Missing things at mass

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Paten used when I was trained as an altar server, by the 80’s they as well as the communion rail were long gone. I don’t ever remember incense at an Ordinary Sunday mass. Candles have come and gone depending on the priest.
 
@kimberlycat, you make an interesting point. seeing the priest vested in all his liturgical robes for mass and then at communion having a bunch of people dressed in street clothes is a very odd contrast. It would make sense to have them dress more uniformly, although in another sense putting them in robes seems like it could lead people to assume a greater importance in what they are doing than is justified. In this climate with people clamoring for priestesses and so called lay ministers who want to assume prisestly duties at mass I’m not sure such a thing would be useful. Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist are supposed to be just that, extraordinary. In my home parish at the average Sunday mass there aren’t enough people to justify the 5 or 6 extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. if there weren’t so many aisles leading down to the alter the priest and deacon would have distributed communion to everyone in under 5 or 6 minutes which is a no time at all.
 
Sorry to hear that. It’s certainly not universal. In my parish, we have the candles during the Gospel, the patens for communion, incense (not at every Mass, but often enough) . . .
Hi everyone.
When I was an altar boy back in the 1980’s at the church I belonged to we had to stand next to the lectern holding candles while the Priest read the gospels, and more particularly at communion we altar boys stood next to the priest and deacon and held patens below the chins or hands of people depending on how they received communion.

I have not seen either of these things in my diocese at all. They seem to have disappeared. The only place I have seen these things is at mass at the EWTN chapel. One reason for the disuse of patens at communion, I think, seems to be the design of the new churches, churches in the “half round” as I call them, which have multiple aisles leading down toward the alter and make it inevitable that many extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist need to be used to distribute communion.

I always felt that alter boys using patens at communion in a sense added to the belief that what we were receiving was holy and sacred and since these are no longer used there is a loss of sacredness toward the host. I see many people at mass go up and just kind of take the host and pop it into their mouths and walk back down to their seats.

I was just wondering if anyone felt the same way or had thoughts about these things?
 
Hi everyone.
When I was an altar boy back in the 1980’s at the church I belonged to we had to stand next to the lectern holding candles while the Priest read the gospels, and more particularly at communion we altar boys stood next to the priest and deacon and held patens below the chins or hands of people depending on how they received communion.

I have not seen either of these things in my diocese at all. They seem to have disappeared. The only place I have seen these things is at mass at the EWTN chapel. One reason for the disuse of patens at communion, I think, seems to be the design of the new churches, churches in the “half round” as I call them, which have multiple aisles leading down toward the alter and make it inevitable that many extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist need to be used to distribute communion.

I always felt that alter boys using patens at communion in a sense added to the belief that what we were receiving was holy and sacred and since these are no longer used there is a loss of sacredness toward the host. I see many people at mass go up and just kind of take the host and pop it into their mouths and walk back down to their seats.

I was just wondering if anyone felt the same way or had thoughts about these things?
My son’s altar serve and they do stand at the lectern with candles when the Gospel is read. This depends on the diocese and the direction the Bishop has given over these issues. To us Patens at communion, there would have to be kneeling, which in most NO Masses, is not the norm. The better thing for you is not to look at some of these differences but re involve yourself at Mass. Become a sacristan or acolyte. It is all to easy to reminisce about the past but more importantly, it is better to become involved and maybe in your serve, get the ear of the priest to discuss the why or why not of the things you are pointing out.
 
To us Patens at communion, there would have to be kneeling, which in most NO Masses, is not the norm.
Our parish celebrates the Ordinary Form, most people receive standing, and we use the patens.
 
Our parish celebrates the Ordinary Form, most people receive standing, and we use the patens.
That is unusual. Where I’ve seen platen used, there was kneeling in an OF (NO) Mass not the standing which is what goes on in a majority of NO Masses.
 
Hi robwar, I mentioned this in my initial post that we used to hold the patens either below the hands of the communicant or under the chin of the communicant depending on how they received. The majority received in the hand and we held the patens under their hands as the priest gave them the host.
 
ah,
we anglicans or at least in our Church do stand next to the priest reading the Gospel, one each side. Not my favourite part of the role as am affected by sound balance issues. But it is something we do still in our particular Church when there are enough altar servers I will add ps We (well Deacon or Priest (does the Blessing) will bless the Gospel, raise it and carry it down the isle and read it from more or less the centre of the Church as in ‘taking it to the people’ rather than sticking to where the readings are carried out 😃
 
Hi robwar, I mentioned this in my initial post that we used to hold the patens either below the hands of the communicant or under the chin of the communicant depending on how they received. The majority received in the hand and we held the patens under their hands as the priest gave them the host.
I understand 😃
 
That seems to be true. On the other hand, I have recently read a series of articles saying that reception on the hand is at the root of a tremendous amount of host crumbs falling on the floor or staying stuck on the hand, which is a terrible desecration. Some of these crumbs are very small, and so people don’t even realize that they are doing it.
I have serious doubts as to the validity of the comment as I seriously doubt there was any actual investigation of the matter. I have been receiving Communion long enough to remember the communion rail cloth that was in use prior to Vatican 2; a little known fact is that the cloth was simply flipped back after all had received; there was no purification of it at all (as the law did not require it to be purified), and that was no scandal to the Church.,

The Church has held that if a particle is so small that one cannot discern what it is - a tiny flake from a host, dandruff, or any of the detritus that floats about, then Christ is no longer present. Your article seems to emanate from someone who is adamantly against Communion in the hand.

Further, in the western rite, Communion in the hand has been practiced for about 1650 to 1700 years ( and yes, it was only by a small group since the 1200’s). The criticism should stop.
 
That seems to be true. On the other hand, I have recently read a series of articles saying that reception on the hand is at the root of a tremendous amount of host crumbs falling on the floor or staying stuck on the hand, which is a terrible desecration. Some of these crumbs are very small, and so people don’t even realize that they are doing it.
Having gone to many coin shows where dealers can instantly tell whether a coin has a rub on it (from hand or hands touching it), I can attest to that. There is residual matter on the hands. You don’t need to see it. The coin has dropped in value already.

I wouldn’t call it a terrible desecration though, unless you intend to desecrate it.
 
In my diocese we still use the patens. My sister’s archdiocese, at least at her parish, do NOT use patens.
 
I have serious doubts as to the validity of the comment as I seriously doubt there was any actual investigation of the matter. I have been receiving Communion long enough to remember the communion rail cloth that was in use prior to Vatican 2; a little known fact is that the cloth was simply flipped back after all had received; there was no purification of it at all (as the law did not require it to be purified), and that was no scandal to the Church.,

The Church has held that if a particle is so small that one cannot discern what it is - a tiny flake from a host, dandruff, or any of the detritus that floats about, then Christ is no longer present. Your article seems to emanate from someone who is adamantly against Communion in the hand.

Further, in the western rite, Communion in the hand has been practiced for about 1650 to 1700 years ( and yes, it was only by a small group since the 1200’s). The criticism should stop.
I agree that my sources were a bit biased, and that I expressed myself in too strong terms. Nevertheless, several of the cases of Eucharistic abuse that I have heard of would have been avoirded with communion on the tongue (pocketing the host for later, deciding not to take it and throwing it on the floor, letting proper crumbs of it fall on the floor, etc).

From what I can tell, communion in the hand isn’t necessarily bad in itself (though from a quick internet search some very important theologians disagree), but it does permit problems to happen easily, especially when people lack reverence to the host. In the early middle ages and antiquity this probably wasn’t as much an issue, because from what I know people generally only took communion a few times a year, so much greater care must have been paid to the host, even by the average believer. With the communion being given every week, and every day, it can become a habitual gesture, which means carelessness, and finally, given the size of the Church, regular abuse of the Eucharist.

While I agree that worrying about invisible crumbs is too much (since it is no longer the host), when the problems and advantages of communion in the hand in the 21st century are measured up, the hypothetical advantages are just too small, and so criticism seems legitimate.
Having gone to many coin shows where dealers can instantly tell whether a coin has a rub on it (from hand or hands touching it), I can attest to that. There is residual matter on the hands. You don’t need to see it. The coin has dropped in value already.

I wouldn’t call it a terrible desecration though, unless you intend to desecrate it.
That’s pretty interesting. About the desecration, proper (clearly visible) crumbs from the host falling on the floor seems to be a “terrible” one, since it is not a particle, but an actual piece of the host. I would also be surprised if one out of every hundred (or thousand) or so hosts didn’t let off a piece this size. I looked around about residual matter, and as otjm says, it’s not a desecration at all.
 
Perhaps this is another thread (although a trivial one), but I think it seems related to the discussion in progress.

Our parish started using patens during the OF Mass Communion. Our parish is large (several thousand), and I would say that perhaps a dozen people receive kneeling. Everyone stands.

My question is–do any of the altar servers actually “catch” any dropped hosts on those patens?

I can’t imagine that they would be able to catch a dropped host. Most of the children and teenagers serving do not look like they are paying close enough attention to be able to react and “catch” a dropped host. Perhaps some of the teenaged boys and girls who have experience playing lacrosseor tennis would have the reflexes and skill necessary to catch a tiny host, but other than that, I can’t imagine the younger altar servers actually succeeding in catching the host.

If it were me holding the paten, I think my first reaction if someone dropped the host would be to flip the paten into the air. Or I would panic and lunge shove the paten towards the communicant and give them either a horrible bruise on the throat or the chest (depending on the height of the communicant).

I assume the altar servers practice “catching” a dropped host.

I doubt there are any “stats,” but does anyone have an anecdotal answer? I confess, everyone, I’m really skeptical as to the usefulness of a child or teenager (or even an adult) holding a paten. I’m thinking it’s one of those things that is being done primarily for the sake of appearances and a wishful nostalgic return to the past for those who are older and/or more traditional in their thinking.

And wouldn’t a child or teen who “missed” feel horrible? I would.
 
That’s pretty interesting. About the desecration, proper (clearly visible) crumbs from the host falling on the floor seems to be a “terrible” one, since it is not a particle, but an actual piece of the host. I would also be surprised if one out of every hundred (or thousand) or so hosts didn’t let off a piece this size. I looked around about residual matter, and as otjm says, it’s not a desecration at all.
I think it was demonstrated under flourescent light that “visible” particles do remain on the hand, glove, cloth, or whatever. That’s not an issue. I would question though those who think these particles are no longer the body of Christ, while the larger ones are. Where exactly does one draw the line? I have seen entire hosts dropped, whether it was CITH or COTT, but again, if it’s an accident, it’s not a desecration, although a paten would, yes, prevent most from reaching the floor. So then the question is whether enough precaution has been taken to prevent dropping of the host to the floor.

As far as the rail cloth goes, I have read it is true that the cloth was used in the early part of the church and women were only allowed to use a cloth when they received. I also know two councils of the church prohibited communion in the hand altogether but AFAIK this is a so-called discipline the church may change as long as there is no risk to profanity. I’ll leave it to moral theologians to take it from there.
 
Hi everyone.
When I was an altar boy back in the 1980’s at the church I belonged to we had to stand next to the lectern holding candles while the Priest read the gospels, and more particularly at communion we altar boys stood next to the priest and deacon and held patens below the chins or hands of people depending on how they received communion.

I have not seen either of these things in my diocese at all. They seem to have disappeared. The only place I have seen these things is at mass at the EWTN chapel. One reason for the disuse of patens at communion, I think, seems to be the design of the new churches, churches in the “half round” as I call them, which have multiple aisles leading down toward the alter and make it inevitable that many extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist need to be used to distribute communion.

I always felt that alter boys using patens at communion in a sense added to the belief that what we were receiving was holy and sacred and since these are no longer used there is a loss of sacredness toward the host. I see many people at mass go up and just kind of take the host and pop it into their mouths and walk back down to their seats.

I was just wondering if anyone felt the same way or had thoughts about these things?
This is another reason I find the beauty of having the EF available (even limited availability). Having altarboys using the communion plate (paten) and receiving on the tongue. It can give one a sense of awe and awareness of every visible fragment of the Sacred Host. The procession for Holy Communion utilizes only the center isle and not the three isles avail. An altarboy helps direct communicants to keep the flow orderly.

This Imo helps one gain a more full sense of the reverence owed our Lord. And it shows how our reception of the Holy Eucharist has had changes over time. History can attest there’s been times of infrequent reception of the Holy Eucharist by laity. And there’s been times when practices seem quite foreign – as noted below from the Catholic Encyclopedia (which one might gather how Christians lived during times of persecution.)
During the third century, in Africa at least, as we learn from Tertullian and St. Cyprian, the practice on the part of the faithful of bringing to their homes and reserving for private Communion a portion of the Eucharistic bread, would appear to have been universal. Tertullian refers to this private domestic Communion as a commonplace in Christian life, and makes it the basis of an argument, addressed to his wife against second marriage with an infidel in case of his own death: “Non sciet maritus quid secreto ante omnem cibum gustes et si sciverit esse panem, non illum credet esse qui dicitur?” (Ad Uxor. c. v, P.L. I, 1296). There can be question here only of the species of bread, and the same is true of the two stories told by St. Cyprian: the one of a man who before Communion, had attended an idolatrous function, and on retiring from the altar and opening his hand in which he had taken and carried the Sacred Species, found nothing in it but ashes; the other of a woman who “cum arcam suam, in qua Domini sanctum fuit, manibus indignis tentasset aperire igne inde surgente deterrita est” (De Lapsis 26). This custom owed its origin most probably to the dangers and uncertainties to which Christians were subject in times of persecution, but we have it on the authority of St. Basil (Ep. xciii, P.G., XXXII, 485) that in the fourth century, when the persecutions had ceased, it continued to be a general practice in Alexandria and Egypt; and on the authority of St. Jerome (Ep. xlviii, 15, P.L. XXII, 506) that it still existed at Rome towards the end of same century. It is impossible to say at what precise period the practice disappeared. The many obvious objections against it would seem to have led to its abolition in the West without the need of formal legislation. The third canon attributed to the Council of Saragossa (380) and the fourteenth canon of the Council of Toledo (400), excommunicating those who do not consume in the church the Eucharist received from the priest (Hefele, Conciliengesch., I, 744; II, 79), were directed against the Priscillianists (who refused to consume any portion of the Eucharistic bread in the church), and do not seem to have been intended to prohibit the practice of reserving a portion for private Communion at home. In the East the practice continued long after its disappearance in the West, and in the eighth century the faithful were able to avail themselves of it as a means of avoiding association with the Iconoclastic heretics (Pargoire, L’Église byzantine, Paris, 1905, p. 339 sq.). It had already been adopted by the anchorites, as St. Basil (loc. cit.) tells us, and continued to be a feature of anchoretic life as late as the ninth century (see Theodore Studita (d. 826), Ep. i, 57, ii, 209, in P.G. XCIX, 1115, 1661).
 
=Wojo42;11282386]Hi everyone.
When I was an altar boy back in the 1980’s at the church I belonged to we had to stand next to the lectern holding candles while the Priest read the gospels, and more particularly at communion we altar boys stood next to the priest and deacon and held patens below the chins or hands of people depending on how they received communion.
I have not seen either of these things in my diocese at all. They seem to have disappeared. The only place I have seen these things is at mass at the EWTN chapel. One reason for the disuse of patens at communion, I think, seems to be the design of the new churches, churches in the “half round” as I call them, which have multiple aisles leading down toward the alter and make it inevitable that many extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist need to be used to distribute communion.
I always felt that alter boys using patens at communion in a sense added to the belief that what we were receiving was holy and sacred and since these are no longer used there is a loss of sacredness toward the host. I see many people at mass go up and just kind of take the host and pop it into their mouths and walk back down to their seats.

I was just wondering if anyone felt the same way or had thoughts about these things?
WELCOME TO CAF:)

I agree that these items ADD to the sense of piety and give RIGHT evidence of our beliefs.

A former pastor told me when I asked similar questions that “piety is a personal choice and practice.”

I agreed BUT added that it is ALSO TAUGHT!

It is this aspect that seems to have been voided IMO:(
 
The paten fell into disuse along with Communion on the tongue. There’s virtually no chance of dropping the host when it’s receiving on the hand.
Not true. For one thing, Communion on the tongue is the universal norm, and it has only fallen into disuse where errant priests have tried to discourage or forbid it. I have seen people drop the Host from their hands before. I’ve seen people try to receive with one hand while holding a baby. Then are the small crumbs that any type of Host will leave, which are often brushed to the floor, and the ever-present opportunity for stealing a Host. There are many cultists who try to steal a Host to desecrate it, and many more young atheists who would desecrate it on Youtube or try to sell it on Ebay. Over the past forty years that it has been permitted, Communion in the hand has proven to have very little spiritual benefit.
 
Not true. For one thing, Communion on the tongue is the universal norm, and it has only fallen into disuse where errant priests have tried to discourage or forbid it. I have seen people drop the Host from their hands before. I’ve seen people try to receive with one hand while holding a baby. Then are the small crumbs that any type of Host will leave, which are often brushed to the floor, and the ever-present opportunity for stealing a Host. There are many cultists who try to steal a Host to desecrate it, and many more young atheists who would desecrate it on Youtube or try to sell it on Ebay. Over the past forty years that it has been permitted, Communion in the hand has proven to have very little spiritual benefit.
I have received both ways.

The only time I have ever dropped a Host, was when I received on the tongue. 🤷

Not once did it drop when I received in the hand.
 
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