Fewer children means fewer vocations. And if married couples do not see children as a gift from God, neither are they willing to have their children commit to the service of God.

I was lucky enough to be taught by sisters in grade school–the Sisters of Charity, who naturally wore the habit and had a convent next to the school. Many of them also taught in the high school. And I had some Benedictine sisters–at least they had O.S.B after their names–who not only taught in a Catholic community college but actually founded the college.

Unfortunately many orders of sisters seem to have abandoned the charism of teaching.
 
The habit and collar certainly have their place. I wear both (not at the same time). LOL

But I do not think any less of my coiunterparts in other communities who do not have a habit. They too are good holy men and women. They are on the same road as I am. I certainly understand the good reasons for not wearing a habit or a collar and I just ignore the bad reasons. This is what the Holy See does too.

I would suggest that all Catholics assume this posture. Understand the good reasons and ignore the bad reasons; but whatever you do, file the habit question with your cookie recipes, not in your medicine chest. The point is that the habit question is not that important. In the end, the habit works only when and where it’s supposed to work.

The spiritual director for our house is an OMI. They have never had a habit. They are religious, but they have always looked like seculars. However, we have a very holy spiritual director. Then you have the Legion of Christ. They had a cassock from the beginning. Look at that mess. Their members are good and holy men, but the habit did not stop the mess from happening.

The point that I’m making is avoid giving the habit more attributes than it has. It is a symbol and it can be very effective in the right situation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I hear what you are saying, but I’m not sure I totally agree.

If an order, congregation or association does not require a habit, than fine, I will try and understand, even though I really don’t fully get that. But the habit was meant to transform the world and at one time, it certainly did. Nearly every Catholic had some exposure to the religious, if by no other means, than at least by seeing one in habit. Today, with less religious and priests, combined with the fact that to many do not wear the habit or collar, they can no longer be, at least visually speaking, the transforming figures that they once were. I feel that the religious need to be in habit to be seen, and hence to have some effect on the common lay person. Honestly, when I see a religious in secular clothing, I wonder to myself just how holy can this person be that he would not want to show the world that he is a religious? I know that’s wrong-headed and I shouldn’t think like that, but my human nature, along with my age, makes me ask the question.

The normal parishoner has almost zero exposure to the religious and I feel that if he does come in contact with one, he should at least know it…😊

But I will try and take your advice and understand the good reasons and put away my bad ones…😉
 
I hear what you are saying, but I’m not sure I totally agree.

If an order, congregation or association does not require a habit, than fine, I will try and understand, even though I really don’t fully get that. But the habit was meant to transform the world and at one time, it certainly did. Nearly every Catholic had some exposure to the religious, if by no other means, than at least by seeing one in habit. Today, with less religious and priests, combined with the fact that to many do not wear the habit or collar, they can no longer be, at least visually speaking, the transforming figures that they once were. I feel that the religious need to be in habit to be seen, and hence to have some effect on the common lay person. Honestly, when I see a religious in secular clothing, I wonder to myself just how holy can this person be that he would not want to show the world that he is a religious? I know that’s wrong-headed and I shouldn’t think like that, but my human nature, along with my age, makes me ask the question.

The normal parishoner has almost zero exposure to the religious and I feel that if he does come in contact with one, he should at least know it…😊

But I will try and take your advice and understand the good reasons and put away my bad ones…😉
There are many reasons why a religious would not wear a habit or a collar. Some are valid and some are nonsense, like everything in life, right?

I won’t go into the nonsense reasons. They sort of speak for themselves. But there are valid ones too. Let’s look at these.

I know the Brothers of Mary and Mother Teresa’s Missionary Brothers of the Poor. Neither group has ever had a habit. The founders forbade it. Fr. Chaminade did not allow the Brothers of Mary to wear a habit. They were to wear shirts and ties. Mother Teresa demanded that her brothers look like the poor Indian man. They wear a white shirt and slacks. This was revealed to these founders by Christ. This is what Jesus wants and how he wants it. Therefore, we accept that.

I also know that the Daughters of Charity are not supposed to wear a habit, because they are not nuns. They’re not even sisters. When Vicent de Paul founded them there were no congregations of sisters. There were only nuns. Vincent wanted women to serve the poor in the streets of Paris. He deliberately circumvented Canon Law by writing into the constitution of the Daughters that they were not to make perpetual vows. They renew their vows every year. They never make final vows. By not making final vows, they are not canonically consecrated religious. Thus they are not bound to the same rules and customs as women religious.

As history would have it, they became identified with the dress of the French peasant, which Louise de Marillac wore. The Daughters dearly loved Louise, just as the American sisters dearly loved Elizabeth Seton. They began to imitate their dress and it became their custom. Since these were internal customs, not Church laws that bound them, they have the canonical right to abandon them. They abandoned their habits because they are not consecrated women religious. They are an institute of apostolic life. Therefore, they don’t have to look like sisters. They choose not to look like sisters.

When I first arrived in South Florida, the heat in our pregnancy centers, the homes of the sick and dying, the shelters was oppressive. It still is. The traditional habit the I wore became a health issue. We have two habits, one for daily use and the other for emergencies. The decision was made to modify the daily habit. There is an ancient work habit that was worn by the Capuchins. It’s a short tunic, with a cowl, that reaches down just below the hips. It has no chord and no side rosary. You wear it with work pants. This was perfect. It was cooler, easier to keep clean, cheaper to make, and you can pull it off if you need to do some house cleaning or something dirty. It has a Tau over the chest. I also have a Roman collar that I never wear, because it’s not necessary. I have a work habit.

The cost to make a full Franciscan habit is $270.00. We can’t afford to have one for every day. It’s cost prohibitive and the rule says that we may not have more than two habits anyway. You do your best to stay within the rule and to be practical.

If anyone wants to see what a habit goes for these days visit this site. gloryandpraisevestments.com/ They’re not cheap. What was once the dress of the poor is no longer the case.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This is indeed a very informative thread. The insights from the vowed religious posting here sheds a lot of light on things most of us laity most likely weren’t aware of as far as the “inner workings” of religious orders, both male and female.

Having been born in the 50’s and educated in traditional pre V2 Catholic schools (K thru 12 and staffed by habited Sisters as well as Bothers and Priests) I find it very sad that the traditional ways I grew up with have essentailly vanished. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think (most) Catholic schools would ultimately be entirely staffed by lay people and that it would all change so radically. This is NOT to say that lay faculty are not good.

Do I miss the nuns ? Absolutely !
The real tragedy here is that this generation of kids rarely encounter Sisters and Nuns today. Young girls aren’t exposed to vocations these days as in the past. How can we expect future vocations from this generation when religious are not readily identifiable ?

I would venture to say that the only exposure to Sisters and Nuns for todays kids is what they may happen to see in an old movie or read about in a book, not in their home parish and school. This probably holds true for boys as well in regard to their exposure to male religious.

Doctors and Dentists wear (if you will) “uniforms”. Policemen wear uniforms. The mailman wears a uniform. Bus drivers wear uniforms. The vet I take my cat to wears a uniform. My truck mechanic and his staff wear uniforms.

How do we honestly expect our young people to even be made aware of vocations in the church when the parish priest dresses like any Joe Blow on the street, doesn’t want to be addressed as “Father” and if there even IS a “Sister” in the picture, she probably looks like any other woman walking around and doesn’t even use the word “Sister” when referring to herself.

And these communities wonder why they have no new recruits.
We are now realizing how ill thought out the reforms of V2 were in regards to religious life.

If you’re a religious, DRESS like one.
 
**If you’re a religious, DRESS like one./**QUOTE]

Bold is mine.

Remember what I shared above. Religious have a grave moral duty to conform ourselves to the mind of our founders and the mission of our institutes. For example, we cannot tell the Brothers of Mary or the Missionary Brothers of Charity “if you’re a religious, DRESS like one,” when Mother Teresa nd Fr. Chaminade were very clear in their initial directions, not to appear as religious, each for their specific reasons.

Mother Teresa wrote to the bishop of Calcutta that her sisters were not to dress as sisters, because Jesus had revealed to her his wish that they dress and live like Indian holy women. That’s how their habit came about. It’s not a traditional religious habit. What made them stand out was the fact that there was this large group of Indian women all dressed in the same sari. What makes her brothers stand out is this large group of men picking up the poor on the streets, all professing to be Christians. They have no shortage of vcoations The brothers are now on four continents. Those who move among the poor know them well and consider them to be very holy men.

My community, while we do have a habit that is based on the very sketchy discription that St. Francis left in the rule, does not have a common habit. We have over 100 different versions of the Franciscan habit. Francis said that it had to be a tunic, with a cowl and a chord. Today you have tunics down to the floor and tunics down to the hips. Other tunics are down to the knees. All have a cowl and chord. The largest group wears brown, with a caperone. Others wear it without the caperone. Some have scapulars, others have shoulder capes. Some are in grey, others in brown and many in black. You can walk into some friaries and find two different colored habits. For example, you can walk into the Conventual Franciscan friary and you will find some in grey and some in black, all with the same cut In my house you will find everyone in grey, with a cowl, no shoulder cap, no caperone, no scapular, with a Tau over the chest. The variations are as many as there are branches of the same order. If you ask, do Franciscan men wear habits? The answer is affirmative. If you ask is the habit a uniform, the answer is negative. It is a uniform in that the individual wears the same thing daily. It is not uniform to the entire order.

The habit was of such little importance to Francis and Clare that they mention is in two sentences when describing the manner of receiving novices. The focus of that chapter of the rule is on the novice and the rite of reception. They go on for pages on that subject. When one looks at a rule in this context and sees someone like St. Francis mention obedience over 500 times, poverty over 1,000 times, prayer over 500 times, and the habit appears only once and then he and Clare both say, “If the superior believes that something else is more appropriate according to times, culture, climate and needs, then let the superior decide.”

But then you see Francis say that the brothers must always obey, even the most corrupt authorities, as long as they are not calling you to sin and that no superior can dispense you from this, nor is this ever to be debated, it gives you the very clear message of the priorities and vision of the man.

When speaking about habits, we have to read what the founders told their sons or daughters in their entirety. That gives us a better picture. Mother Teresa herself mentions the sari in her constitutioins, but left it open to the sisters to democratically vote it out. However, she did also said that they were never to look like European sisters and this was never to be democratically introduced. This was not up for negotiations. You can see that her enfasis is on the avoidance of appearing to look like European women religious, because this is a congregation that Christ wants to be truly Indian, not European, American, or other. To this day, they not only dress like Indians, but they include may practices in the way that they pray and do other things that come from Hinduism. Even when they setup houses in America, their dress is Hindu. Their manner of praying is Hindu. The names of their houses are often Hindu names. But it has not hurt them. They have many non-Indian men and women in their congregation.

The same is true about other religious families. Let’s encourage the religious to obey and be faithful to the vision of their founders. If that includes a habit of some kind, then they should comply out of fidelity and obedience. If the founder discouraged it, did not think it was important or forbade it, then let us encourage them to do accordingly. The holiness of our religious depens on their fidelity to their charism. Vicent de Paul, St. Francis, St. Clare, and Mother Teresa were not post Vatican II.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Br. JR,
I was always under the impression that each religious order made their own habits “in house” and that there were members within the given order that did the sewing.

My mother was a seamstress and often sewed for the Sisters who taught us, to help out with the habit making. The habits were recycled and altered to fit as needed. I imagine a nuns habit was a lot more complicated to make, but I don’t ever remember cost being an issue. (Of course, they didn’t ever take up secondary collections on Sundays for the nuns clothing. lol)

The priests and brothers who taught in our high school wore traditional cassocks and Roman collars…don’t know if those were considered to be 'habits"or not, but they were much more “substantial” than say an altar boy cassock and made of heavier material, had a lot of pleats and more complicated sleeves. They never wore anything else in those days…they were always dressed in that cassock.
 
Br. JR we cross posted above.

I understand your point about the origin(s) and evolution of habits as they pertain to a given order. But, if a habit was originally in the founding constitution of a given order, with specifications for such dictated by the founder/foundress, how can it be that so many orders went against the mandates of V2 and ultimately abandoned the habit completely, and were allowed by Rome to do so ?

I don’t have the exact quote from Documents of Vatican ll in front of me, regarding the modification of the religious habit, but I highly doubt that a Sister wearing blue jeans and a pink blouse and no veil is considered to be wearing a 'habit".

My question is why wasn’t the mandate from V2 enforced ?
 
Br. JR,
I was always under the impression that each religious order made their own habits “in house” and that there were members within the given order that did the sewing.

My mother was a seamstress and often sewed for the Sisters who taught us, to help out with the habit making. The habits were recycled and altered to fit as needed. I imagine a nuns habit was a lot more complicated to make, but I don’t ever remember cost being an issue. (Of course, they didn’t ever take up secondary collections on Sundays for the nuns clothing. lol)

The priests and brothers who taught in our high school wore traditional cassocks and Roman collars…don’t know if those were considered to be 'habits"or not, but they were much more “substantial” than say an altar boy cassock and made of heavier material, had a lot of pleats and more complicated sleeves. They never wore anything else in those days…they were always dressed in that cassock.
I don’t know how women religious do this. I won’t attempt to speak for them. There was a time among male religious when we have a group of consecrated men whom we often called “Lay Brothers”. These men were responsible for sewing, cooking, cleaning, laundry, shoe making and all of the things that mothers traditionally did.

When Vatican II and later, Vita Consacrata, demanded that religious return to our charisms: vision and mission of our founders, many of us found that we had committed grave sins against justice. We had limited many men to being involuntary servants within their religious communities.

There are religious communities that always had lay brothers who only did these tasks. They did no outside ministries, nor were they choir monks. These lay brothers entered those communities to consecrate their lives and their ministry was to serve their confreres… In those communities the custom continues. It is voluntary and it goes back to the founder.

There were other communities, among them the Franciscans, the greatest sinners of all in this area (not just some branches, but all the branches). we had turned our lay brothers into mandatory servants. They were not allowed to serve outside of the friary in any pastoral capacity. They were not allowed to go for higher education. Eventually, we took away their right to vote in the community. We took away their right to hold the office of superior or to serve on the community council. Then we took away their right to serve as formators of postulants, novices, seminarians and temporary professed religious. In the end, we even went as far as demanding that they refer to their ordained brothers as Father. We never called our ordained men Father. Everyone was Brother, even the great St. Bonaventure who was a cardinal was Brother Bonaventure until the day that he died. Father was only one, St. Francis and he was a lay brother, then a deacon during the last two years of his life. But he was and is Father Francis.

We were in shock when we looked back. This was never part of the original foundation. In the original foundation everyone was a brother, whether you were ordained or lay. Every brother did laundry, sewed, cooked, cleaned house, and served his brothers. Many lay brothers were theologians, professors at seminaries, missionaries, spiritual directors, chaplains, preachers and so forth. Many ordained brothers were cooks, housekeepers, launderers, beggers for the community. Everyone took a turn holding office.

In other words, everyone used whatever talents they had to serve the community internally and the Universal Church externally, provided that those services were not in conflict with the mind of the founder. This was not only true of Franciscans, but of many religious institutes of men.

As we have corrected the flaws that crept into male religious life prior to Vatican II, with all of these distinctions that were not desired by the founders, we have to deal with the reality. Today’s male religious is usually very well educated in theology, science, languages, and so forth. He is very competent in many ministries. The number of men who are tailors is but a handful. That’s because in the modern world, tailoring is not a common craft as it used to be. Men do not know which side of a sewing machine is up.

In addition, we have a great need for men in the shelter, soup kitchen, parish office, retreat house, youth ministry, street ministry, administration, religious formation, community administratin, teaching at the seminary, serving as chaplains or spiritual directors to the faithful. Due to these needs, unless a man says that he wans to be a tailor, we don’t assign male religious to those tasks. We assign them to the ministries of their religious institutes for which they have spent seven to nine years in formation. These are more important to the founder than making habits. We pay to have a habit made.

My own habit, which is very simple, costs $170.00 to make one tunic. I have two. One I wear daily and the other I wear four times a year. And yes it gets dirty and smelly. But what else can I do. Our constitution says that this is to be worn 24/7. We wash it every Wednesday.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Re forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6922083&postcount=74

Religious life sure has changed and I miss seeing religious habits and priests in black with their collar around the place too. Nothing is going to be more consistent in life probably than change. There is nothing probably so truly quite consistent as the inconsistency of life and probably most of us that are pre V2 got the shock of our life when all the changes came in and are still even trying to adjust - in some instances we may have been successful in doing so. In other instances we may still be struggling to do so.

Now it is up to parents probably to ensure that our children are informed about religious life. How it used to be and how it is now and why - and another reason to educate ourselves on religious life as it is today and a very important reason. Our children are the clergy, religious, deacons of tomorrow - we need to ensure too that they understand all branches of consecrated life now existing in The Church and another reason to be informed. We need to talk to them about God’s Call to every person and their future vocation as being either in the world for God or perhaps in The Church for God. We need to understand how to help them discern which and as parents. We need to talk to them about a Catholic life not just being in a pew on Sunday and Confession now and then, but how we should celebrate Mass and why along with regular Confession and the why of it all - we need to talk to them about The Gospel and living it. We need to talk to them about daily prayer and its importance. Firstly by example which will always speak not only loudly but sincerely. Pre V2 probably most all this came about through nuns, brothers and priests in the Catholic education system. Our parents through sending their children to Catholic schools could rely pretty well on the priests, brothers and nuns running the schools to educate their children in The Faith.
Nowadays, probably, there has never been so much falling on parents and the laity and a dire need for adult education in all aspects of The Faith and living it. There has been what amounts to a massive shift in The Church, and it has taken many of us by complete surprise and we need to educate ourselves.
Before Vatican2 actually got underway, at least amonst us in senior school in a Catholic College, there was a lot of talk about the Council being all about ecumenism. The nun who taught us informed us that if we thought that was what is was going to be all about we were in for a big shock. Sister didn’t know it then, but she was in for a big shock too. We all were.

Personally, pre V2, while I often saw the religious habit and our priests in black with the collar, I really knew very very little about the life they lived - and possibly more about the life of a priest than that of a religious. I think nowadays and often due to the internet, we know far more and need to do so.

TS
 
I don’t know how women religious do this. I won’t attempt to speak for them. There was a time among male religious when we have a group of consecrated men whom we often called “Lay Brothers”. These men were responsible for sewing, cooking, cleaning, laundry, shoe making and all of the things that mothers traditionally did.

When Vatican II and later, Vita Consacrata, demanded that religious return to our charisms: vision and mission of our founders, many of us found that we had committed grave sins against justice. We had limited many men to being involuntary servants within their religious communities.

There are religious communities that always had lay brothers who only did these tasks. They did no outside ministries, nor were they choir monks. These lay brothers entered those communities to consecrate their lives and their ministry was to serve their confreres… In those communities the custom continues. It is voluntary and it goes back to the founder.

There were other communities, among them the Franciscans, the greatest sinners of all in this area (not just some branches, but all the branches). we had turned our lay brothers into mandatory servants. They were not allowed to serve outside of the friary in any pastoral capacity. They were not allowed to go for higher education. Eventually, we took away their right to vote in the community. We took away their right to hold the office of superior or to serve on the community council. Then we took away their right to serve as formators of postulants, novices, seminarians and temporary professed religious. In the end, we even went as far as demanding that they refer to their ordained brothers as Father. We never called our ordained men Father. Everyone was Brother, even the great St. Bonaventure who was a cardinal was Brother Bonaventure until the day that he died. Father was only one, St. Francis and he was a lay brother, then a deacon during the last two years of his life. But he was and is Father Francis.

We were in shock when we looked back. This was never part of the original foundation. In the original foundation everyone was a brother, whether you were ordained or lay. Every brother did laundry, sewed, cooked, cleaned house, and served his brothers. Many lay brothers were theologians, professors at seminaries, missionaries, spiritual directors, chaplains, preachers and so forth. Many ordained brothers were cooks, housekeepers, launderers, beggers for the community. Everyone took a turn holding office.

In other words, everyone used whatever talents they had to serve the community internally and the Universal Church externally, provided that those services were not in conflict with the mind of the founder. This was not only true of Franciscans, but of many religious institutes of men.

As we have corrected the flaws that crept into male religious life prior to Vatican II, with all of these distinctions that were not desired by the founders, we have to deal with the reality. Today’s male religious is usually very well educated in theology, science, languages, and so forth. He is very competent in many ministries. The number of men who are tailors is but a handful. That’s because in the modern world, tailoring is not a common craft as it used to be. Men do not know which side of a sewing machine is up.

In addition, we have a great need for men in the shelter, soup kitchen, parish office, retreat house, youth ministry, street ministry, administration, religious formation, community administratin, teaching at the seminary, serving as chaplains or spiritual directors to the faithful. Due to these needs, unless a man says that he wans to be a tailor, we don’t assign male religious to those tasks. We assign them to the ministries of their religious institutes for which they have spent seven to nine years in formation. These are more important to the founder than making habits. We pay to have a habit made.

My own habit, which is very simple, costs $170.00 to make one tunic. I have two. One I wear daily and the other I wear four times a year. And yes it gets dirty and smelly. But what else can I do. Our constitution says that this is to be worn 24/7. We wash it every Wednesday.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you very much, Brother JR, for this open and honest glimpse into your religious order pre V2 and how things had drifted from the mind of the founders with the passage of many centuries and the efforts being made to return to the original vision and mission back those many centuries ago - and the priorities set nowadays in who does what and why. It does give an insight into the fact that while we as lay people pre V2 had religious and clergy on a pedestal and many indeed deserved it and still do, that things may not have been quite what they seemed to us as outsiders trying to look in. Things are not always as they may appear to us.

I think one must certainly have a vocation and certainly God’s Grace to live it to wear a tunic 24/7, washed each Wednesday. Such dedication truly astounds and moves to praise and thank God for His Graces made evident.
Next time I come across a Franciscan that happens to smell, I shall smile and praise and thank God rather than worrying about the odor which just may be the odor of holiness.
I am curious though. At what times are the tunic that is worn four times yearly worn?

TS
 
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